ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, I expect a lot more than that from people. Call it unrealistic if you want, but I expect people to have more common decency than to just look out for "number one" at the expense of everyone else.

Who were you looking out for when you paid an Eastern scab to sit in the cockpit of an airliner at Gulfstream? Who were you looking out for when you left Gulfstream to work for one of the worst RJ operators (Pinnacle)? Who were you looking out for when you left that job to go to Air Tran which is one of the lowest paying carriers for that type of equipment, especially in the right seat?

You were looking out for yourself, because if you were looking out for the profession, you wouldn't have gone to work for any of those carriers.....

Save your utopian BS......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Gandalf... problem is most pilots... ALPA including.. think that this profession is something to take from... they want want want... well anyone who is smart knows that if you a suck a resource dry without putting anything back... it will no longer proivde....

This concept is lost on the gimme crowd with short term solutions...

"I just wanna fly my trip and go home...leave me alone, I want to go home..."

On this we agree Rez.....

:beer:

...... now for the disagreement..... IMO, that will never change.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe....where have you been...... this thread has been raging all day.... you've got allot of catching up to do.... get busy....

 

[PCL_128]

Who were you looking out for when you paid an Eastern scab to sit in the cockpit of an airliner at Gulfstream? Who were you looking out for when you left Gulfstream to work for one of the worst RJ operators (Pinnacle)? Who were you looking out for when you left that job to go to Air Tran which is one of the lowest paying carriers for that type of equipment, especially in the right seat?

You were looking out for yourself, because if you were looking out for the profession, you wouldn't have gone to work for any of those carriers.....

Save your utopian BS......

John, I've answered all of those statements in the past, and I'm really not in the mood to argue with you tonight, so I'll just say: go fu&^ yourself.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Boy you ALPA cheerleaders don't have much fight in ya tonight.... What's a matter.... busy licking your wounds after that loss....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What a total load of cr@p..... it is no wonder people laugh at ALPA..... You are implying that Skywest pilots aren't professional because they don't belong to ALPA? ALPA pilots work for the "betterment of the public"...... Do you actually believe these Herndon talking points? Keep it up Rez and watch ALPA lose more elections......

No... they could have created thier own in house union and came up with thier own code of ethics...


Are you arguring the definition of a professional Joe? Do you know what a professional is Joe? Are you one? If so can you define what you are Joe?

 

[JoeMerchant]

No... they could have created thier own in house union and came up with thier own code of ethics...


Are you arguring the definition of a professional Joe? Do you know what a professional is Joe? Are you one? If so can you define what you are Joe?

So you have to be a member of a union to be a professional? Can you reference that definition?

Here is the Wikipedia definition..... I don't see "member of a union" anywhere.....

The second paragraph is interesting however..... ALPA may want to give that some consideration...



[edit] Definition

A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.

The above definitions were echoed by economist and sociologist Max Weber, who noted that professions are defined by the power to exclude and control admission to the profession, as well as by the development of a particular vocabulary specific to the occupation, and at least somewhat incomprehensible to outsiders.[citation needed]

 

[JoeMerchant]

Follow up to the Wikipedia definition of professional.... In the second paragraph, they reference "guilds".....

Here is a portion of the Wikipedia definition of "guild"..... More interesting stuff..... Notice they refer to the AMA, ABA, Realtors and Screen Actors Guild.... Don't see ALPA there.... In fact only 3 of the aforementioned are unions......



Influence of guilds
Guilds are sometimes said to be the precursors of modern trade unions, and also, paradoxically, of some aspects of the modern corporation. Guilds, however, were groups of self-employed skilled craftsmen with ownership and control over the materials and tools they needed to produce their goods. Guilds were, in other words, small business associations and thus had very little in common with trade unions. If anything, guilds were more like cartels than they were like trade unions (Olson 1982). However, the journeymen organizations, which were at the time illegal, may have been influential.
The exclusive privilege of a guild to produce certain goods or provide certain services was similar in spirit and character with the original patent systems that surfaced in England in 1624. These systems played a role in ending the guilds' dominance, as trade secret methods were superseded by modern firms directly revealing their techniques, and counting on the state to enforce their legal monopoly.
Some guild traditions still remain in a few handicrafts, in Europe especially among shoemakers and barbers. Some of the ritual traditions of the guilds were conserved in order organizations such as the Freemasons. These are, however, not very important economically except as reminders of the responsibilities of some trades toward the public.
Modern antitrust law could be said to be derived in some ways from the original statutes by which the guilds were abolished in Europe.

[edit] Modern guilds

Modern guilds exist in different forms around the world. In many European countries guilds have had a revival as local organisations for craftsmen, primarily in traditional skills. They may function as fora for developing competence and are often the local units of a national employers organization.

In the United States guilds exist in several fields. The Screen Actors Guild and Writers Guild of America are capable of exercising very strong control in Hollywood because a very strong and rigid system of intellectual property respect exists (as with some medieval trades). These guilds exclude other actors and writers who do not abide by the strict rules for competing within the film and television industry in America.

Quilting guilds are also very common and are found in almost all areas of the United States.
Real estate brokerage is an excellent example of a modern American guild. Telltale signs of guild behavior are on display in real estate brokerage: standard pricing (6% of the home price), strong affiliation among all practitioners, self-regulation (see National Association of Realtors), strong cultural identity (see Realtor), little price variation with quality differences, and traditional methods in use by all practitioners. In September 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against the National Association of Realtors challenging NAR practices that, DOJ asserts, prevent competition from practitioners who use different methods. The DOJ and the Federal Trade Commission in 2005 advocated against state laws, supported by NAR, that disadvantage new kinds of brokers. For a description of the DOJ action, see [1]. U.S. v. National Assoc. of Realtors, U.S. District Court Norther District Illinois, Eastern Division, September 7, 2005, Civil Action No. 05C-5140.
The practice of law in the United States is also an example of modern guilds at work. Every state maintains its own Bar Association, supervised by that state's highest court. The court decides the criteria for being admitted to, and remaining a member of, the legal profession. In most states, every attorney must be a member of that state's Bar in order to practice law. State laws forbid any person from engaging in the unauthorized practice of law and practicing attorneys are subject to rules of professional conduct that are enforced by the state's high court.

Other associations which can be classified as guilds, though it isn't evident in their names, include the American Medical Association and the American Bar Association.

Scholars from the history of ideas have noticed that consultants play a part similar to that of the journeymen of the guild systems: they often travel a lot, work at many different companies and spread new practices and knowledge between companies and corporations.

Many professional organizations similarly resemble the guild structure. Professions such as architecture, engineering, and land surveying require varying lengths of apprenticeships before one can be granted a 'professional' certification. These certifications hold great legal weight and are required in most states as a prerequisite to doing business there.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Profession

characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"

Codes of Conduct and Ethics Guidelines
Rules of conduct or ethical codes are often considered to be characteristic of professions, as opposed to craft and trade associations.

Code of Ethics
Rules and procedures of professional conduct

 

[JoeMerchant]

Profession

characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"

Codes of Conduct and Ethics Guidelines
Rules of conduct or ethical codes are often considered to be characteristic of professions, as opposed to craft and trade associations.

Code of Ethics
Rules and procedures of professional conduct

By my definition, and the one I supplied, Skywest pilots are professionals...... If you ALPA cheerleaders want to say they aren't, then have at it..... You will probably just pi$$ off some of the YES voters.... Keep it up and the loss will be even larger next time...