Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[PCL_128]

Capitalism is one thing. Greed is another. I took his "capitalism run amok" to = what is going on today. Greed seems to be what is driving this country these days. The middle class is disappearing....meaning you and I.

I'm not for the communist lifestyle but I'm also not for the extinction of the middle class either which is what is going on.

Exactly.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: Why is it that only ALPA/union carriers can have a checks and balances system?

Without a union, who provides the checks and balances? The government? Don't make me laugh. As Rez always says, only pilots care about pilot issues. Without a union of fellow pilots providing a system of checks and balances, then management is free to run their corporation as a complete totalitarian regime. I prefer democracy. I want a say in my career. Handing over my fate to a bunch of slimy, greedy managers doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

The only reason ALPA ever gets a terminated pilot their job back is when the company decides to clear up all the grievances during contract signing time.....and by then the damage to the pilots finances, credit, and life are permanent, no matter whether there is pay loss or not.

Sounds like you need to do some more research. ALPA gets pilots their jobs back all the time, completely independent of contract negotiations. During my time at Pinnacle as a rep, I can remember of 4 cases just off of the top of my head of ALPA getting terminated pilots back to work, all without a new contract. Two were settled before arbitration, and two were awarded their jobs back by an arbitrator. There were plenty more cases, but I can't remember them off of the top of my head. It happens all the time. The process works. And that doesn't even count the times that management planned to terminate a pilot, and were convinced not to by myself or another rep before the disciplinary meeting. I've got pages and pages of notes on disciplinary meetings where something like that took place. You never hear of these things as a rank-and-file pilot, but it's happening behind the scenes all the time.

 

[Gandalf]

Mega:

You may not agree, but you are looking at this from a perspective most of us are not.....

The cargo carriers, (I agree have management that is as greedy as the next), are a completely different ball game than the passenger carriers. And of the cargo carriers, UPS isn't ALPA. FedEx and others are. Of the cargo carriers, UPS and FedEx are the only "success" stories and SWA and to a lesser extent AMR are the passenger "success" stories.

FedEx and UPS are two companies who basically split the cargo in this country and abroad. There are niche players who fill voids, but you are speaking from a bullypulpit most of us wish we could.

SWA and AMR....SWA speaks for itself and AMR, for all the "battles" they are fighting still have a profitable carrier with a pension. The other passenger carriers are profitable now, but will never have the power to make money like UPS and FedEx until there is consolidation down to 3 or 4 carriers in the mainline US with large international ops.

Now that you have read my rant....IMO, there is no way you can compare what has happened where you are with where the SKYW pilots are or for that matter any passenger carrier.

If being part of the team is so great, why isn't UPS ALPA? I will bet the first guy who stands up in SDF and screams that ALPA is the way to go leaves with a few bruises and a limp.

ALPA has failed to represent all pilots to the betterment of all. They have successes from time to time, but their successes generally benefit one segment of their representation and hurt another. ALPA cannot represent competing interests and win. Anyone who has lived through 20 years of ALPA and has 4 uniforms in their closet is speaking from a place you will never be.

Instead of criticizing those less fortunate than you, perhaps thanking your lucky stars you aren't where they are or have been would be in order.

A350

A350: Thank you for bringing up the crux of the problem. Here is the exact problem that we here at Skywest have. The non-alpa airlines/carriers that you have listed have one little tiny, tiny, tiny thing going for them that we don't.

THEY HAVE A UNION.

All of you out their putting down airline unions, READ A350'S POST CAREFULLY. THREE OF THE MOST SUCESSFULL AIRLINES/CARGO COMPANIES THAT OPERATE TODAY ARE UNIONIZED. THAT WOULD BE SWA, AND UPS.
THE OTHER SMALL COMPANY, IS FEDEX, OH AND THEIR ALPA.

QUESTION: If FEDEX's ALPA was so bad then are you saying that their pilots are so stupid that they wouldn't try to get rid of them?

There is no Regional Airline Pilots Association.

That being said - THERE IS NO SKYWEST PILOTS UNION. SAPA IS NOT A UNION. THEY HAVE NO, I REPEAT NO BARGAINING POWER WHATSOEVER. THEY CAN HAVE ALL THE ELECTIONS, MEETINGS, PROPOSALS THEY WANT. THEY GO TO MANAGEMENT TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME ASKING FOR THE SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME THINGS.

WHAT IS SAPA TOLD.........NO, NO, NO, NO, NO

WHAT IS SAPA'S RESPONSE......OK, OK, OK, OK, OK

Management's job is to run a business to make a profit. That's it. Black and White. Plain and Simple. Whatever the distractions of whatever job or career you are involved in, whatever duties the employees must take on, whatever the risks that the employees take on a daily basis to do their jobs, doesn't matter to them. Run it to make a profit.

Why do think it is necessary for the government to have so many rules governing employers? EPA, Disability Act, Equal Employment Opportunity, OSHA, etc., etc.

Without oversight, management of companies would sell their grandmothers soul if it made them one penny of profit. It is the function of management. It is capitalism.

The DUTY and RESPONSIBILTY of all of us is to make sure that managements don't get away with these things. Otherwise they WILL polute the air and water, they WILL discriminate, they WILL NOT provide for safety of their employees. It happens all the time and it will continue to happen. But thankfully we have some protections in place if these things do occur.

Why? Are all managers and anyone involved in management evil? No, again - THAT IS THEIR FUNCTION. MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. THAT'S IT.

So, back to the airlines. In order to provide protection for the airline pilot we have unions. Yes, there are some issues, but nonetheless we are all better off having the protections in place.

And this is where everyone gets on their "me" pulpit and whines about they haven't protected me from x, y, and z. Yes, yes, yes.

I must have missed the day in school where they said everything in life is guaranteed. That ALL career choices will reward you with a retirement full of 18 holes, endless alcohol, money, and sex.

That being said, it is wrong that the pensions have been stripped and other things that have happened are wrong. However, the way to change that is to unify.

Remember, managements are driving the erosion of our career, not the unions. It is the managements, with their excess, their greed, their mismanagement that has cost this industry. Do you really think that the unions woke up one fine day and called management and said you know what....to pay for that $700 million dollar bonus you took, why don't you tank the pensions? No, thats management.

Yes, the fact that these things have been allowed to happen is awful, but dumping our protective system no matter how screwed up it is, is not the way to go. The way to fix things is within the system. Not to get rid of it. To get rid of the protections would let managements have even more freedom to devastate the careers of all of us. They win.

Remember: Management will DO ANYTHING for a profit.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and play armchair quarterback when you have the protection of a union, no matter how crappy that union is right now.

So, this is the impossible situation that we at Skywest find ourselves in.

WE HAVE TRIED TO GET OUR OWN UNION! It didn't work.

We have tried to get ALPA. It hasn't worked.

We haven't tried other unions, but seriously. What union is going to try now? And, seriously what union would our pilot group accept?

So, we trudge along, getting closer and closer to the bottom of this regional "game". Look out Below!

Accepting that this industry will change, that in time our management makeup will change and we will be left with no protection.

We hope for the best, fear the worst. That's all we can do. Because that is all we have allowed ourselves to do, nothing more. The absolute definition of apathy.

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- CESTA? no i haven't.

Megadeath- I AGREE completely- my issue is that pilots are frustrated b/c their advancement is based too much on luck and the efforts of a management that may or may not have the same objectives as you. Think about it- especially at the regional level- what is the thing that determines your happiness and sense of security the most--- GROWTH and movement- But being union or not union does not make you the co-managers of your airline though. If you don't have the ability to make changes as the industry does-- that will get frustrating(!)

Companies fail- they downsize-- then others come in and fill the gap. The demand for aviation has grown- yet pilots have not reaped the reward for that b/c our seniority system doesn't allow us to make changes.

The entire industry is much MUCH more volatile since deregulation but we've refused to change.

Here's one good idea to start. Stop making our career's so END-loaded. Except for senior captains- we're all chasing carrots. If we evened out pay in our career- got rid of 1st and 2nd year pay- pilots could make moves a bit more easily and that would put more negotiating power back in our hands.

btw- Mega-- do you know the history behind UPS one payrate for all airplanes. I really like it for the same reasons as above (as long as you don't lose out on the concept of bigger a/c = bigger compensation- but let the whole pilot group benefit, not just those flying it.) But i don't know how it came to be there.

 

[DX Rick]

ALPA gets pilots their jobs back all the time.

Again, in you're own little dream World.
I know of 2 who lost thier jobs and ALPA never got thier jobs back.
Both at Mesa, and both snagged 121 jobs immediately.
One of them called a "A Lister" a scab, and ALPA MAG coulnd't even stand up for him. It was AH who threw him under the bus.

So before you say "ALPA gets pilots jobs back ALL the time" you better say "ALPA gets thier jobs back SOME of the time".

I'm not against ALPA, I just don't live in the little world that you do, thinking they can do no wrong.

 

[pilotyip]

Add to the list

Again, in you're own little dream World.
I know of 2 who lost thier jobs and ALPA never got thier jobs back.
Both at Mesa, and both snagged 121 jobs immediately.
One of them called a "A Lister" a scab, and ALPA MAG coulnd't even stand up for him. It was AH who threw him under the bus.

So before you say "ALPA gets pilots jobs back ALL the time" you better say "ALPA gets thier jobs back SOME of the time".

I'm not against ALPA, I just don't live in the little world that you do, thinking they can do no wrong.

I can add to that list of ex-ALPA pilots terminated by thier previous airline. Actually I think the contract makes it easier to get rid of a pilot. Doesn't meet contract obligations, termination is authorized.

 

[SkyNation]

Yep. Without a doubt. As bad as Mesa is, at least there is union protection from wrongful terminations and other issues.

no wait! NOW I've heard it all!

PCL, I think you're a fairly intelligent person, but this is one of the stupidest and most nonsensical things I think I've ever read on this forum. your resume is already such a huge handicap, but to say something so completely off the wall as this really almost discredits you completely.

 

[PCL_128]

So before you say "ALPA gets pilots jobs back ALL the time" you better say "ALPA gets thier jobs back SOME of the time".

I thought that was implied and easily understood by the reader. Maybe I'm expecting too much of you? ALPA can't win every case, but most MECs have a very good track record with winning termination grievances.

I'm not against ALPA, I just don't live in the little world that you do, thinking they can do no wrong.

ALPA does plenty wrong. I just don't choose to dwell on it, because that accomplished nothing. We need to move ahead and continue to work for an improved profession. Bit&^ing and whining about ALPA's past failures holds us back from accomplishing our goals.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yep. Without a doubt. As bad as Mesa is, at least there is union protection from wrongful terminations and other issues.

Well then you sir a true idiot.... I would take Skywest over Mesa...... as would anyone with half a brain....

You want ALPA and I want a good company..... ALPA doesn't provide for my well being..... my company does....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just as you confuse ALPA supporters with lemmings.

Not the same..... most ALPA supporters are lemmings.... they would follow ALPA off a cliff if they could...... They have no idea who their leaders are, and they have no knowledge of the issues, but they do whatever ALPA says..... they are lemmings........... and I enjoy being lemming road kill....

 

[A350]

Joe:

And therein lies the true problem....

I have seen it many times in my career....where the pilot forgets who pays his check. ALPA never paid one of my bills for me. They collected dues and they represented me when it was politically prudent or outright illegal if they didn't. Every other time they ducked and ran like babies.

Union or non-union, the company that hired me pays my salary. I never forget that. Is the company perfect, no. But neither is ALPA.

A350

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe:

And therein lies the true problem....

I have seen it many times in my career....where the pilot forgets who pays his check. ALPA never paid one of my bills for me. They collected dues and they represented me when it was politically prudent or outright illegal if they didn't. Every other time they ducked and ran like babies.

Union or non-union, the company that hired me pays my salary. I never forget that. Is the company perfect, no. But neither is ALPA.

A350

Exactly.... both sides have their faults..... and many of them are similar..... but in the end, the company provides for me while the union costs me money.....

If I have to choose between the two, I will side with the one that provides for me...... The ALPAistas can't seem to understand that.....

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA doesn't provide for my well being..... my company does....

Now that's some funny stuff.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Now that's some funny stuff.

What's funny about that? ALPA doesn't pay me.... ASA does..... Can ALPA match the pay that ASA does?..... What do you find funny Gulfstreamboy??

 

[PCL_128]

What's funny about that? ALPA doesn't pay me.... ASA does..... Can ALPA match the pay that ASA does?..... What do you find funny Gulfstreamboy??

Your company doesn't give a flying fu&^ about you, John. If Jerry could chain your ass to that seat and force you to fly around the clock for no compensation, then that's exactly what he would do.