AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[Dornier 335]

How is General Lee a Poser? He isn't a Delta pilot?

Ever notice his lack of posting when it comes to a technical discussion? He usually like to stick his nose into everybody's business, but on the above mentioned issue(s) he is suspiciously silent.

Still waiting for his reply when it comes to scratching the surface. Again: dead silent.

 

[sean67]

I'm not quite sure why some on the east think it's over. There is still a possibility, however remote, that she could rule in favor of the west for an injunction. It is after all, not over yet.

I personally would guess at a three way. It seems many on the east think that a three way would be great. Some on the east appear totally against this however and hope for DOH. They feel USAPA can just combine the west and east list using USAPA's internal seniority policy of DOH. How they think that is possible or even remotely acceptable, I don't know. Oh, I guess I do know, it staples the west below the east.

HP
I'm an eastie and I believe that there will be some middle ground from both sides. I'm a 99 hire and didn't expect much in the way of date of hire for my hire date. I try to see both sides on this issue..on my side, it's difficult to see a 2003 west hire above a 88 east hire...and I also see your argument of binding arbitration....above my pay grade.

 

[Hpilot]

HP
I'm an eastie and I believe that there will be some middle ground from both sides. I'm a 99 hire and didn't expect much in the way of date of hire for my hire date. I try to see both sides on this issue..on my side, it's difficult to see a 2003 west hire above a 88 east hire...and I also see your argument of binding arbitration....above my pay grade.

I'm not saying I disagree, but I think we won't see much in the way of concessions from Judge Silver's courtroom. USAPA is bound by it's internal DOH policy and AOL was created to defend the Nic, not modify it. Understand your feelings about an 88' and 03' hire. One way or the other, I think we will both be better off in a couple years.

 

[Bringupthebird]

HP
I'm an eastie and I believe that there will be some middle ground from both sides. I'm a 99 hire and didn't expect much in the way of date of hire for my hire date. I try to see both sides on this issue..on my side, it's difficult to see a 2003 west hire above a 88 east hire...and I also see your argument of binding arbitration....above my pay grade.

My guess is that USAPA will announce a membership vote on a one-time-only suspending the DOH provision for this SLI and hope that it fails so that they can be vindicated. If it doesn't they will cloak their DOH list in another name and fein an attempt at "reasonableness" and provide cover for their inevitable lawsuit from AOL when west pilots are stapled below 3rd listers.

Szymanski might as well have justified USAPA's DFR under the well known "why does a dog lick his nuts? - because he can" defense. Silver knows USAPA's slimy scheme and is hoping they will play to script so that her decision will pass 9th Circuit appeals.

DOH is done, and with it USAPA. Pour acid on the ashes!

 

[sean67]

I'm not saying I disagree, but I think we won't see much in the way of concessions from Judge Silver's courtroom. USAPA is bound by it's internal DOH policy and AOL was created to defend the Nic, not modify it. Understand your feelings about an 88' and 03' hire. One way or the other, I think we will both be better off in a couple years.

Yep,

Big picture, I want all of us to get a better life. I hope the merger coupled with the mass attrition will make all of our careers better...finally! I've been able to stay away from this mess by being on military orders, but those days are closing. Looking forward to a strong New American...together!

 

[Turtle21]

Yep,

Big picture, I want all of us to get a better life. I hope the merger coupled with the mass attrition will make all of our careers better...finally! I've been able to stay away from this mess by being on military orders, but those days are closing. Looking forward to a strong New American...together!

Military leave is so good it feels like stealing beach time as a squatter for months on end at a celebrity's house on the north shore.

Just wait till you get your back pay check contributions to your 401K for all the payments they would have made if your were active during your military leave. It makes up a little for how bad this job sucks compared to the one we left when we started military leave.

 

[Crzipilot]

From the crack WalMart legal mind of Symanski


You just can't make that kind of crap up.

why don't you paste the snippets of the West lawyer repeatedly telling the judge that it has to be the NIC award....and the Judge telling him multiple times. Read my lips, I'm telling you it doesn't. The 9th is always right, I can not overrule their ruling and I'm giving you an out by demanding all parties sit down this week. I do not want to hear the west to state, It's the NIC or nothing. She did tell USAPA, they have to consider the NIC because it was fair. USAPA lawyer explained that those statements came out around the same time that they tried to engage the West party to sit at the table and the West party refused, saying NIC or nothing.

I don't think it's over, but I do believe the premise that the West would get the NIc award is pretty much over. They have basically been told AGAIN, sit down and come to an agreement, or your going to have to wait until everything is completed and bring your complaint. THEN your going to have to prove that DOH or whatever variant that is used, (besides the NIC) is outside of a wide range and reasonableness for the Union to provide it's members a new contract pay etc etc.

I almost think she was waiting or leading the USAPA lawyer towards giving her the reason for the DOH comments etc...she touched the corners of the LUP she was looking for. And it was stated in some areas, I.E. 30-50K pay raises, security, increased retirement, etc etc etc...........

Either way, I think it's going to be a very long, expensive and hard road for the west pilots to travel down to bring the DFR suit after all is said and done.

Their lawyer has basically blown his load early 3 times now. Last bill I saw for the west lawyer was 1.8mil? And that was after the first round. Wonder what deal he has cut the west pilots....

 

[Crzipilot]

My guess is that USAPA will announce a membership vote on a one-time-only suspending the DOH provision for this SLI and hope that it fails so that they can be vindicated. If it doesn't they will cloak their DOH list in another name and fein an attempt at "reasonableness" and provide cover for their inevitable lawsuit from AOL when west pilots are stapled below 3rd listers.

Szymanski might as well have justified USAPA's DFR under the well known "why does a dog lick his nuts? - because he can" defense. Silver knows USAPA's slimy scheme and is hoping they will play to script so that her decision will pass 9th Circuit appeals.

DOH is done, and with it USAPA. Pour acid on the ashes!

You seem to be one of the few around that have read the transcripts to interpret it as DOH is dead, and actually made the West case stronger......Could you send a copy of what your reading? It really is confusing that you are so close to this, yet so out of touch with what has transpired and was ordered.

True she said usapa and the west had to sit down and negotiate something. She never said DOH wasn't fair, she just said the NIC was at one time ruled as fair, so it needed to be considered. How it needed to be considered she didn't say. I think she even hinted at using something similar to the NIC to come up with something that the two sides could agree upon.

Only problem I see with a 3 way, is it's ability to stand up in court. M/B is a new federal law, and the company lawyers are using the procedure from the old CAB to parlay that into saying it plays into the federal law. Silver is going to want some solid case precedent to enable her to order such a thing. With as new as M/B is, there isn't any precedent out there....

 

[Bringupthebird]

So Crzi, you think that Szymansky's "We never said the Nic isn't fair, but we won't present it because we think it isn't fair" will stand up as a LUP, eh? Did you give yourself that crzipilot title?

You folks who love to live in your former glory days would love to have this back in the negotiations stage, as though mediation and arbitration never happened. But unfortunately USAPA was too stupid to make sure they stayed at arms length during the SLI process and got their tit in the wringer. AOL is not going to help them get it out after all the destruction of families and careers USAPA has been responsible for.

If USAPA wants to step down and let APA structure an adults version of SLI I would bet there would be sufficient votes to oust these union-wannabees. APA sees how stupid it is to put yourself in a position where you have chosen sides, why can't you?

CRZI, you had every resource to make this a success. The only thing you lacked was integrity.

 

[Bringupthebird]

And what does HerHonor think will compel USAPA to live up to its word to present the fruits of this little kaffe klatch? One side has a history of living up to it's obligations and one has no such history. What's the threat, "Play nice or you get the Nic!"?
By her making up the rules as she goes along, it begs for an appeal which will further delay the merger. Sticking to established law concerning binding arbitration suits everyone's interests including those who stole west positions because of no bump and flush.

Why doesn't she simply read the Nicolau award to educate herself instead of relying on the lawyers? He has a much better grasp of the issues than any laywer so far. And her annoying habit of cutting folks off when they are trying to explain rather than pursuade doesn't help either.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Only problem I see with a 3 way, is it's ability to stand up in court.

Really, that's all? How about the fact that you handed these goons the Section 19 keys to ruin folks careers if they don't submit to extortion and then fail to represent them.

How about the fact that no one has elected any West representatives?

How about the money that AWA paid for the arbitrated award? Bygones? Hardly!

Sorry, you can't slime your way to victory, you gotta do it the old fashioned way - earn it!

 

[Crzipilot]

Name goes way back to my freight dog days. No biggie

I think if you read through all the talk between Usapa lawyer and silver. He explained. The west told him to pound sand and that's where those comments came from. He stated they were willing to sit down and discuss and consider (which is about all silver can order at this point. All of the west rhetoric that the mic was going to be shoved up our rears looks to have been just that. Rhetoric. Those dreams I think got squashe by silver.

What happens next is anyone's guess. The west cry that there is no one to negotiate for th or represent them. Is a little laughable. If you guys have the resources and organization to continue the lawsuits an let AOL talk for you, You can have them talk for you regarding this.

So goin along Silvers orders. Are you going to tell AOL to stand firm on the NIC or are you willing to compromise as the court has suggested?

 

[Crzipilot]

BUTB

All good questions. Section 19 I believe are the requirements to be current in dues? I guess ALPo never enforced that. And guys got butt hurt being told Tru ha to join and pay or at least pay the service fee?! I see no problem with that being enforced.

No elected west reps? You mean like phx bpr members or what?

The rest. Well not sure how that is germain to what is occurring in silvers court room.

So what compromise is acceptable to you, hbe you talked to your aol guys to tell them to hold firm on the NIC or nothing?!?

 

[TWA Dude]

I like what happened in Silver's courtroom. While the West is entitled to the Nicolau list (and I still hope that comes to pass) if Silver declines to enforce it and instead makes the West a party to a 3-way I think the West comes out ahead in the end.

The arbitration panel would start with the Nic list and adjust for the following:

-- the East gains far more from the merger than the West (pay and benefits)
-- the East has enjoyed ill-gotten seniority progression since 2007 while the West stagnated
-- the East has benefited from the TA "IOU"s on new equipment (757/190) staffing

So the East would actually be better off accepting the Nic list now and avoiding a 3-way. My guess is they'll once again shoot off their nose to spite their face.

 

[Crzipilot]

I don't think the Nic list would be anywhere near a 3 way, I'm sure that makes you guys happy and easier to swallow what you heard tues. But I have a feeling it would be more like The APA DOH list. The East DOH list and the West DOH list. Take those three lists and shuffle them into each other. Now that process would probably make a list that is close to what the original NIC list should have looked like.

If you read the transcripts. Every time Marty tried to go back to what happened 5 years ago, Silver said she wasn't interested, she kept saying, we are looking forward here, what is in the past doesn't matter.

Just my opinion though.

Again are you guys telling AOL to stand firm on the NIC??? Or have you come to something you'd be willing to accept, like Silver told you to?

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't think the Nic list would be anywhere near a 3 way,

Do you understand what is meant by "3-way"? It means the West pilots would have our own representation before the arbitration panel. If that happens we'll hand over the Nicolau List and start from there. The more important thing you'd have to decide is whether three arbitrators who've worked alongside and indeed been mentored by George Nicolau will choose to ignore his work. Do you feel lucky?

Again are you guys telling AOL to stand firm on the NIC???

We don't need to.
And BTW, we're not in control of the AOL lawyers. Of course, if we disagreed with them we would just withhold funding. You can always hope for that.

Or have you come to something you'd be willing to accept, like Silver told you to?

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

 

[Crzipilot]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots? They have taken up this case Pro Bono and coming up with their own ideas as to the direction to take the West pilots? Interesting.

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!? Or did the lawyers write that without any consideration of what the west pilots think?


So all mighty one. Tell me how a 3 way works. APA comes to table with their list. USAPA comes to table with their list (probably the East seniority list) and AOL comes to the table with the NIC. Everyone looks at it and says, Uhmmm...why is the AOL list about 3k pilots fat? Oh well you see this is the list that was supposed to be in effect if the east and west ever voted on a JCBA. It never got memorilized in section 22 so we've never used this list. But this is the list we want to start with. Oh ok, well how 'bout giving us the west seniority list and we'll start from there.......

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

So your telling me that Nicolau is the grand poohbah of arbitrators and everyone looks at him and his decisions as being altruistic and never problematic? His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

 

[Crzipilot]

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Since you guys have no control over your lawyers and all.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

So what compromise is acceptable to you, hbe you talked to your aol guys to tell them to hold firm on the NIC or nothing?!?

Explain how USAPA gets around the threat of the east pilots petitioning for an injunction if DOH is not used. Any compromise has to begin with DOH being struck from the USAPA constitution (probably easier than it sounds). That takes the first bullet out of the chamber.

The TA specifies that once a Single Agreement has been negotiated that the pilots will be integrated in accordance with the negotiated seniority list. Now if USAPA didn't like that, they could have tried to modify the TA, but they didn't. If the MOU is that Single Agreement (which the judge appears to be warming up to) and that MOU specifies that the TA goes away at the POR, then the case is ripe now for injunctive relief.

I think the motivation for fighting the west should be ebbing away since the integration with APA could make the NIC look like a bargain. If USAPA accepts the Nic and submits it to M-B for integration into the combined New American list, those who have smashed-and-grabbed their positions thus far will retain them under no bump no flush and Addington I and II are defused. No one will likely operate under the Nic list for more than a very short time (as opposed to USAPA's 7 year land grab) since the New American list will eclipse it. Those USAPA sows are going to lose their trough as soon as APA takes over, so their acquiescence to the Nic jeopardizes only their reputation among other east pilots, and let's be honest, how much is that really worth?

 

[TWA Dude]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots?

Sorry this is news to you but a little research can save you more embarrassment. Please visit http://www.cactuspilot.com/ to see who AOL is. I'll even be especially helpful and tip you off to the tab on the left which reads "About Us".

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!?

This was a hearing, not a trial. The only order issued was to submit more briefs. The content of those briefs won't be a surprise to anybody.

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

Yes, but it won't be luck. It's what's right.

His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

If you like you can research how often an RLA arbitrator redoes another arbitrator's work. Surely you wouldn't presume it happens all the time? In any case, as stated before, you'd be better off WITH the Nic in a three way. My guess if the arbitration panel tossed the Nic it would be for something less onerous to the West.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Don't worry, USAPA the spin machine will air their victory update soon enough.
My favorite bit of USAPA spin is the idea the the West voting 98% for the MOU indicates a willingness to abandon the Nic. Got news for you: 98% voted for the MOU because the AOL lawyers recommended we do so. I'll leave it to you to figure out why.