ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, I expect a lot more than that from people. Call it unrealistic if you want, but I expect people to have more common decency than to just look out for "number one" at the expense of everyone else.

Who were you looking out for when you paid an Eastern scab to sit in the cockpit of an airliner at Gulfstream? Who were you looking out for when you left Gulfstream to work for one of the worst RJ operators (Pinnacle)? Who were you looking out for when you left that job to go to Air Tran which is one of the lowest paying carriers for that type of equipment, especially in the right seat?

You were looking out for yourself, because if you were looking out for the profession, you wouldn't have gone to work for any of those carriers.....

Save your utopian BS......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Gandalf... problem is most pilots... ALPA including.. think that this profession is something to take from... they want want want... well anyone who is smart knows that if you a suck a resource dry without putting anything back... it will no longer proivde....

This concept is lost on the gimme crowd with short term solutions...

"I just wanna fly my trip and go home...leave me alone, I want to go home..."

On this we agree Rez.....

:beer:

...... now for the disagreement..... IMO, that will never change.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe....where have you been...... this thread has been raging all day.... you've got allot of catching up to do.... get busy....

 

[PCL_128]

Who were you looking out for when you paid an Eastern scab to sit in the cockpit of an airliner at Gulfstream? Who were you looking out for when you left Gulfstream to work for one of the worst RJ operators (Pinnacle)? Who were you looking out for when you left that job to go to Air Tran which is one of the lowest paying carriers for that type of equipment, especially in the right seat?

You were looking out for yourself, because if you were looking out for the profession, you wouldn't have gone to work for any of those carriers.....

Save your utopian BS......

John, I've answered all of those statements in the past, and I'm really not in the mood to argue with you tonight, so I'll just say: go fu&^ yourself.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Boy you ALPA cheerleaders don't have much fight in ya tonight.... What's a matter.... busy licking your wounds after that loss....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What a total load of cr@p..... it is no wonder people laugh at ALPA..... You are implying that Skywest pilots aren't professional because they don't belong to ALPA? ALPA pilots work for the "betterment of the public"...... Do you actually believe these Herndon talking points? Keep it up Rez and watch ALPA lose more elections......

No... they could have created thier own in house union and came up with thier own code of ethics...


Are you arguring the definition of a professional Joe? Do you know what a professional is Joe? Are you one? If so can you define what you are Joe?

 

[JoeMerchant]

No... they could have created thier own in house union and came up with thier own code of ethics...


Are you arguring the definition of a professional Joe? Do you know what a professional is Joe? Are you one? If so can you define what you are Joe?

So you have to be a member of a union to be a professional? Can you reference that definition?

Here is the Wikipedia definition..... I don't see "member of a union" anywhere.....

The second paragraph is interesting however..... ALPA may want to give that some consideration...



[edit] Definition

A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.

The above definitions were echoed by economist and sociologist Max Weber, who noted that professions are defined by the power to exclude and control admission to the profession, as well as by the development of a particular vocabulary specific to the occupation, and at least somewhat incomprehensible to outsiders.[citation needed]

 

[JoeMerchant]

Follow up to the Wikipedia definition of professional.... In the second paragraph, they reference "guilds".....

Here is a portion of the Wikipedia definition of "guild"..... More interesting stuff..... Notice they refer to the AMA, ABA, Realtors and Screen Actors Guild.... Don't see ALPA there.... In fact only 3 of the aforementioned are unions......



Influence of guilds
Guilds are sometimes said to be the precursors of modern trade unions, and also, paradoxically, of some aspects of the modern corporation. Guilds, however, were groups of self-employed skilled craftsmen with ownership and control over the materials and tools they needed to produce their goods. Guilds were, in other words, small business associations and thus had very little in common with trade unions. If anything, guilds were more like cartels than they were like trade unions (Olson 1982). However, the journeymen organizations, which were at the time illegal, may have been influential.
The exclusive privilege of a guild to produce certain goods or provide certain services was similar in spirit and character with the original patent systems that surfaced in England in 1624. These systems played a role in ending the guilds' dominance, as trade secret methods were superseded by modern firms directly revealing their techniques, and counting on the state to enforce their legal monopoly.
Some guild traditions still remain in a few handicrafts, in Europe especially among shoemakers and barbers. Some of the ritual traditions of the guilds were conserved in order organizations such as the Freemasons. These are, however, not very important economically except as reminders of the responsibilities of some trades toward the public.
Modern antitrust law could be said to be derived in some ways from the original statutes by which the guilds were abolished in Europe.

[edit] Modern guilds

Modern guilds exist in different forms around the world. In many European countries guilds have had a revival as local organisations for craftsmen, primarily in traditional skills. They may function as fora for developing competence and are often the local units of a national employers organization.

In the United States guilds exist in several fields. The Screen Actors Guild and Writers Guild of America are capable of exercising very strong control in Hollywood because a very strong and rigid system of intellectual property respect exists (as with some medieval trades). These guilds exclude other actors and writers who do not abide by the strict rules for competing within the film and television industry in America.

Quilting guilds are also very common and are found in almost all areas of the United States.
Real estate brokerage is an excellent example of a modern American guild. Telltale signs of guild behavior are on display in real estate brokerage: standard pricing (6% of the home price), strong affiliation among all practitioners, self-regulation (see National Association of Realtors), strong cultural identity (see Realtor), little price variation with quality differences, and traditional methods in use by all practitioners. In September 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against the National Association of Realtors challenging NAR practices that, DOJ asserts, prevent competition from practitioners who use different methods. The DOJ and the Federal Trade Commission in 2005 advocated against state laws, supported by NAR, that disadvantage new kinds of brokers. For a description of the DOJ action, see [1]. U.S. v. National Assoc. of Realtors, U.S. District Court Norther District Illinois, Eastern Division, September 7, 2005, Civil Action No. 05C-5140.
The practice of law in the United States is also an example of modern guilds at work. Every state maintains its own Bar Association, supervised by that state's highest court. The court decides the criteria for being admitted to, and remaining a member of, the legal profession. In most states, every attorney must be a member of that state's Bar in order to practice law. State laws forbid any person from engaging in the unauthorized practice of law and practicing attorneys are subject to rules of professional conduct that are enforced by the state's high court.

Other associations which can be classified as guilds, though it isn't evident in their names, include the American Medical Association and the American Bar Association.

Scholars from the history of ideas have noticed that consultants play a part similar to that of the journeymen of the guild systems: they often travel a lot, work at many different companies and spread new practices and knowledge between companies and corporations.

Many professional organizations similarly resemble the guild structure. Professions such as architecture, engineering, and land surveying require varying lengths of apprenticeships before one can be granted a 'professional' certification. These certifications hold great legal weight and are required in most states as a prerequisite to doing business there.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Profession

characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"

Codes of Conduct and Ethics Guidelines
Rules of conduct or ethical codes are often considered to be characteristic of professions, as opposed to craft and trade associations.

Code of Ethics
Rules and procedures of professional conduct

 

[JoeMerchant]

Profession

characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"

Codes of Conduct and Ethics Guidelines
Rules of conduct or ethical codes are often considered to be characteristic of professions, as opposed to craft and trade associations.

Code of Ethics
Rules and procedures of professional conduct

By my definition, and the one I supplied, Skywest pilots are professionals...... If you ALPA cheerleaders want to say they aren't, then have at it..... You will probably just pi$$ off some of the YES voters.... Keep it up and the loss will be even larger next time...

 

[PCL_128]

Boy you ALPA cheerleaders don't have much fight in ya tonight.... What's a matter.... busy licking your wounds after that loss....

Naw, just tired of self-serving pr*cks that leech off of the rest of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Remarks of
Robert Sumwalt, Vice Chairman
National Transportation Safety Board
to the Air Line Pilots Association
International Pilots Assistance Forum
April 11, 2007
Denver, Colorado​

“Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?”​

It is absolutely great to be here with a group of dedicated people who devote their time to help others in the profession.
When I received the ALPA Air Safety Award, I said something that I believed then, and something that I believe now – ALPA work is important, it does make a difference, it does matter and it does save lives.
Jeff, I applaud your efforts to organize this event, which by all measures, appears to be a huge success. I know pulling it together has been a lot of work for many people, especially the ALPA staff.
If you are like me, you probably find tremendous value networking and having sidebar conversations in the hallways.
ALPA’s Administrative Manual says that the ALPA Pilot Assistance Committee “will provide guidance and assistance to any pilot having difficulty in any aspect of their professional or personal life which may affect their ability to safely operate an airplane.”
Well, just to be provocative, I have titled this presentation: “Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?” The answer to that rhetorical question is…, well, I’ll answer that in a few minutes.
In attempting to answer that question, let’s briefly discuss each of the disciplines of ALPA’s Pilot Assistance Committee.
Critical Incident Response Program
First, CIRP. I first met Mimi Tompkins at the ALPA air safety forum in 1991. She and Dr. Don Hudson had a panel where Mimi stood up in front of about 350 strangers and told of the trauma that she experienced following her 1988 accident. As I listened to her I turned to the person next to me and said, “We must never allow this to happen to another of our members.” And, as Mimi stepped off the stage, I introduced myself and told her that I wanted to help her develop a program to help prevent the very trauma that she endured.
We had a slow start, but we had great support and encouragement from former Professional Standards Chairmen Captain Jim McIntyre and Bob Lynch and from Dr. Don Hudson.
I knew that we needed to do something, but couldn’t quite figure out what we needed. It was sometime later that Mimi and I learned that Captain Alan Campbell of Delta was developing such a program for the Delta pilot group.
For the next several months, the three of us worked to develop a program and in May 1994 the ALPA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution to form the ALPA Critical Incident Response Program.
As Jan Steenblik wrote a few years ago in Air Line Pilot, ALPA’s CIRP is about “being there for fellow pilots, lending an ear - and a helping hand – when bad stuff happens.”
What became very evident through the process of building this program was the need for this type of program.
Dr. Hudson told us that of those ALPA crew members who contacted the ALPA Aeromedical Office following a critical incident/accident, approximately 70 percent of those who received proper treatment continued their aviation careers, but of those who did not receive treatment, approximately 60 to 70 percent left their aviation careers within two years of the critical incident.
Some committed suicide.
Simply put, CIRP helps save lives.
Professional Standards
I had barely 100 hours in my logbook in October 1974, when the NTSB wrote a recommendation letter to the FAA. This letter was following a CFIT accident a year earlier where a Texas International Airlines Convair 600 crashed into the Black Fork Mountain in Arkansas. The crew deviated some 80 miles off course for thunderstorms and were trying to do it on a VFR flight plan.
About 12 minutes before impact, the crew initiated a descent from 3000 feet. The First Officer stated, “I sure wish I know where… we were.”
A few minutes later he said, “Paining ridges and everything else, boss, and I’m not familiar with the terrain.”
When the captain made the decision to descend to 2000 feet msl, the First Officer continued to express his doubts about terrain clearance. “Man, I wish I knew where we were so we’d have some idea of the general terrain around this place.”
The First Office then located their approximate position on a chart. The CVR ended on an ominous note with the FO stating, “the minimum enroute altitude here is forty-four hun…”
The aircraft struck terrain about 600 feet below the ridgeline.
Although the Safety Board’s October 1974 recommendation letter was in response to this accident, it also referenced other accidents where the Safety Board cited “serious lapses in expected professional conduct” of pilots.
The letter said: “History has proved that neither increased flight checks nor new regulations, alone, will improve safety; nor will these actions ensure professional performance. Yet, professionalism is fundamental to safe operations in civil aviation.”
The Safety Board went on to state: “The high standards of professionalism possessed by most pilots must be instilled in all pilots. Professional standards committees should be able to assist substantially in this regard.”
With that, in 1974 the Safety Board recommended that pilot associations form new, and regenerate old, professional standards committees to promote crew discipline and professionalism.
Through the years, ALPA’s professional standards program has had many successes. That said, those of us who consider ourselves professionals were quite disappointed as details emerged concerning October 2004 Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.
In January of this year the Safety Board determined probable cause of that accident to be, in part, “the pilots’ unprofessional behavior, deviation from standard operating procedures and poor airmanship, which resulted in an in-flight emergency from which they were unable to recover…”
For the record, I voted, along with my four colleagues on the Board, to adopt that language. To be clear, my obligation as a Board Member if to call it the way I see it, even when I don’t like what I see.
Not unlike 1974 recommendation letter, our recommendation letter for the Pinnacle accident referenced six fairly recent accidents in which the board cited the “lack of cockpit discipline and adherence to standard operating procedures.”
The report said that it is clear that “most pilots conduct flight operations with a high degree of professionalism. Nevertheless, a problem still exists in the aviation industry with some pilots acting unprofessionally and not adhering to standard operating procedures, as demonstrated by recent accidents…”
Here is the part of the Safety Recommendation that applies directly to you: “Because pilot unions have expertise in safety, training, and operations and have a vested interest in advancing professional standards among the pilots they represent, these groups are well positioned to take a leadership role to establish new educations approaches for reinforcing professionalism in the aviation industry.”
The Safety Board issued Recommendation A-07-8, which called for the FAA to “work with pilot associations to develop a specific program of education for air carrier pilots that addresses professional standards and their role in ensuring safety of flight. This program should include associated guidance information and references to recent accidents involving pilots acting unprofessionally or not following standard operating procedures.”
So, yes, it appears that in spite of a very successful professional standards program over the years, they are still vitally needed.
The ALPA administrative manual says that ALPA supports the highest standards of professional conduct among its members and I urge you to continue your efforts here.
People die when professionalism is left at the gate. ​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Cont...

HIMS
The ALPA Code of Ethics and Cannons state that an airline pilot “will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.”
As I was preparing this speech I read an article that mentioned an airline pilot – in this case a pilot who was flying for a very large non-ALPA airline – who had been arrested in uniform, going through security, on his way to his 777. His BAC was reportedly 6 times the legal limit.
The entire profession cringes when we hear stories like this. The piloting community is the brunt of jokes on Letterman and Leno. But, unfortunately, it is not a joke. It is a serious problem that must be addressed.
ALPA has not put its head in the sand on this issue. For over 30 years, with the cooperation of the FAA and almost all the airlines in North America, thousands of airline pilots have been successfully treated for alcoholism and able to return to their flying careers through the HIMS program.
It is a success story that must continue. I suspect that with increased pressures brought on by airline financial difficulties, we have increased the potential for emotional difficulties with employees. And, of course, some turn to alcohol to treat their problems.
So, HIMS is important. And it, too, saves lives.
Aeromedical
When I was an active ALPA member, I thought the ALPA Aeromedical Office was a great benefit. The primary benefit, of course, is that pilots can discuss health matters, in complete confidence, with a physician who knows and understands the professional aviator’s work environment and FAA regulations and policies. Their ultimate goal is to preserve both the pilot’s health and FAA medical certificate.
They receive over 300 calls each day.
A few years ago I received a phone call from “Tom,” a pilot for a corporate flight department. Tom was a good friend of mine and he confided in me that he and others suspected that one of their pilots was suicidal. Tom was calling to ask if I had any idea how to deal with this situation. Even though their company was not involved with ALPA, I knew that the physicians in the ALPA Aeromedical Office had knowledge in how to deal with such a situation. So, I suggested that Tom contact the experts here in Denver. He did and his suspicions were confirmed – the symptoms displayed by this pilot were indeed, consistent with someone contemplating suicide.
With that confirmation, that company was able to outline a plan to get the pilot help that was desperately needed. I think these actions literally saved his life.
Canadian Pilot Assistance
This program has been working well for a long time. When Alan, Mimi and I were working to form the ALPA CIRP, it was before the ALPA/CALPA merger. We turned to our brethren north of the border – those who at the time were active with CALPA’s Pilot Assistance Program – and asked for their assistance and counsel in developing our program. They were a big help to us.
So, this program, too, saves lives.
Conclusions
When I received the ALPA Air Safety Award in 2005 I cited words that are chiseled into the tombstone of Arthur Schindler. If you have seen the movie Schindler’s List or done any reading about the atrocities of the Nazi holocaust, you will recognize that Schindler was one who literally saved thousands from the death camps.
“And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.”
As I went through each of the above-mentioned disciplines, I noted that they save lives. CIRP, Professional Standards, HIMS, Aeromedical and Pilot Assistance – they all have potential to save lives.​

The work you are doing – it does save lives, and if you have saved just one life, it is as if you have saved an entire world.
So, yes, as I said at the beginning: ALPA work is important. It does matter, it does make a difference, and yes, it does save lives.
Now, back to that question - Pilot Assistance – Do We Even Need It Today? In case you haven’t figured it out by now, yes, we need it more now than ever.
ALPA is fortunate to have dedicated volunteers, staff and friends who are devoted to fulfilling this mission.
You are, as the slogan of this meeting says, “Meeting the challenge.”
Congratulations. Keep up the great work!​

 

[JoeMerchant]

Naw, just tired of self-serving pr*cks that leech off of the rest of us.

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is....... Everything about your career up till this point has been "self-serving".... You don't go from Gulfstream to Pinnacle to Air Tran to "better the profession".......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez, you didn't define "professional", you simply quoted a speech that gives accolade to various ALPA programs, such as HIMS and Pro Standards.... That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't prove that Skywest pilots are not professionals...... They are professionals in everyone's eyes except the ALPA zealots..... Is it any wonder the vote failed......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

By my definition, and the one I supplied, Skywest pilots are professionals...... If you ALPA cheerleaders want to say they aren't, then have at it..... You will probably just pi$$ off some of the YES voters.... Keep it up and the loss will be even larger next time...

Joe...wikipedia can be sourced by any clown... heck I wouldn't be surpised if you made an entry for the RJDC that would make your mother proud...

If you want to talk about guilds and writers who make jokes for Letterman and Leno.. that's fine...

Check out the FAA's Aviation Instructor Handbook

• Professionalism exists only when a service is performed for someone, or for the common good.​

• Professionalism is achieved only after extended training and preparation.
• True performance as a professional is based on study and research.
• Professionals must be able to reason logically and accurately.
• Professionalism requires the ability to make good judgmental decisions. Professionals cannot limit their actions and decisions to standard patterns and practices.
• Professionalism demands a code of ethics.
Professionals must be true to themselves and to those they service. Anything less than a sincere performance is quickly detected, and immediately​

destroys their effectiveness.
​

The 3rd bullet point.... do the SKYW pilots have study and research comparable to ALPA's?

The 5th bullet point... without the grievence process and representation it is harder to exercise good judgement... or at least judgement without fear or retribution from ones employer...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe...wikipedia can be sourced by any clown... heck I wouldn't be surpised if you made an entry for the RJDC that would make your mother proud...

If you want to talk about guilds and writers who make jokes for Letterman and Leno.. that's fine...

Check out the FAA's Aviation Instructor Handbook

• Professionalism exists only when a service is performed for someone, or for the common good.

• Professionalism is achieved only after extended training and preparation.​

• True performance as a professional is based on study and research.​

• Professionals must be able to reason logically and accurately.​

• Professionalism requires the ability to make good judgmental decisions. Professionals cannot limit their actions and decisions to standard patterns and practices.​

• Professionalism demands a code of ethics.​

Professionals must be true to themselves and to those they service. Anything less than a sincere performance is quickly detected, and immediately​

destroys their effectiveness.​

The 3rd bullet point.... do the SKYW pilots have study and research comparable to ALPA's?

The 5th bullet point... without the grievence process and representation it is harder to exercise good judgement... or at least judgement without fear or retribution from ones employer...

Interesting that you have now chosen to reference the FAA Aviation Instructors Handbook for professionalism...

1. Most Aviation Instructors are not members of a union..... Neither are Doctors or Lawyers..... Therefor we have now established that you do not need to be a member of a union to be a professional, even though that is the point you are trying to make...

2. How many ALPA pilots can site the ALPA code of ethics? How many ALPA pilots know were to find the ALPA code of ethics? How many ALPA pilots even know that there is an ALPA code of ethics?


3. Would you be happy if SAPA put together a Skywest pilot's "code of ethics"?

4. Your going to need a better reason to get people to give up 2% of their pay......

 

[DX Rick]

Mine is the biggest

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Interesting that you have now chosen to reference the FAA Aviation Instructors Handbook for professionalism...

You learn something new everyday Joe...

1. Most Aviation Instructors are not members of a union..... Neither are Doctors or Lawyers..... Therefor we have now established that you do not need to be a member of a union to be a professional, even though that is the point you are trying to make...

No but a code of ethics...

2. How many ALPA pilots can site the ALPA code of ethics? How many ALPA pilots know were to find the ALPA code of ethics? How many ALPA pilots even know that there is an ALPA code of ethics?

Maybe if you read the code you wouldn't have sued ALPA.....

But does it matter.... how many Americans have read the Dec and Constitution?

3. Would you be happy if SAPA put together a Skywest pilot's "code of ethics"?

If they did do you think it would be management flavored?

4. Your going to need a better reason to get people to give up 2% of their pay......

If the NTSB giving a blushing seal approval isn't enough then I don't know what is...

 

[JoeMerchant]

If the NTSB giving a blushing seal approval isn't enough then I don't know what is...

WOW..... a Government "blushing seal of approval"..... Not exactly overwelming evidence for a Libertarian like myself.... I'm not impressed with much our Federal Govt. does or says.....

We get it Rez.... You want the Skywest pilots to follow the ALPA code of ethics..... but they have to give up 1.95% of their pay for this privledge...... That won't get the votes Rez....

We need to get to the COLLECTIVE BARGAINING part of ALPA..... That is the problem....... There is no "collective" in it anymore.....