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AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

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Metrojet said:
I will try and make this simple - have you ever signed a contract that had an addendum ? You have to sign the contract AND the addendum for the contract to be legally binding. If you don't sign the addendum, then you can't enforce the contract. IE - if there is no joint cba - then everything else is void. No TA NO NIC

With the MOU - there is an new agreement that will lead to a new SLI with a new contract. The MOU is not a j cba - I know every West pilot thinks we now have a contract. If we do, then why are we not operating on it after the por? Because we need a j cba that will have a new SLI.

Metrojet
Click to expand...

No, according to my Westie buddies, your USAPA leader stated the MOU had NOTHING to do with the SLI, hence the 98% Yes vote. Had the MOU had any chance to affect the NIC or SLI, there would NEVER have been a 98% yes vote. You know that......are you ignorant? Yes..... Wake up, the NIC is coming.....the APA and even your company know the Westie's case is ripe. We all know it.... And you will too, soon.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Judge today just made this more complex...asking for talks between USAPA and AOL??? USAPA represents all LCC pilots, not just East pilots and needs LUP to go off nic? AOL is just to force the DFR, not to adjusts SLI's...
 
Carl S. said:
Judge today just made this more complex...asking for talks between USAPA and AOL??? USAPA represents all LCC pilots, not just East pilots and needs LUP to go off nic? AOL is just to force the DFR, not to adjusts SLI's...
Click to expand...
Would you ask her honor if I can just send my dues to AOL instead of USAPA? I thought there was some prohibition in the RLA against dual representation.
 
Carl S. said:
Judge today just made this more complex...asking for talks between USAPA and AOL??? USAPA represents all LCC pilots, not just East pilots and needs LUP to go off nic? AOL is just to force the DFR, not to adjusts SLI's...
Click to expand...

Well, practically speaking, we ALL know USAPA is only representing the east on the SLI issue at hand
 
waveflyer said:
Well, practically speaking, we ALL know USAPA is only representing the east on the SLI issue at hand
Click to expand...
The USAPA patented head-slapper is that they could have pulled the very same move under ALPA AND had enough money to be relevant in a merger. Now they only set themselves up for a whopper of a DFR damages settlement - all for nothing!

And the SLI is not the only issue where USAPA has decided to erect a "whites only" lunch counter: Ask USAPA how many west grievances have been pursued, ask them why the west had to pay back a distance learning accounting error and the east hasn't, ask them for details on how many east pilots vs west pilots have been brought up on sec 19 charges due to delinquent dues payment, ask them what is it they don't understand about how "separate but equal" isn't.

If Judge Silver is willing to accept the entirety of the case of USAPA failing to equally represent the west pilots, there will be no shortage of evidence.

I think todays mandate to negotiate is just a chance to see USAPA in action for herself. They will say they are constitutionally incapable of negotiating anything but DOH. I think once she sees USAPA for herself, she will agree with Nicolau's decision.
 
Bringupthebird said:
The USAPA patented head-slapper is that they could have pulled the very same move under ALPA AND had enough money to be relevant in a merger. Now they only set themselves up for a whopper of a DFR damages settlement - all for nothing!

And the SLI is not the only issue where USAPA has decided to erect a "whites only" lunch counter: Ask USAPA how many west grievances have been pursued, ask them why the west had to pay back a distance learning accounting error and the east hasn't, ask them for details on how many east pilots vs west pilots have been brought up on sec 19 charges due to delinquent dues payment, ask them what is it they don't understand about how "separate but equal" isn't.

If Judge Silver is willing to accept the entirety of the case of USAPA failing to equally represent the west pilots, there will be no shortage of evidence.

I think todays mandate to negotiate is just a chance to see USAPA in action for herself. They will say they are constitutionally incapable of negotiating anything but DOH. I think once she sees USAPA for herself, she will agree with Nicolau's decision.
Click to expand...

If she thinks the Nic arbitration is enforceable, she could have just saved everyone a lot of trouble and simply could have given the Plaintiff the injunction they asked for, to make USAPA use the Nic.

If she thought that one or both defendants were correct that she has to dismiss the plaintiff's case, she could have been giving the Plaintiffs a chance to attempt to work out a settlement that she herself can't provide.
 
She's letting USAPA hang themselves publicly. By further demonstrating bad faith negotiating, she affirms what the west class has said all along.

While it's sad that USAPA has ignored every judge and arbitrator who has urged USAPA to live up to their responsibilities, the tragedy is that 5000 east pilots have been willing to pay so dearly so that a very very few could benefit. Had the Nic been implemented, virtually every active working pilot at the date of the snapshot would have stiil gained the same increase in status AND they would have gotten a substantial raise which would not be jeopardized by impending damages.
 
Turtle21 said:
If she thinks the Nic arbitration is enforceable, she could have just saved everyone a lot of trouble and simply could have given the Plaintiff the injunction they asked for, to make USAPA use the Nic.
Click to expand...
Your naievete as to the disdain to which you and your cabal are held by your peers is both quaint and pitiful.
 
I'll widen the peer group to include all major airline pilots-
To willingly hold on to that BK contract is terribly dumb, and hurtful to ALL of us.
 
waveflyer said:
I'll widen the peer group to include all major airline pilots-
To willingly hold on to that BK contract is terribly dumb, and hurtful to ALL of us.
Click to expand...
No worries bud. In three years, we (the new AA) will be up to industry standard. I would be more concerned about the future of SW when the big three flex their muscle..I sure hope that you are never placed in a position to LOWER the bar..
 
Bringupthebird said:
Your naievete as to the disdain to which you and your cabal are held by your peers is both quaint and pitiful.
Click to expand...
My "peers" have never given a second thought at my careers well being or otherwise. Like hungry vultures, they have circled above the weak, fragile state of my airline, in the hopes of advancing their careers at the detriment of my own...Do I care about their pity or thoughts??..A resounding NO!!
 
Metrojet said:
The MOU is not a j cba - I know every West pilot thinks we now have a contract. If we do, then why are we not operating on it after the por? Because we need a j cba that will have a new SLI.

Metrojet
Click to expand...

TWA Dude said:
The MOU is indeed active as of the POR. Can't imagine why you think otherwise. Hint: the MOU payrates become effective at POR and we get the retro pay.
Click to expand...

On May 14th...

THE COURT:.... the first thing is that I have a problem with your
saying the MOU is, in fact, a Collective Bargaining Agreement.
That's not what the Ninth Circuit said.
MR. HARPER: The MOU, if you listen to us, if you
look at Airways and if you listen to American, the MOU is the
new Collective Bargaining Agreement. Substantially all of the
terms --
THE COURT: But the MOU says you negotiate. It
doesn't say this is the agreement. That's what the Ninth
Circuit said. The Ninth Circuit said whatever you end up with
is what is the final agreement and perhaps at that point there
may well be a cause of action. I don't know primarily what the
Ninth Circuit said except they are always right.
So I disagree with you on that point. Let's go on."
 
Doesn't USAPA's bylaws state ONLY DOH? Just like the Westies only want the NIC. and how can the Westies negotiate when USAPA is their only bargaining agent? This judge doesn't seem to understand.... But, it's better for the Westie than what is currently going on, and still disappointing for the third listers regardless.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Doesn't USAPA's bylaws state ONLY DOH? Just like the Westies only want the NIC. and how can the Westies negotiate when USAPA is their only bargaining agent? This judge doesn't seem to understand.... But, it's better for the Westie than what is currently going on, and still disappointing for the third listers regardless.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

I really fail to see how any of this is disappointing for "third listers". As a third lister, I and everyone else on this list knew from the day we were hired that an East/West seniority integration (NIC list or other) at some point would occur and we, as third listers would be on the bottom of whatever is decided. In fact, the opposite of disappointment is true for me at least. As a first year guy, I wasn't eligible to even vote on the MOU nor is it worth it to even think about the overall SLI with AA or the integration of East/West. We are on the bottom regardless and just along for the ride. The only SLI issue we would have to worry about is if AA would propose a list that would put those that have yet to be hired, but who will be new hires during the SLI above guys like me which wouldn't hold water anyway. That and being furloughed of course
 
plunger said:
I really fail to see how any of this is disappointing for "third listers". As a third lister, I and everyone else on this list knew from the day we were hired that an East/West seniority integration (NIC list or other) at some point would occur and we, as third listers would be on the bottom of whatever is decided. In fact, the opposite of disappointment is true for me at least. As a first year guy, I wasn't eligible to even vote on the MOU nor is it worth it to even think about the overall SLI with AA or the integration of East/West. We are on the bottom regardless and just along for the ride. The only SLI issue we would have to worry about is if AA would propose a list that would put those that have yet to be hired, but who will be new hires during the SLI above guys like me which wouldn't hold water anyway. That and being furloughed of course
Click to expand...

Plunger,

Regardless of how you personally feel, you and the other third listers have enjoyed seniority on the East side not "available" to more senior Westies. Thanks to their "union" that was born from disagreeing to a binding award, the Easties and third listers have had opportunities, like the 2012 hire awarded E190 Capt, not offered to more senior Westies. That isn't fair, nor is it right. Some of the third lister progression will stop when senior Westies are allowed to bid on what they absolutely deserve.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Plunger,

Regardless of how you personally feel, you and the other third listers have enjoyed seniority on the East side not "available" to more senior Westies. Thanks to their "union" that was born from disagreeing to a binding award, the Easties and third listers have had opportunities, like the 2012 hire awarded E190 Capt, not offered to more senior Westies. That isn't fair, nor is it right. Some of the third lister progression will stop when senior Westies are allowed to bid on what they absolutely deserve.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

What seniority am I enjoying at the expense of the West? Sitting short call reserve? Because that's my and many third lister seniority equates to. As far as the 190 CA position goes, good luck finding many West pilots that even take it under the current situation. If the NIC list were in effect, you wouldnt see a West pilot in either seat of that thing
 
plunger said:
What seniority am I enjoying at the expense of the West? Sitting short call reserve? Because that's my and many third lister seniority equates to. As far as the 190 CA position goes, good luck finding many West pilots that even take it under the current situation. If the NIC list were in effect, you wouldnt see a West pilot in either seat of that thing
Click to expand...

Hell you can't barely find a Legacy East guy on either seat of that thing.
 
Turtle21 said:
On May 14th...

THE COURT:.... the first thing is that I have a problem with your
saying the MOU is, in fact, a Collective Bargaining Agreement.
That's not what the Ninth Circuit said.
MR. HARPER: The MOU, if you listen to us, if you
look at Airways and if you listen to American, the MOU is the
new Collective Bargaining Agreement. Substantially all of the
terms --
THE COURT: But the MOU says you negotiate. It
doesn't say this is the agreement. That's what the Ninth
Circuit said. The Ninth Circuit said whatever you end up with
is what is the final agreement and perhaps at that point there
may well be a cause of action. I don't know primarily what the
Ninth Circuit said except they are always right.
So I disagree with you on that point. Let's go on."
Click to expand...

So Silver just told you that USAPA handed Parker a blank signed check. He can make it out for whatever he thinks DOH is worth to USAPA. Hang onto that fancy brochure with pie in the sky wages because you'll never see them on you bank statement. And you never see DOH either. And you're under an injunction borne from your own stupidity so you have no leverage to steer negotiations your way.

Pwned by your own - AGAIN! Do you ever get tired of it?

Watch your grubby little slimeballs you call a BPR try to clean themselves up a pretend to negotiate without ever moving off DOH. It wouldn't hurt you so much if you actually made enough coin to afford their lavish juggernaut.
 
Last edited:
Bringupthebird. You must have reading comprehension problems, if you have read the transcripts.

Basically she whacked your atty for standing stiff legged in insisting on the NIc and only the NIC and ordered him to sit down and negotiate something else.

Your lawyer repeatedly made statements regarding the NIC, and she finally told him that it doesn't have to be the NIC and to go talk with USAPA about another possibility.

I thought the General said the NIC was going to be shoved down our throats here this month???

guess not..... Looks more like a 3 way M/B....
 
Bringupthebird said:
So Silver just told you that USAPA handed Parker a blank signed check. He can make it out for whatever he thinks DOH is worth to USAPA. Hang onto that fancy brochure with pie in the sky wages because you'll never see them on you bank statement. And you never see DOH either. And you're under an injunction borne from your own stupidity so you have no leverage to steer negotiations your way.

Pwned by your own - AGAIN! Do you ever get tired of it?

Watch your grubby little slimeballs you call a BPR try to clean themselves up a pretend to negotiate without ever moving off DOH. It wouldn't hurt you so much if you actually made enough coin to afford their lavish juggernaut.
Click to expand...

What? You have no idea what is going on. I am starting to think you are a poser like Poser Lee? :D
 
Crzipilot said:
Bringupthebird. You must have reading comprehension problems, if you have read the transcripts.

Basically she whacked your atty for standing stiff legged in insisting on the NIc and only the NIC and ordered him to sit down and negotiate something else.

Your lawyer repeatedly made statements regarding the NIC, and she finally told him that it doesn't have to be the NIC and to go talk with USAPA about another possibility.

I thought the General said the NIC was going to be shoved down our throats here this month???

guess not..... Looks more like a 3 way M/B....
Click to expand...

"Looks like...." Thanks Nancy Grace. It still isn't over, and the West lawyer needs to make his obvious case clearer for her. Didn't sound like the East lawyer did very well either, trying to give testimony saying they actually did negotiate with the West.....riiiight.

The good thing is the Easties can't stall anymore, and have to negotiate, something they haven't wanted to do yet. The APA and even the company know the Westies are ripe, and it will interesting to see how this travesty plays out.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
I'm not quite sure why some on the east think it's over. There is still a possibility, however remote, that she could rule in favor of the west for an injunction. It is after all, not over yet.

I personally would guess at a three way. It seems many on the east think that a three way would be great. Some on the east appear totally against this however and hope for DOH. They feel USAPA can just combine the west and east list using USAPA's internal seniority policy of DOH. How they think that is possible or even remotely acceptable, I don't know. Oh, I guess I do know, it staples the west below the east.
 
From the crack WalMart legal mind of Symanski

And, you know, I have, in a very synoptic fashion,
set forth some of the things that have troubled me and some of
them, Mr. Syzmanski, are what appear to be allegations to what
you said which would perhaps -- perhaps can be explained but
they seem contrary, as I have indicated, to what you set forth
in Court which indicated quite clear told me and you were very
candid and I thought we're fine. (“)We're going to go forward,
have another seniority agreement and the Nicolau Award would be
at least considered(”).
And then we have these allegations about what has
been said since that time and also noted what is in a press
release which is by USAPA which says USAPA will propose
date-of-hire integration in accordance with USAPA's
constitution at the outset of the McCaskill-Bond process. The
parties exchange accurate information, et cetera. Based upon
this information, the pilot groups attempt to negotiate a
mutually agreeable merger, merged seniority list and that the
Merger Committee will proposed DOH method of integrating
seniority.

THE COURT: Yes. You're prepared to talk. We want
to talk and we will want genuine engagement with the West
Pilots about the seniority proposal and we are proposed to make
changes. No changes.
MR. SZYMANSKI: Changes in the date-of-hire proposal,
not changes in the Nicolau proposal.
THE COURT: Well, you never said that. If you had
said that in open Court, then we would have had a hearing at
that time because the issue was what I made quite clear is that
you had to go forward. USAPA had to go forward and with an
open mind and that the Nicolau Award was not irrelevant. It
was to be considered.

THE COURT: Did you offer something?
MR. SZYMANSKI: We didn't offer anything specific.
THE COURT: But what would you have offered as you
have said in open Court? I'm sorry to interrupt and make this
complicated for you, but how about we get to my question where
I am -- as I mentioned, I am somewhat uneducated about this.
There are other methods and means to establish a seniority
system that would be fair; correct?
MR. SZYMANSKI: Absolutely, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So what did you offer?
MR. SZYMANSKI: And, Your Honor, I'm not saying that
the Nicolau Award is not fair although there were significant
problems with it, and I'm not saying that a date-of-hire
proposal is not fair. We've given the Court cases and
citations to a number of Court decisions that say that a
date-of-hire proposal is within the union's duty of fair
representation and is fair.

MR. SZYMANSKI: We haven't had any discussions
because they don't want to discuss anything other than the
Nicolau Award and I don't want the Court to misunderstand the
fact that doing the Nicolau Award itself as it is, as it
stands, is a realistic possibility. It isn't. It just -- it
isn't.
But we are willing to say --
THE COURT: Why isn't it?
MR. SZYMANSKI: Because we think it was unfair.
Click to expand...
You just can't make that kind of crap up.
 

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