Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[pilotyip]

How about what ALPA did to the EAL F/E's in the machainist union when they went out on strike. ALPA said, hey don't worry we can fill those seats from our union. Screw our brothers in that other union.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey PCL you did not answer this part "So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB?"

Well, I already answered the first part of the question. As to being a "scab," no, it's not the same thing. There's nothing worse than stealing a job from someone, and that's what a SCAB does.

 

[PCL_128]

How about what ALPA did to the EAL F/E's in the machainist union when they went out on strike. ALPA said, hey don't worry we can fill those seats from our union. Screw our brothers in that other union.

Wow, you're going way back on that one. This happened in the 50s or 60s if I remember right. At the time, flight engineers had their own union called the Flight Engineers International Association (FEIA). ALPA was concerned about having members of two different unions with different priorities and different goals working together on the same flight deck. It was causing problems with crew members butting heads, and ALPA was worried about it affecting safety. ALPA wanted to represent the flight engineers also, but the FE's wanted their own union and didn't seem to care about the problems that ALPA addressed with having different unions represented on the same flight deck. Having given the FE's the opportunity to join ALPA and get rid of their own union, and FEs refusing, ALPA felt that there was no way to work with these guys. It seemed that continual conflict was inevitable. So when the FEs went on strike, ALPA made the decision to negotiate with management for all flight deck positions to be ALPA positions, including that of the FE. Of course, this killed FEIA, but ALPA accepted all FEIA members into ALPA, just as they tried to get the FEIA members to do from the beginning.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

ALPA needs an overhaul and until they get their act together, they are not getting a dime from me.

 

[pilotyip]

What a lovely spin

Wow, you're going way back on that one. This happened in the 50s or 60s if I remember right. At the time, flight engineers had their own union called the Flight Engineers International Association (FEIA). ALPA was concerned about having members of two different unions with different priorities and different goals working together on the same flight deck. It was causing problems with crew members butting heads, and ALPA was worried about it affecting safety. ALPA wanted to represent the flight engineers also, but the FE's wanted their own union and didn't seem to care about the problems that ALPA addressed with having different unions represented on the same flight deck. Having given the FE's the opportunity to join ALPA and get rid of their own union, and FEs refusing, ALPA felt that there was no way to work with these guys. It seemed that continual conflict was inevitable. So when the FEs went on strike, ALPA made the decision to negotiate with management for all flight deck positions to be ALPA positions, including that of the FE. Of course, this killed FEIA, but ALPA accepted all FEIA members into ALPA, just as they tried to get the FEIA members to do from the beginning.

I flew with the ex EAL F/E's on the L-188 at Transamerican, that is not the story I was told on those long flights years ago. They said because they did not come over when first offered, they were later told too bad! you have been replaced. At Transamerican the piltos were aLPA, and the F/E's Teamsters, I asked him how come you guys don't go over to ALPA, WOW! I never asked that question again.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA needs an overhaul and until they get their act together, they are not getting a dime from me.

Which do you think will come first?


IOW...why not pay dues like the rest and help overhaul?

 

[TinGoose1]

PCL-128,

I believe that ALPA national had a strike by their office workers a few years back. I think they were going to go around that union and hire non-union office workers. It was simple poetry.

I think they should have whipsawed the two groups against each other in an effort to lower their wages. Maybe even start up a third secretarial group and shift the office work around in a bidding war against one another. They could have called the young secretaries "regional" and the old secretaries "legacy". Then when the young secretaries started working for less, the office could shift more of the work over to them with the hopes of becoming one of the old "legacy" gals. But that would be stealing a job, and under your definition a scab position. Good thing that never happened at the national offices.

-TG

 

[PCL_128]

PCL-128,

I believe that ALPA national had a strike by their office workers a few years back. I think they were going to go around that union and hire non-union office workers. It was simple poetry.

NO, they most certainly were not. I never heard a single mention of office SCABs during the short strike of the staff. In fact, Duane and Jalmer went out of their way to be respectful to the striking staffers. The offices shut down during the strike. A reasonable compromise was made on their contract, and they returned to work quickly. It was a perfect example of how labor relations should work.

 

[BE90flyer]

NO, they most certainly were not. I never heard a single mention of office SCABs during the short strike of the staff. In fact, Duane and Jalmer went out of their way to be respectful to the striking staffers. The offices shut down during the strike. A reasonable compromise was made on their contract, and they returned to work quickly. It was a perfect example of how labor relations should work.

Now I have heard it all. I will now seek out an company with ALPA. I heard Mesa is hiring, can anyone give me the good or bad?

 

[waveflyer]

I really like ANTISOCIALIST's posts- they are a good balance- especially since most major airline pilots are a walking contradiction-- Ardent republican free marketers who absolutely believe that and THEN set up the most socialist of all possible career systems.
Then wonder why they aren't happy or satisfied with a career that should be both.

Everyone here needs to read Ayn Rand's ATLAS SHRUGGED. Just to give perspective.

Then remember that she has her assumptions in her work- that capitalism uncorrupted is what we're after. How do you stop the corruption-- ie:unions/gov't- "who watches the watchers?" Capitalism unchecked is feudalism eventually and will lend itself to oppression- It DOES NEED A BALANCE.

But I HATE the COMPLETE LACK OF CONTROL AND FLEXIBILITY THAT OUR CURRENT SYSTEM INSTILLS IN OUR CAREERS. I HATE the LEVERAGE THAT WE GIVE TO MANAGEMENT IN THE FORM OF SENIORITY ONLY AT OUR CURRENT CARRIER.

Either get a national list- or get out of the way and become a guild/PAC- and let every professional here go whatever direction they want.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Either get a national list- or get out of the way and become a guild/PAC- and let every professional here go whatever direction they want.

Just added Shrugged to my wish list...

The national Sen list. is fine... but there are plenty of implementation problems and cooperation from management that will be costly...

How do we intend to address these issues?

 

[pilotyip]

pilots also

Just added Shrugged to my wish list...

The national Sen list. is fine... but there are plenty of implementation problems and cooperation from management that will be costly...

How do we intend to address these issues?

And there would not be any problems with senior pilots at an airline who found themselves junior on the national list, and upgrade positions at their airline would be filled from the national list and not the company list?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I guess no one here understands that managements job is to be able to make the company turn a profit. No profit, no company, no job for the pilot (or anyone else for that matter).

That right there is a HUGE portion of the problem, Art. The focus has gone from Quality to Quantity (of money, for the shareholders.) It's all a numbers game. If you can't return a 20% year over year profit for the shareholder, your company is a failure. That philosophy is contributing to the downfall of the industry (and US Economy) in terms of quality.

 

[pilotyip]

I am a Share holder

That right there is a HUGE portion of the problem, Art. The focus has gone from Quality to Quantity (of money, for the shareholders.) It's all a numbers game. If you can't return a 20% year over year profit for the shareholder, your company is a failure. That philosophy is contributing to the downfall of the industry (and US Economy) in terms of quality.

I am a sharholder in about 5,000 companies as far as I can guess. My funds managers buy and sell for me, it is an important part of my retirement since all of my airlines have gone out of business and I have no pension. 20% please, the airlines are happy with 2% or 3% on gross revenue. BTW in the end the consumer determines what an airline's profits will be, quality does not sell, cheap seats do.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I am a sharholder in about 5,000 companies as far as I can guess. My funds managers buy and sell for me, it is an important part of my retirement since all of my airlines have gone out of business and I have no pension. 20% please, the airlines are happy with 2% or 3% on gross revenue.

It's not an easy position to take, but I'd take long term stability with a company over Dot Com Booms followed by Dot Com Busts.

BTW in the end the consumer determines what an airline's profits will be, quality does not sell, cheap seats do.

But what is the real cost? On the whole, the airline sector makes a small portion of the pie. On the Macrolevel, it's the consumer that ultimately pays for their own greed in the form of lower wages.

 

[pilotyip]

Adam Smith rules

It's not an easy position to take, but I'd take long term stability with a company over Dot Com Booms followed by Dot Com Busts.

But what is the real cost? On the whole, the airline sector makes a small portion of the pie. On the Macrolevel, it's the consumer that ultimately pays for their own greed in the form of lower wages.

Written over 200 yrs ago, still applies today. Rule #1 everyone will look out for thier onw best interest in any economic exchange.

 

[hoover]

You're starting with a false premise. For some reason, you assume that the employees getting a fair share means that the companies won't be able to be profitable. That's patently absurd. Neither ALPA, nor any other union for that matter, wants to see the companies fail. ALPA's goal is to receive a fair share of the pie. Instead, management runs the business by the motto "the more we let you have, the less that I can keep for me." It's an issue of greed. Management refuses to allow the "little people" to have anything, because that means that there will be less for them and the shareholders. If it were up to management, every employee outside of management would make minimum wage and receive no benefits. Unions are there to provide balance and to make sure that that can't happen.

I'm not sure what you're point is here.

You're starting from a false premise as well: that you as an employee are entitled to a share of the pie. Why should you be? You've been compensated for your labors in the creation of "the pie." Why do you also think that you're entitled to a piece of it?

 

[PCL_128]

You're starting from a false premise as well: that you as an employee are entitled to a share of the pie. Why should you be? You've been compensated for your labors in the creation of "the pie." Why do you also think that you're entitled to a piece of it?

I created the pie. The pie doesn't exist without my labor.

 

[pilotyip]

more than one to bake a pie

I created the pie. The pie doesn't exist without my labor.

So what role does management have in pie making, the pan? the ingredients?, the oven?, the serving spoons. Your labour would be unneeded and unproductive without the rest of the ingredients. BTW how about the ALPA brothers doing it to each other in the proposed NWA/DAL merger, NWA pilots in DTW sounded mighty unhappy about being stapled at 1 to 4 ratio by the follow ALPA DAL buddies.

 

[PCL_128]

yip, I've never suggested that management didn't deserve their share of the pie. But management continually tries to steal my piece before I can even take a bite.

 

[The_Russian]

yip, I've never suggested that management didn't deserve their share of the pie. But management continually tries to steal my piece before I can even take a bite.

Nice!

 

[CopilotDoug]

The pie doesn't exist without my labor.

Agreed, PCL128. Management certainly has a role as well. But really man...share the wealth! It's beyond aggravating to listen to these double standards. On the one hand, we as employees are told it's the right thing to do for the company to give all we can, many times in the forms of paycuts. Meanwhile, these management types (you know which ones) continue to come up with reasons why they are owed bonuses and payraises. :angryfire

 

[pilotyip]

You don't really mean management

yip, I've never suggested that management didn't deserve their share of the pie. But management continually tries to steal my piece before I can even take a bite.

By management do you mean Board of Directors and Executive level Officers? The Director of Operations never seals your piece of the pie, the Director of Training never steals your piece of the pie, and the Director of In-flight never steals your piece of the pie. Now I will admit there are some leadership failure in the upper levels, but back to Adam Smith in 1780, everyone looks out for their own best interest. It is rule #1

 

[PCL_128]

<font color="black">By management do you mean Board of Directors and Executive level Officers?

They're the worst offenders.

The Director of Operations never seals your piece of the pie

Does it all the time. Who do you think approves changes to policies that are meant to abuse what they interpret as contractual loopholes? It's not the CEO that looks for loopholes in the CBA. It's not the COO. It's the guys like the VP-Flt Ops and DO.

the Director of Training never steals your piece of the pie

Depends. He could be in charge of determining policy that affects the pay of the instructors and check airmen. Might not happen at your company, but it happens at plenty of others.

and the Director of In-flight never steals your piece of the pie

No, she's too busy trying to steal pie from the FAs.

Now I will admit there are some leadership failure in the upper levels

Biggest. Understatement. Ever!

 

[waveflyer]

pilotyip-
" ... If everyone goes for the blond, we all block each other, noone gets the blond and of course-= after seeing us all go for her friend- none of us gets a brunette or redhead either....Adam Smith needs revision. Do what is best for yourself AND for everyone else." -A Beautiful Mind

There's more prosperity in that line of thinking. For EVERYONE, including the short sighted managers who do not appear to think long term. Of course, i get all my knowledge off of TMZ, (sarcasm) but i'm pretty sure there was a Nobel prize in Economics for John Nash's work on Cooperative bargaining theory and non-cooperative theory.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1994/nash-lecture.pdf

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

waveflyer....

win/win paradigms.... excellent! agreed!

 

[pilotyip]

Blond gets more money

pilotyip-
" ... If everyone goes for the blond, we all block each other, noone gets the blond and of course-= after seeing us all go for her friend- none of us gets a brunette or redhead either....Adam Smith needs revision. Do what is best for yourself AND for everyone else." -A Beautiful Mind

There's more prosperity in that line of thinking. For EVERYONE, including the short sighted managers who do not appear to think long term. Of course, i get all my knowledge off of TMZ, (sarcasm) but i'm pretty sure there was a Nobel prize in Economics for John Nash's work on Cooperative bargaining theory and non-cooperative theory.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1994/nash-lecture.pdf

If everyone goes for the blone, she is in high demand and can ask for more money. At some point a cheap redhead looks better.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess you didn't read the link.....

 

[pilotyip]

na too hard to read

I guess you didn't read the link.....

Just basic econ 101

 

[waveflyer]

Dude, you're not a math expert b/c you can count to ten.

"Too hard to read" .... classic

Like saying all a pilot needs to know was learned before they solo.

Or, considering how staunchly you hold on to your arguments... kind of like a convict who learned some new words in the prison library and likes to show them off... "Look, look, I don't know if you knew this, but I took Econ 101- Adam Smith wrote the Wealth of Nations- i was told he did in class and that's immutable knowledge(!) Only his ideas count and the fact that he died in 218 years ago proves i'm right..."

If it's "too hard" to read than just admit that there is more at work in our economy than just the "free hand" -- and thank god there is, btw.