ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[PCL_128]

I asked on another thread how democratic a closed shop is.

There's no such thing as a closed shop in this country. They were outlawed many years ago. Guess you guys need to do a little more research before you can have an intelligent debate. Maybe you should learn the difference between closed shop and agency/union shop first?

 

[SERPICO]

Closed or not, then why take the liberty of making people members?
Is this what is called "thinking for the little folks".
I don't know tons about unions, but I guess you do. I just came on here to get a rise out of a couple of you. Some of the banter is really excessive and unnecessary. Good thing we have these forums.
Thanks for the educational advice, but I am sure I would win when it came to social etiquitte.

 

[PCL_128]

Closed or not, then why take the liberty of making people members?

That's what I'm trying to tell you. No one is automatically made a member. You have to apply for ALPA membership, even in an agency shop, which is different than a closed shop.

I just came on here to get a rise out of a couple of you.

That much is obvious. Maybe you should stop playing games and start thinking about the future of your profession and your career.

 

[BE90flyer]

Open Shop, Yeah right. Sure you dont have to join APLA but you pay either way.

 

[PCL_128]

Open Shop, Yeah right. Sure you dont have to join APLA but you pay either way.

You pay less if you aren't a member. You have to pay something because you are benefiting under the very contract that ALPA negotiated for you, whether you are a member or not.

 

[SERPICO]

You pay less if you aren't a member. You have to pay something because you are benefiting under the very contract that ALPA negotiated for you, whether you are a member or not.

I think you you missed the point genius.

As far as my profession, I don't want your help, I never asked for it.
If you are going to spend your life crying about it go do something else.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So Rez when is a privately held company a democracy? Shouldn’t Jerry be able to run his company as he sees fit? What gives you the right to tell a privately held company how much to pay his employees.

Why does an ALPA pilot want a freeloader on his jumpseat????? Again its not his jumpseat. Other then safety reasons, you have no right to deny anyone. I mean come on if I could ban anyone from the jumpseat I would ban Ugly men. Then how would you and PCL get to work??? Think about that.

Don't let facts get in your way...SkyWest is NOT a privately held company, the stock trades on the Nasdaq!

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA does as good a job as possible in representing the regionals, but they simply aren't career jobs. You can never make a career out of an airline that really isn't an airline, but rather a contractor for real airlines.

There it is folks..... The regionals aren't "real airlines"..... This from one of the biggest ALPA cheerleaders and the reason we are all in trouble.... mainline and regional alike.... These are airliners, we are airline pilots, and it was that very logic that got ALPA and the profession in trouble....

Way to go PCL..... you are losing more ALPA votes with each post......

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA's jumpseat policy is intentionally ambiguous so as to allow Captains the authority to make decisions about their own jumpseats. For every statement in the policy that states that ALPA discourages denials, there's two more statements that reiterate the Captain's authority to deny whoever he wants. The email that Nevets posted earlier was a knee-jerk response from National because of the deluge of complaints that the committee received about NWA Captains denying JetBlue pilots last year, but ALPA always defends the Captain's right to deny anybody he wants.

Transalation: Yet another ambiguous vague ALPA flip-flop.....

Funny how it's OK for PCL128 to disagree with ALPA when it suits him......

 

[PCL_128]

There it is folks..... The regionals aren't "real airlines"..... This from one of the biggest ALPA cheerleaders and the reason we are all in trouble.... mainline and regional alike.... These are airliners, we are airline pilots, and it was that very logic that got ALPA and the profession in trouble....

Way to go PCL..... you are losing more ALPA votes with each post......

Do you fly any of your own code, Joe? Do you have your own marketing? Sell your own tickets? Etc.... The fact is that the regionals are merely contractors. You may not like it, but it's a fact.

 

[SERPICO]

The fact is that the regionals are merely contractors. You may not like it, but it's a fact.

And that is what makes us numbers, just a bit of extra pocket change for ALPA. How much did the treasurer make last year.
A little more respect for regional drivers is in need here. ALPA takes their money but you are telling us that they actually don't give a rats ass.
But wait! They are idiots for not wanting ALPA?
Who is confused here?
Oh hang on, it's me. You can't treat the regionals as a career, how stupid of me. Thanks for setting us all straight Dad. So regional pilots are simply giving donations to improve the lives of those who should earn more and fly bigger equipment.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA takes their money but you are telling us that they actually don't give a rats ass.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything like that. ALPA most certainly "gives a rat's ass," but ALPA can't perform miracles and turn a contractor into a career airline. You can make the regional contracts better, and even improve job security to some degree, but as long as the regionals are merely contractors bidding for the next RFP, they don't have the stability to be career airlines.

So regional pilots are simply giving donations to improve the lives of those who should earn more and fly bigger equipment.

No, regional pilots are contributing to making their own airlines better. If it weren't for ALPA, the regionals wouldn't be anywhere near the level of compensation, work rules, and benefits that they have today, and that includes you guys at Skywest that have benefited from the pattern bargaining at other carriers. But none of this changes the fact that any regional can cease to exist next year because of the next RFP bid. That's the problem with trying to make a career out of a regional airline.

 

[SERPICO]

Why should you determine which company is worthy enough for one to make a career. You are simply treating these people as second class with your comments. Do you even work for a major?
What I fail to understand is your lack of respect for the decisions of individuals. It's a free country, right?
Nobody crossed a picket at SkyWest, it was their right to vote the way they did.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do you fly any of your own code, Joe? Do you have your own marketing? Sell your own tickets? Etc.... The fact is that the regionals are merely contractors. You may not like it, but it's a fact.

All of the above doesn't alter the fact that I consider my job and my company to be a career. If my union doesn't consider my job a career job, then it is time for my union to pack up and move on down the road....

This flying was part of a career at one time.... The mainline MEC's bargained it away.....That was a huge mistake.... It is now my career, and I will do what is best for me.... If you or any other "big airplane" driver doesn't like that.... to bad.....

We would ALL be better off if we considered EVERY airline job a "career job"......

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it weren't for ALPA, the regionals wouldn't be anywhere near the level of compensation, work rules, and benefits that they have today, and that includes you guys at Skywest that have benefited from the pattern bargaining at other carriers. But none of this changes the fact that any regional can cease to exist next year because of the next RFP bid. That's the problem with trying to make a career out of a regional airline.

If it wasn't for ALPA allowing RFP's to continue and "portfolio's" to continue, the pay for 70-90 seat flying would be higher. If it wasn't for people paying Gulfstream to sit in the right seat, we would all make more. If it wasn't for people then going to work for substandard Pinnacle, and then substandard AirTran, we would all make more.....

It isn't managment, and it isn't ALPA that has done the most harm...... We do most of it to ourselves...... and YOU have been a big part of the problem.... So save your sanctimonious BS for someone who may actually believe it..... Most of us know better......

 

[PCL_128]

Why should you determine which company is worthy enough for one to make a career. You are simply treating these people as second class with your comments. Do you even work for a major?

Yes, but not sure what that has to do with anything. I held the same opinions of the regionals when I worked there. They simply aren't stable enough to be career jobs at this point. If there is a way to make them more stable, then it may be possible to make a career out of a regional, but for now, it's just too risky. As of yet, I haven't heard of any workable solutions to ending the RFP nightmares, so trying to make a career out of a regional is a fool's errand. If you have some suggestions on fixing the RFP problem, then I'd love to hear them.

What I fail to understand is your lack of respect for the decisions of individuals. It's a free country, right?
Nobody crossed a picket at SkyWest, it was their right to vote the way they did.

And it's everyone else's right to disagree with them and tell them that there are consequences for those decisions. If JP wants to deny them jumpseats based on their decision, then that is his right. It seems that you want free reign to make your decisions, but you don't want to give JP the freedom to make decisions about his own jumpseat. Freedom of choice goes both ways, and union pilots have the freedom to tell you that there may be consequences for turning your back on the rest of the profession.

 

[PCL_128]

If my union doesn't consider my job a career job, then it is time for my union to pack up and move on down the road....

I don't speak for your union, Joe. I speak for me. In my own opinion, the regionals are not career airlines at this point. The ALPA leadership might disagree. You'd have to ask them.

This flying was part of a career at one time.... The mainline MEC's bargained it away.....That was a huge mistake.

We would ALL be better off if we considered EVERY airline job a "career job"......

Agreed, but how do we make it a reality? The mainline pilots screwed the pooch on this whole mess a very long time ago. We're talking two decades now since the EAL pilots started the ball rolling on giving up scope. It's been almost as long since DALPA gave up RJ flying because it "wasn't good enough" for them. After two decades, not only are we not making progress on fixing this fiasco, but it's actually getting worse! More and more flying is going out to contractors via RFP. How do we fix this? I'm not entirely sure we can, and that's why I'm telling you that I don't think the regionals are career airlines. If someone can provide some realistic solutions to the RFP mess, then I'm all ears. I would love to see the day that the regionals become career airlines, or even better, the day when "regionals" don't exist and everything is done under a single seniority list. I'm just not sure that that is an attainable goal.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed, but how do we make it a reality? The mainline pilots screwed the pooch on this whole mess a very long time ago. We're talking two decades now since the EAL pilots started the ball rolling on giving up scope. It's been almost as long since DALPA gave up RJ flying because it "wasn't good enough" for them. After two decades, not only are we not making progress on fixing this fiasco, but it's actually getting worse! More and more flying is going out to contractors via RFP. How do we fix this? I'm not entirely sure we can, and that's why I'm telling you that I don't think the regionals are career airlines. If someone can provide some realistic solutions to the RFP mess, then I'm all ears. I would love to see the day that the regionals become career airlines, or even better, the day when "regionals" don't exist and everything is done under a single seniority list. I'm just not sure that that is an attainable goal.

I've laid out what must be done.... It will require negotiating capital.... most of which will have to come from the mainline pilots through "brand scope".....

If it isn't an attainable goal, then I will do what is best for me.... including trying to fly bigger airplanes.... even if it comes at the expense of others....

It is "attainable", but nobody wants to spend the capital..... "attainable" and "willing to pay" are two very different issues....

ASA is a $125,000 total annual compensation job at the top..... with 18 days off per month and 4 weeks of vacation that are turned into 10-12 weeks of vacation.... That is most certainly a career..... which some of us are willing to protect at any cost....

 

[PCL_128]

I've laid out what must be done.... It will require negotiating capital.... most of which will have to come from the mainline pilots through "brand scope".....

We've been over this before. That ship has sailed. The portfolio is too large and distorted now to even determine who fits into each brand. The DAL brand would encompass just about every regional airline in the country. Kind of hard to create meaningful brand scope with a situation like that.

If it isn't an attainable goal, then I will do what is best for me.... including trying to fly bigger airplanes.... even if it comes at the expense of others....

It is "attainable", but nobody wants to spend the capital..... "attainable" and "willing to pay" are two very different issues....

ASA is a $125,000 total annual compensation job at the top..... with 18 days off per month and 4 weeks of vacation that are turned into 10-12 weeks of vacation.... That is most certainly a career..... which some of us are willing to protect at any cost....

The problem, Joe, is that that top end job at ASA won't be sustainable if guys with your mentality get the reigns. You've said that you're willing to underbid the next guy to keep your flying and to get bigger airplanes, but what if the next guy is willing to underbid you, and the next guy underbid even more, and so on, and so on? Eventually that $125k job with 18 days off turns into a $50k job with 8 days off because that's what it took to secure the latest RFP. This is the nightmare that we are faced with with the RFP disaster.

I agree that mainline pilot groups will have to shoulder most of the burden, but the key is finding a way that is mutually agreeable to making that happen. Unfortunately, I think what it would take is not something that you'd be open to. Think "furlough protection," J4J, etc... Mainline pilots, myself included, will want to see something in return for using our negotiating capital to fix the RFP mess. If I have to use negotiating capital to make your job more secure, then I want to see flowback to regional partners in case I get furloughed. Is that something that you would be willing to give up? I doubt it. You want the sacrifice to all come from the mainline pilots, and that's just not how it works.

 

[SERPICO]

Yes, but not sure what that has to do with anything. I held the same opinions of the regionals when I worked there. They simply aren't stable enough to be career jobs at this point.


And it's everyone else's right to disagree with them and tell them that there are consequences for those decisions. If JP wants to deny them jumpseats based on their decision, then that is his right. It seems that you want free reign to make your decisions, but you don't want to give JP the freedom to make decisions about his own jumpseat. Freedom of choice goes both ways, and union pilots have the freedom to tell you that there may be consequences for turning your back on the rest of the profession.

Majors are stable these days?

You should control your emotions at work darling. Determining the conseqeunces makes you a nice guy.
Ask a B6 driver if he out to ruin your profession. Whats the difference between them and citrus besides a union.