ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[Soverytired]

That sucks...the person that did that is an asshat AND a vandal.

True.

However, there is a dark side to union activity that everyone likes to dance around that no one likes to talk about. And that's intimidation, threats, physical assault and sabotage.

Examples of this include:

• hostile cold shoulders ("checklists only", to hell with CRM),
• verbal insults,
• snapping pictures of license plates,
• slashing tires of cars in the parking lot
• loitering around private residences,
• telephone harassment,
• threats of physical violence
• actual physical violence
• sabotage of company equipment (planes) to the detriment of passenger safety

These are the calling cards of unions world-wide, and the tacit "well, it may be wrong but they deserved it" attitude many card carrying union members makes my stomach turn.

And don't tell me ALPA isn't that kind of union. I've either seen or been told by people I know and trust specific examples of all of the above.

 

[John Pennekamp]

True.

However, there is a dark side to union activity that everyone likes to dance around that no one likes to talk about. And that's intimidation, threats, physical assault and sabotage.

Examples of this include:

• hostile cold shoulders ("checklists only", to hell with CRM),
• verbal insults,
• snapping pictures of license plates,
• slashing tires of cars in the parking lot
• loitering around private residences,
• telephone harassment,
• threats of physical violence
• actual physical violence
• sabotage of company equipment (planes) to the detriment of passenger safety

These are the calling cards of unions world-wide, and the tacit "well, it may be wrong but they deserved it" attitude many card carrying union members makes my stomach turn.

And don't tell me ALPA isn't that kind of union. I've either seen or been told by people I know and trust specific examples of all of the above.

YGBFKM! You watch too much TV. I challenge you to provide recent documentation of all the events you mention.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

This isn't the IBEW or the Teamsters, well, most of us anyways. Great stories always make their way around the crew lounge, but that doesn't mean they're true. I would love to see any documentation you can provide that a card carrying ALPA member has participated in these actions.

 

[John Pennekamp]

This isn't the IBEW or the Teamsters, well, most of us anyways. Great stories always make their way around the crew lounge, but that doesn't mean they're true. I would love to see any documentation you can provide that a card carrying ALPA member has participated in these actions.

Exactly. TBS must have shown "Hoffa" last night...

 

[SkyNation]

Does anyone on FI actually know PCL? I am curious to see if he is this big of a dumbbbbasss in person.

PCL paid to sit right seat at GIA, then went to the glory that is Pinnacle, is now at AirTran. Says he'd rather work at Mesa than at SkyWest, and according to JP would get his ass handed to him in a fight with Joe_Merchant.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Pay for training was the standard back in the day, nothing wrong with that, but it's not the way its done now. I wouldn't want to go up against the Merchant either. Skynation, have you actually flown with PCL?

 

[strega7]

YGBFKM! You watch too much TV. I challenge you to provide recent documentation of all the events you mention.

Read Flying the Line Vol. 1/2. If I remember correctly they have some "great" stories about this type behavior. And wasn't there a group (Comair ALPA pilots) of guys that chased down those 2 pilots during the strike who were repositioning a RJ? Didn't they try and turn them into the FAA for not comply with the Flap AD? Wasn't there Ameriflight pilots video taped flying during the drivers strike? And I "friend" of mine once "made disappear" the airworthiness cert. on a plane one morning and cancelled the flight because of a lack of new contract. He was ALPA and the airline didn't have the fax copy exemption.

It not just TV. These things happen. Most of the time it's individuals that do them and give the union a bad reputation. However the union can't appear weak and come down hard on its members. Catch 22.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Read Flying the Line Vol. 1/2. If I remember correctly they have some "great" stories about this type behavior. And wasn't there a group (Comair ALPA pilots) of guys that chased down those 2 pilots during the strike who were repositioning a RJ? Didn't they try and turn them into the FAA for not comply with the Flap AD? Wasn't there Ameriflight pilots video taped flying during the drivers strike? And I "friend" of mine once "made disappear" the airworthiness cert. on a plane one morning and cancelled the flight because of a lack of new contract. He was ALPA and the airline didn't have the fax copy exemption.

It not just TV. These things happen. Most of the time it's individuals that do them and give the union a bad reputation. However the union can't appear weak and come down hard on its members. Catch 22.

I understand there are/were few EAL guys in jail for assualt. Not sure if ALPA was conncected or directed violence... at any time in its history...

There are plenty of Americans to conduct violonce in the name of the US gov't. There are plenty of religious people that commit violence on the name of Jesus Christ....

but let's be real here folks.....

Once again... ALPA has the respect of the industry players... gov't, management, etc...except its members...

 

[SkyNation]

Skynation, have you actually flown with PCL?

no. God willing, I never will either.

 

[PCL_128]

This isn't the IBEW or the Teamsters, well, most of us anyways. Great stories always make their way around the crew lounge, but that doesn't mean they're true. I would love to see any documentation you can provide that a card carrying ALPA member has participated in these actions.

It happens, but not at the direction of the Association. ALPA has never advocated or defended any such actions. Members act on their own out of frustration, and the Association certainly can't stop them. There were a handful of CAL strikers that were arrested back in the '83 strike for attempting to blow up mailboxes of SCABs, and I think Rez is correct about a few EAL pilots getting assault charges down in MIA, but those are the only cases I'm aware of, and ALPA never had anything to do with them. It was merely members acting on their own.

 

[Nevets]

ALPA's jumpseat policy is intentionally ambiguous so as to allow Captains the authority to make decisions about their own jumpseats. For every statement in the policy that states that ALPA discourages denials, there's two more statements that reiterate the Captain's authority to deny whoever he wants. The email that Nevets posted earlier was a knee-jerk response from National because of the deluge of complaints that the committee received about NWA Captains denying JetBlue pilots last year, but ALPA always defends the Captain's right to deny anybody he wants.

Here is the WHOLE ALPA Jumpseat Policy. Your company will determine its jumpseat policy (dress code, priority, etc). The captain should prohibit jumpseaters if it compromises safety (your comapny will also expect this of you).

PART 1 - JUMPSEAT POLICY

SOURCE - Executive Board October 1997; AMENDED - Board 2000
The following policy provides guidelines that may be used by Master Executive Councils in establishing jumpseat policies and procedures with their respective airlines.
ALPA encourages participation by other pilot unions and officials of non-represented airlines in the industry-wide Jumpseat Task Force.
ALPA encourages all pilots to extend the use of their jumpseats to eligible cockpit crewmembers as a professional courtesy and as a resource to enhance the safety of flight. The Captain is, and shall always be, the final authority as to admission to the flight deck.
Denial of jumpseat privileges as a means of punishing, coercing or retaliating against other pilot groups or individuals is not supported by ALPA. The Jumpseat and/or Professional Standards Representative appointed by the respective Master Executive Council or governing body should resolve disputes that arise between pilots, airlines or other unions.
Master Executive Councils should appoint a Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee Chairperson and authorize him/her to work with their Company in establishing and administering jumpseat policy and procedures.
A.MEC JUMPSEAT COORDINATOR/COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON

1.Guidelines for selection of Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee Chairperson

a.Experience - must be knowledgeable of the applicable Federal Aviation Regulations, associated legal interpretations and specific company policies that affect jumpseat usage at their respective airline.

b.Appointment/Term of Office - per MEC policy.

2.Funding for MEC Jumpseat Coordinators/Committee Chairpersons

a.Necessary funding for the MEC Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee Chairperson should be arranged by the respective MEC. Funding considerations should include flight pay loss, as well as other related expenses, to adequately represent pilot issues.

B.DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF JUMPSEAT COORDINATORS/COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSONS

1.Establish appropriate communication with the MEC to insure proper administration and compliance with the respective airline's jumpseat program.

a.The Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee Chairperson should report directly to the MEC Chairperson or designated appointee. The Coordinator or Chairperson should be authorized to represent the MEC in dealings with Company Officers on jumpseat matters. Issues of a critical nature should immediately be addressed to the MEC Chairperson.

2.Maintain an accurate file of company and industry-wide jumpseat policy and procedures.

a.When changes occur, the MEC Jumpseat Coordinator or Committee Chairperson should communicate them to the ALPA National Jumpseat Committee Chairperson for appropriate dissemination. ALPA resources will be used to keep all members of the Jumpseat Task Force informed on specific airline policies and procedures.

b.Communicate company and industry-wide changes of jumpseat procedures and protocol to the pilot group and other affected company employees. Appropriate union and/or company media sources should be incorporated to accomplish this.

3.Address and resolve issues that may arise over jumpseat authority and usage in a timely manner. Reciprocal airline and other off-line matters should be discussed with the associated Jumpseat Coordinator. Discussions beyond ALPA represented carriers should include the ALPA National Jumpseat Chairperson.

4.Submit a Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee report at all regularly scheduled meetings of the MEC, or as otherwise directed.

C.ADMISSION TO FLIGHT DECK

1.Captains should be familiar with applicable Federal Air Regulations and their own Company policies concerning jumpseat use.

2.ALPA supports the Captain's authority to manage the flight deck environment and resources in a manner that enhances safety. Accordingly, ALPA supports the Captain's authority to exclude any person other than required crew from the flight deck if, in his opinion, that person's presence will compromise safety.

3.If a jumpseat rider is to remain on the flight deck, the Captain will ensure that he/she is properly briefed on safety, communication and evacuation procedures. This may be done verbally or by means of a printed aircraft specific briefing card.

4.ALPA and most airlines consider a pilot jumpseat rider as an additional crewmember. Pilot jumpseat riders must be prepared to exercise flight related tasks that the Captain may assign.

D.CABIN SEATING

1.In accordance with company policy, if a cabin seat(s) is available, the Captain may offer it to a jumpseat rider(s) to accommodate additional jumpseat requests. Appropriate procedures for such accommodations should be adopted and developed as Company policy.

2.As representatives of their airline and profession, jumpseat riders must conduct themselves in a manner that is above reproach at all times.

3.Although seated in the cabin, jumpseat riders may be asked to assist the cockpit or cabin crew in certain situations.

E.SECURITY/IDENTIFICATION

1.Without exception, security is paramount in all aspects of aviation safety. The Captain is responsible for ensuring that all jumpseat riders admitted to the flight deck have in their possession the proper documentation. For pilots, this shall include airmen's certification and valid company ID. Jumpseat riders should have this identification readily available for inspection.

2.Host Captains should recognize that a union membership card is another means of identity verification, although not all pilots of represented airlines are union members.

3.Under the Captain's authority, entry to the flight deck will not be permitted for individuals with whom the Captain or his flight deck crew is not entirely comfortable.

F.JUMPSEAT FRAUD AND ABUSE

1.A fraudulent jumpseat rider is an individual attempting to gain access to a flight deck by knowingly being deceptive. Counterfeit IDs, failure of medical certificate standards or dismissal by the presented employer constitute fraudulent representation.

2.An abuse of the jumpseat privilege includes, but is not limited to, individuals revenue positioning at company request for reasons other than commuting to or from work or on personal business.

G.BOARDING PRIORITY

1.It is understood that certain individuals, such as government or company officials in the performance of their duties, must be given free and unlimited access to the cockpit by FAR. Seniority, first-come, first-served or a reservation system may be used for company and off-line pilots.

2.Extending preferential boarding to specific carriers shall be reviewed and amended when determined appropriate by the Coordinator/Chairperson, the MEC and the Company.

3.Within boarding priority, most airlines accommodate off-line jumpseat riders on a first-come, first-served basis. Due consideration should be given to union affiliation. Any problems that arise should be quickly referred to the Captain for resolution.

4.Company boarding priority for other individuals shall be mutually developed by the Jumpseat Coordinator/Committee Chairperson, the airline management and the MEC.

H.OTHER JUMPSEAT REQUESTS

1.The FAA has an established procedure whereby air traffic controllers are allowed access to the cockpit for familiarization flights. ALPA supports these familiarization flights and encourages pilots to welcome controllers into their cockpits for this purpose. ATC personnel must have in their possession FAA Form 3120-28 Parts A&B, FAA Form 3120-31 and their FAA identification card/badge.

2.Foreign air carrier pilots, FAA licensed dispatchers and other individuals may be accommodated with authorization by the FAA and company flight management authorities.

I.NATIONAL JUMPSEAT REGISTRY

SOURCE - Board 2000; AMENDED - Executive Board May 2001
The ALPA Jumpseat Committee shall produce and maintain a National Jumpseat Registry. The airlines listed will abide by ALPA Jumpseat Policy and shall have appointed Jumpseat Coordinators to work with the ALPA sponsored Industry Jumpseat Task Force. The Registry will be disseminated within ALPA to Master Executive Councils and their appointed Jumpseat Coordinators to use as they see fit.

 

[Soverytired]

YGBFKM! You watch too much TV. I challenge you to provide recent documentation of all the events you mention.

Don't think this stuff happens, huh? If you can't "google" it, it must not exist?

Do you seriously believe that no "Go-Jets" or "Freedom-A" pilots:

• Were threatened and shoved on a ramp? Or "called out" at a shared hotel bar for a fight in the street?
• Never had a car "keyed" or tire(s) go mysteriously flat in a shared employee parking lot (or worse)?
• Never had their license plate and likeness photographed when walking into the training center as a new hire?
• Found parts missing from airplanes like airworthiness certificates or ash trays in the a lavs, grounding an airplane. (Now they have to start thinking about what else has been tampered with.)

Now imagine how that would make you feel if you had a family you had to look out for and this crip was going on.

ALPA leadership would NEVER condone this activity, nor would 99% of the pilots participate in it. But that doesn't mean they don't benefit from it when it takes place.

Saying "they deserved it" is tacit approval. I certainly understand the sentiment. But imagine how much worse things would have gotten if actual picket lines had been crossed.

It's simply a fact of life that there is a "intimidation factor" that unions exploit and benefit from. Less so in airline unions, to be sure, but it's there nonetheless.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And in management too... quit trying to make a union thing... where there are people there will be intimidation....

 

[Soverytired]

And in management too... quit trying to make a union thing... where there are people there will be intimidation....

Hmm.

Your employer can use the threat of job termination as a threat.

Your union (excuse me, misguided members of a union) can use the threat of personal property damage, aircraft damage, and physical violence against both a pilot and his loved ones.

Yeah, you're right. It's exactly the same thing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hmm.

Your employer can use the threat of job termination as a threat.

This threat is real...

Your union (excuse me, misguided members of a union) can use the threat of personal property damage, aircraft damage, and physical violence against both a pilot and his loved ones.

Yeah, you're right. It's exactly the same thing.

This is what you need to to be to hate ALPA...

 

[BE90flyer]

Alright.......You union guys want it, you got it.....

A full out jumpseat war............................

Oh wait I dont work at an airline anymore. What to do?

*If I am walking through a door in front of you. I wont hold it open.

*If your car breaks down on the side of the road. No help from me!

*If you stop breathing. No CPR from me!

*If you are behind me at Mcdonalds, I will take extra long ordering!

*If we pass on the highway. I will put up my middle finger!

*If you need change for a ten to use a vending machine. Dont ask me!

*If you are sick in the hosptial. No flowers or card from me.

*I will not bless you if you sneeze.

*I will not tell you have snot hanging from your nose.

*I will not lend a hand

*I will not let you use my schoulders to cry on.

*If you are near me. I will not do on to others as I want done to me.


There take that all you union guys. Rez, PCL, Ozam, and all the other union gurus are doing more to hurt ALPA then they are to help it. Give it a rest, you cant force someone to like and accept a union.(period)

But then again this is only Flightinfo....not the real world.

 

[Soverytired]

If ALPA could just:

• Negotiate industry leading contracts (for the regionals AND the majors)
• Effectively lobby Congress to get the rest and duty time regulations changed
• Effectively lobby Congress to reflect the majority opinion of the pilots for the age 60 rule (pro or con, don't matter)
• Effectively lobby Congress for legislative relief on pension reform and a social security disbursement exception based on the unique mandatory retirement age of pilots
• Reduce overhead, then reduce dues
• Have additional non-ALPA carriers vote themselves overwhelmingly into the fold
• Have a "Swimsuit edition" of the ALPA magazine once a year

In short, produce some really obvious results for the entire group, (as opposed to saving Captain "Can't fly for szht"'s job on a regular basis), ALPA is going to do just fine.

 

[John Pennekamp]

*yawn*

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA could just:

• Negotiate industry leading contracts (for the regionals AND the majors)

What about you? What are you going to do to help ALPA fullfill your "wishlist"

• Effectively lobby Congress to get the rest and duty time regulations changed

How much do you give to ALPA-PAC. Only 14% of ALPA members give to ALPA-PAC. IF the particaption rate was 85% I bet we could do some serious damage. Change the RLA... do you give to ALPA-PAC?

• Effectively lobby Congress to reflect the majority opinion of the pilots for the age 60 rule (pro or con, don't matter)

HA! Again.... too few pilots bother to particapte... ALPA is the gun but you gotta feed the ammo. Guess who the ammo is...

ALPA is not regulatory....or controlling... we must have consensus!!!

Effectively lobby Congress for legislative relief on pension reform and a social security disbursement exception based on the unique mandatory retirement age of pilots

Already in process..... but only 14% of ALPA pilots give to the PAC so lobbying is limited and prioritzed...

• Reduce overhead, then reduce dues

Overhead was significantky reduced already... I am begining to think that you don't pay too much attention. And this is a problem... instead of progressing on the issues.. we are regressing...trying to school you on what you should already know...

can you fly a jet effectively if your FO can't even fly instruments?

Have additional non-ALPA carriers vote themselves overwhelmingly into the fold

nice..

• Have a "Swimsuit edition" of the ALPA magazine once a year

We can have Joe Merchant as the centerfold!

In short, produce some really obvious results for the entire group, (as opposed to saving Captain "Can't fly for szht"'s job on a regular basis), ALPA is going to do just fine.

Not going to happen as long as pilots keep doing nothing..... you can have wishlists all you want... but what is needed is particaption..

 

[WalterSobchak]

[/list]Not going to happen as long as pilots keep doing nothing..... you can have wishlists all you want... but what is needed is particaption..

OK then, Rez...how about this?

If it is solely lack of participation in their union that is keeping the pilots of ALPA carriers from attaining the goals they wish to reach...how about ALPA national spend a little less time and money on trying to bring in new pilot groups (that have a history of not wanting to be unionized as it is) and more on getting their current membership excited and active in the participation.

To the guy on the outside looking in...and based strictly on the amount of comments by pilots of ALPA carriers who seem to share a sort of disdain for the job that ALPA does for thier pilot group...it really seems as though little is being done by ALPA National to really get the current membership truly involved and informed in how they can make changes for the betterment of their careers.