AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[johnsonrod]

No wonder Scully bailed!!!! He could smell a rat! Plus, I am sure his $100K speaker fees helped...

 

[General Lee]

If you chose the wrong airline or one that fails, too bad. You can always leave for another one.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Choose the wrong airline????? This is crazy! How does one know if an airline is right or wrong, General? Every airline flying is subject to the same woes of poor management- Delta included. Luck put you at a stable airline, for now. Today's stable airline could be the next decades Eastern. To make it even better, all of the airline pilots out there are only one fruit loop and a suitcase bomb away from total career annihilation. Try and be a bit more humble will you???

Sorry, but "choice" is the correct word. During the DL/NW SLI hearings, a FNWA pilot tried to tell the story of two Western Airlines pilots who were furloughed and what they did next. One stayed furloughed and came back after DL acquired Western, the other guy eventually went to Northwest. The guy arguing the point to the three arbitrators said they should be considered equal due to them both getting furloughed at the same time. The arbitrators disagreed, saying both had a choice on what to do next, and one stayed put, the other moved on.

Picking an airline is a gamble. Not trying to be cocky, but that is life. Picking the one you want to interview at and hopefully get hired at is your choice, and if that airline fails, you unfortunately made the wrong choice. Sad but true, and that is true in any business.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Grandpa +65]

Doc.57 reads well. There is only one list in play.....on legal list in play....one list that was accepted.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Sorry, but "choice" is the correct word.

Like Jerry Mugerditchian. Two bites at the apple is always better than one!

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yesterday, May 7, 2013, American Airlines and its parent company AMR Corporation (referred to as "American") filed a motion in the United States District Court for the District of Arizona, seeking to intervene pursuant to Rule 24 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure in Addington II, (Docs. 56-57), "for limited purposes to protect interests in this litigation that are different from those of the parties."
In its motion to intervene, American clearly asserts (like US Airways) that it is taking no position on the merits of the underlying dispute in Addington II. American claims it seeks intervention on a limited basis in this case simply to:

1. inform the District Court of the risks to the merger process that could be created by an overly broad preliminary injunction (should plaintiffs prevail in their preliminary injunction application), and
2. advise the District Court of its agreement with US Airways' position that the underlying DFR claim by plaintiffs is ripe for consideration by the Court.

The overarching message of American's motion to intervene is that it wants this litigation resolved expeditiously and on the merits, in order to avoid any delay in, or harm to, the merger process.
With respect to ripeness, American's motion simply adopts the position of US Airways without any further argument, except that American also claims that the instant dispute is ripe because of the harm to American that may result from a dismissal of Addington II on ripeness grounds. This argument is legally insignificant to the question of the ripeness of plaintiff's claims (not American's, and not US Airways') that USAPA has breached its duty of fair representation. The standard for determining ripeness in this case has been clearly set forth by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Addington I, and reiterated by Judge Silver in her decision last fall granting summary judgment to USAPA in US Airways' action for Declaratory Judgment. Plaintiffs (in apparent coordination with US Airways and American) still do not satisfy this standard for all of the reasons set forth in USAPA's submissions to the Court in Addington II, including, but not limited to, the fact that the MOU is not the final agreement upon which ripeness of plaintiffs' claim was conditioned by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
American's motion to intervene adds nothing of legal significance to the resolution of USAPA's motion to dismiss or plaintiffs' motion for preliminary injunction. Instead, it is merely an unsubtle attempt to further pressure the District Court into deviating from the correct legal standard for ripeness, set forth by the Ninth Circuit, and Judge Silver's previous decision in US Airways' Declaratory Judgment action.
USAPA's reply with respect to its motion to dismiss is due to be filed tomorrow, May 9, and a joint statement concerning the May 14 hearing is due to be filed on Friday, May 10. The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday, May 14, beginning at 10:00 a.m., in the District Court in Phoenix.

USAPA Communications

I think this is what is known as "whistling past the grave yard."

 

[Metrojet]

Merely a flesh wound, right? If the case is ripe, then the MOU is a de-facto JCBA upon the Effective Date. So Kirby was right in saying that Nicolau won't be used after the JCBA. It will be used prior to that, on the effective date, to merge 2 lists into 1 new one.

Yes the east will probably get another round or two of upgrades in the interim, but the seniority integration will make that a hollow victory as they slide further into the seniority abyss with every subsequent vacancy bid.

If a jury finds that USAPA is guilty of a DFR to the west, then the east will likely pay damages out of those upgrade wages. APA will not be willing to do anything that could put them on the hook for paying those damages.

I really hate that it had to come to this, all because a few fear mongerers (Bradford, Cleary, et.al.) got so many to believe their lies about the consequences of the Nic which everyone is about to discover are far less than the consequences of USAPA's strategy (if you can call it that).

With power comes responsibility. USAPA chose to jettison both to the detriment of their supporters.

Well , I was going to respond to the General - but he really has nothing to say - but Bird - interesting spin - I will give you credit on that.

If I may ask a simple question to the Westies? Do you really think that APA is going to accept the Nic that puts almost 1700 pilots slotted in way ahead of all those 1980's and 1990's DOH AA pilots.? Would not then many Westies would then be able to fly wide body AA planes?

I will give you the answer - there will be many fences around planes and bases for quite a few years - and I won't guess for how long. As long as your prior position on the snapshot date is protected - then how is that a violation of DFR?

So - I hope ( and assume ) that you might have many more years left at the New American than I- which would then allow you many years to enjoy your better position , while at the same time allow me my last 10 or so years to have the the benefit of attrition of the last 20 years.

Ya have to admit - that might sound somewhat fair - even though we have been at war for the last 5

Metro jet

 

[Bringupthebird]

I don't think the sentimental appeal for you to enjoy your last 10 years or so at my expense is going to gain any traction. Your career cratered due to events completely independent of mine and I don't think that the west should feel obligated to share the pain of your double bankruptcy.

The Nic is between former US and the former AWA pilots. The Nic list is what will be used by the arbitrators to combine with the APA list to construct the New American list. However there will be many pilots who upgraded out of order on the Nic list and will see their bidding position continue to spiral down as those who should have occupied those positions (and by the way that is only about 1/3 of the total upgrades) move into their rightful place. Some will undoubtedly decide to return to the right seat and regain some semblance of a life versus a long long road of reserve.

There will be equipment fences perhaps, but not base fences. And all fences will have caveats to allow those denied their rightful position to occupy them.

Someone should have sat down and quietly explained the truth to the east. However I doubt that anyone like that existed over there, nor do I think their words would have been heeded. Sad.

 

[Metrojet]

I don't think the sentimental appeal for you to enjoy your last 10 years or so at my expense is going to gain any traction. Your career cratered due to events completely independent of mine and I don't think that the west should feel obligated to share the pain of your double bankruptcy.

The Nic is between former US and the former AWA pilots. The Nic list is what will be used by the arbitrators to combine with the APA list to construct the New American list. However there will be many pilots who upgraded out of order on the Nic list and will see their bidding position continue to spiral down as those who should have occupied those positions (and by the way that is only about 1/3 of the total upgrades) move into their rightful place. Some will undoubtedly decide to return to the right seat and regain some semblance of a life versus a long long road of reserve.

There will be equipment fences perhaps, but not base fences. And all fences will have caveats to allow those denied their rightful position to occupy them.

Someone should have sat down and quietly explained the truth to the east. However I doubt that anyone like that existed over there, nor do I think their words would have been heeded. Sad.

Well - wasn't really trying to be sentimental or asking for your approval - but there will be fences, but in any event - how can an ARB use a list that was never active. Have you ever been involved a contractual case which had amendments attached? If the contract (or lets say a j c b a with side letters) was never signed - then the side letters are irrelevant , or inother words - not enforceable.

From your above response - I am sure you can't even take a objective view.

And I just read the court intervention filing by American - it has no legal view of our dog fight other than it wants the courts to either throw out the plaintiffs claim or move it along to a legal decision. And I guarantee you that it will do something - but probably not to the plaintiffs cause.

That is all.

Metrojet

 

[Superbird]

Well - wasn't really trying to be sentimental or asking for your approval - but there will be fences, but in any event - how can an ARB use a list that was never active. Have you ever been involved a contractual case which had amendments attached? If the contract (or lets say a j c b a with side letters) was never signed - then the side letters are irrelevant , or inother words - not enforceable.

From your above response - I am sure you can't even take a objective view.

And I just read the court intervention filing by American - it has no legal view of our dog fight other than it wants the courts to either throw out the plaintiffs claim or move it along to a legal decision. And I guarantee you that it will do something - but probably not to the plaintiffs cause.

That is all.

Metrojet

USAPA still has the duty to represent all pilots fairly. They represent the West don't they? Otherwise another DFR will be waiting for them in short order. So I ask, "why does USAPA continue down a dead end road"?

 

[Metrojet]

USAPA still has the duty to represent all pilots fairly. They represent the West don't they? Otherwise another DFR will be waiting for them in short order. So I ask, "why does USAPA continue down a dead end road"?

USAPA represents former West and East, but operating under different contracts right - I think we agree on that. And since there is no j c b a that was ever signed - then we have separate lists.

The only way for the Nic to have been active - was if the west members and east members ratified a joint contract. That is not going to occur now - so therefore no ripeness or breach of DFR. That is what the judge is going to rule.

The American filing for intervention is just to remove any delay from the addington plaintiffs in the timetable of the mou.

USAPA is protecting the interests of both east and west and APA will protect the interests of their members.

Metrojet