ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[SERPICO]

The fact is that the regionals are merely contractors. You may not like it, but it's a fact.

And that is what makes us numbers, just a bit of extra pocket change for ALPA. How much did the treasurer make last year.
A little more respect for regional drivers is in need here. ALPA takes their money but you are telling us that they actually don't give a rats ass.
But wait! They are idiots for not wanting ALPA?
Who is confused here?
Oh hang on, it's me. You can't treat the regionals as a career, how stupid of me. Thanks for setting us all straight Dad. So regional pilots are simply giving donations to improve the lives of those who should earn more and fly bigger equipment.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA takes their money but you are telling us that they actually don't give a rats ass.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything like that. ALPA most certainly "gives a rat's ass," but ALPA can't perform miracles and turn a contractor into a career airline. You can make the regional contracts better, and even improve job security to some degree, but as long as the regionals are merely contractors bidding for the next RFP, they don't have the stability to be career airlines.

So regional pilots are simply giving donations to improve the lives of those who should earn more and fly bigger equipment.

No, regional pilots are contributing to making their own airlines better. If it weren't for ALPA, the regionals wouldn't be anywhere near the level of compensation, work rules, and benefits that they have today, and that includes you guys at Skywest that have benefited from the pattern bargaining at other carriers. But none of this changes the fact that any regional can cease to exist next year because of the next RFP bid. That's the problem with trying to make a career out of a regional airline.

 

[SERPICO]

Why should you determine which company is worthy enough for one to make a career. You are simply treating these people as second class with your comments. Do you even work for a major?
What I fail to understand is your lack of respect for the decisions of individuals. It's a free country, right?
Nobody crossed a picket at SkyWest, it was their right to vote the way they did.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do you fly any of your own code, Joe? Do you have your own marketing? Sell your own tickets? Etc.... The fact is that the regionals are merely contractors. You may not like it, but it's a fact.

All of the above doesn't alter the fact that I consider my job and my company to be a career. If my union doesn't consider my job a career job, then it is time for my union to pack up and move on down the road....

This flying was part of a career at one time.... The mainline MEC's bargained it away.....That was a huge mistake.... It is now my career, and I will do what is best for me.... If you or any other "big airplane" driver doesn't like that.... to bad.....

We would ALL be better off if we considered EVERY airline job a "career job"......

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it weren't for ALPA, the regionals wouldn't be anywhere near the level of compensation, work rules, and benefits that they have today, and that includes you guys at Skywest that have benefited from the pattern bargaining at other carriers. But none of this changes the fact that any regional can cease to exist next year because of the next RFP bid. That's the problem with trying to make a career out of a regional airline.

If it wasn't for ALPA allowing RFP's to continue and "portfolio's" to continue, the pay for 70-90 seat flying would be higher. If it wasn't for people paying Gulfstream to sit in the right seat, we would all make more. If it wasn't for people then going to work for substandard Pinnacle, and then substandard AirTran, we would all make more.....

It isn't managment, and it isn't ALPA that has done the most harm...... We do most of it to ourselves...... and YOU have been a big part of the problem.... So save your sanctimonious BS for someone who may actually believe it..... Most of us know better......

 

[PCL_128]

Why should you determine which company is worthy enough for one to make a career. You are simply treating these people as second class with your comments. Do you even work for a major?

Yes, but not sure what that has to do with anything. I held the same opinions of the regionals when I worked there. They simply aren't stable enough to be career jobs at this point. If there is a way to make them more stable, then it may be possible to make a career out of a regional, but for now, it's just too risky. As of yet, I haven't heard of any workable solutions to ending the RFP nightmares, so trying to make a career out of a regional is a fool's errand. If you have some suggestions on fixing the RFP problem, then I'd love to hear them.

What I fail to understand is your lack of respect for the decisions of individuals. It's a free country, right?
Nobody crossed a picket at SkyWest, it was their right to vote the way they did.

And it's everyone else's right to disagree with them and tell them that there are consequences for those decisions. If JP wants to deny them jumpseats based on their decision, then that is his right. It seems that you want free reign to make your decisions, but you don't want to give JP the freedom to make decisions about his own jumpseat. Freedom of choice goes both ways, and union pilots have the freedom to tell you that there may be consequences for turning your back on the rest of the profession.

 

[PCL_128]

If my union doesn't consider my job a career job, then it is time for my union to pack up and move on down the road....

I don't speak for your union, Joe. I speak for me. In my own opinion, the regionals are not career airlines at this point. The ALPA leadership might disagree. You'd have to ask them.

This flying was part of a career at one time.... The mainline MEC's bargained it away.....That was a huge mistake.

We would ALL be better off if we considered EVERY airline job a "career job"......

Agreed, but how do we make it a reality? The mainline pilots screwed the pooch on this whole mess a very long time ago. We're talking two decades now since the EAL pilots started the ball rolling on giving up scope. It's been almost as long since DALPA gave up RJ flying because it "wasn't good enough" for them. After two decades, not only are we not making progress on fixing this fiasco, but it's actually getting worse! More and more flying is going out to contractors via RFP. How do we fix this? I'm not entirely sure we can, and that's why I'm telling you that I don't think the regionals are career airlines. If someone can provide some realistic solutions to the RFP mess, then I'm all ears. I would love to see the day that the regionals become career airlines, or even better, the day when "regionals" don't exist and everything is done under a single seniority list. I'm just not sure that that is an attainable goal.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed, but how do we make it a reality? The mainline pilots screwed the pooch on this whole mess a very long time ago. We're talking two decades now since the EAL pilots started the ball rolling on giving up scope. It's been almost as long since DALPA gave up RJ flying because it "wasn't good enough" for them. After two decades, not only are we not making progress on fixing this fiasco, but it's actually getting worse! More and more flying is going out to contractors via RFP. How do we fix this? I'm not entirely sure we can, and that's why I'm telling you that I don't think the regionals are career airlines. If someone can provide some realistic solutions to the RFP mess, then I'm all ears. I would love to see the day that the regionals become career airlines, or even better, the day when "regionals" don't exist and everything is done under a single seniority list. I'm just not sure that that is an attainable goal.

I've laid out what must be done.... It will require negotiating capital.... most of which will have to come from the mainline pilots through "brand scope".....

If it isn't an attainable goal, then I will do what is best for me.... including trying to fly bigger airplanes.... even if it comes at the expense of others....

It is "attainable", but nobody wants to spend the capital..... "attainable" and "willing to pay" are two very different issues....

ASA is a $125,000 total annual compensation job at the top..... with 18 days off per month and 4 weeks of vacation that are turned into 10-12 weeks of vacation.... That is most certainly a career..... which some of us are willing to protect at any cost....

 

[PCL_128]

I've laid out what must be done.... It will require negotiating capital.... most of which will have to come from the mainline pilots through "brand scope".....

We've been over this before. That ship has sailed. The portfolio is too large and distorted now to even determine who fits into each brand. The DAL brand would encompass just about every regional airline in the country. Kind of hard to create meaningful brand scope with a situation like that.

If it isn't an attainable goal, then I will do what is best for me.... including trying to fly bigger airplanes.... even if it comes at the expense of others....

It is "attainable", but nobody wants to spend the capital..... "attainable" and "willing to pay" are two very different issues....

ASA is a $125,000 total annual compensation job at the top..... with 18 days off per month and 4 weeks of vacation that are turned into 10-12 weeks of vacation.... That is most certainly a career..... which some of us are willing to protect at any cost....

The problem, Joe, is that that top end job at ASA won't be sustainable if guys with your mentality get the reigns. You've said that you're willing to underbid the next guy to keep your flying and to get bigger airplanes, but what if the next guy is willing to underbid you, and the next guy underbid even more, and so on, and so on? Eventually that $125k job with 18 days off turns into a $50k job with 8 days off because that's what it took to secure the latest RFP. This is the nightmare that we are faced with with the RFP disaster.

I agree that mainline pilot groups will have to shoulder most of the burden, but the key is finding a way that is mutually agreeable to making that happen. Unfortunately, I think what it would take is not something that you'd be open to. Think "furlough protection," J4J, etc... Mainline pilots, myself included, will want to see something in return for using our negotiating capital to fix the RFP mess. If I have to use negotiating capital to make your job more secure, then I want to see flowback to regional partners in case I get furloughed. Is that something that you would be willing to give up? I doubt it. You want the sacrifice to all come from the mainline pilots, and that's just not how it works.

 

[SERPICO]

Yes, but not sure what that has to do with anything. I held the same opinions of the regionals when I worked there. They simply aren't stable enough to be career jobs at this point.


And it's everyone else's right to disagree with them and tell them that there are consequences for those decisions. If JP wants to deny them jumpseats based on their decision, then that is his right. It seems that you want free reign to make your decisions, but you don't want to give JP the freedom to make decisions about his own jumpseat. Freedom of choice goes both ways, and union pilots have the freedom to tell you that there may be consequences for turning your back on the rest of the profession.

Majors are stable these days?

You should control your emotions at work darling. Determining the conseqeunces makes you a nice guy.
Ask a B6 driver if he out to ruin your profession. Whats the difference between them and citrus besides a union.

 

[PCL_128]

Majors are stable these days?

We control our own code. Any outsourcing that is done by our companies has to be approved by our pilot groups first. We just voted down two TAs that would have allowed management to outsource bigger airplanes. Can you vote it down if Delta management decides to RFP some of your flying to a lower bidder? Nope. It's completely out of your hands. That's what makes regionals so risky for a career.

Ask a B6 driver if he out to ruin your profession. Whats the difference between them and citrus besides a union.

The difference is simple. We are fighting to improve our careers and profession, and the non-union B6 pilots are just taking whatever management throws to them. Without a union, you have no ability to fight to improve your career and your profession.

 

[SERPICO]

Without a union, you have no ability to fight to improve your career and your profession.

I have a voice, a set of balls and a pair of legs I use to walk with. I can walk on my terms, not when a union, that is out of touch and several generations behind decides. I may be stubborn and end up in last place, but if "Pilot Unity Pays" I know I have practised it as an individual and will do it again if I have to. Be careful not to insult the union of course, they know whats best for everyone.
It is time for a change, until that time comes, I have to operate within this system the best way possible. I have no intention, nor will I go out of my way to screw anyone, but the union is living in the past.

 

[PCL_128]

If you use your legs to walk to another job, then you start at the bottom again. That's not a real choice. Management has your by the balls, and the only thing you have to protect yourself is a union.

 

[SERPICO]

Speak for yourself, I'm qualified enough to fly in other sectors beside the airlines. I built my experience doing other flying. My eggs ain't all in the same basket.
Oh, and nobody at work puts their hands on my balls.

 

[BE90flyer]

A question for PCL. When you accepted your current job at Airtran, did you tell them what they are in for?

I assume the conversation went something like

“Thank you Air Tran for the job offer. I accept your offer of employment at the pay scale and current work rules you are offering.

I do however fill the need to warn you that at anytime of my employment I might decide that the pay I agreed upon is not enough. Also I might determine the work rules that I agree to now are bad. If this happens I will demand more money from you, if I don’t get it I will cry foul and strike. If I need more vacations or more commutable trips, I will demand them. If not I may strike and try to shut down your airline. Oh I won’t quit because that would mean starting over, I will just expect and demand you comply with everything I want.

OK, now that I have that out in the open. I accept your job offer."

Union were meant to protect workers against unfair work rule i.e. forced overtime, child labor. Not to make your career choice the best career there is.

Does anyone on FI actually know PCL? I am curious to see if he is this big of a dumbbbbasss in person.

 

[BE90flyer]

deleted

 

[evilbeef54]

Ooooh, go for it. I don't commute.

for someone who says that Skywest screwed over everyone in the industry and is only looking out for them selves, you seem to be doing the exact same thing. You say that you will deny any OO guy a jumpseat, well guess what, a LOT of your fellow ALPA guys use Skywest to comute to and from work, and this is a two way street. If we start getting denied jumpseats you will start getting denied jumpseats. Now even though this may not effect YOU it WILL effect your co-workers and fellow ALPA members. All day, every day as i walk through the 80 gates at LAX i see MANY ALPA guys waiting for jumpseats, especially at the end of the night and early in the morning, I have talked to several that bid for schedules knowing that we are the last flight home, or the only way to get to work in the morning. Your selfishness and high and mighty, self centered, "It doesn't effect me" attitude may lead to screwing over your people and their quality of life. It also doesn't exactally help your cause of trying to make ALPA look good, "join us or we'll F*** you over"

That being said i am a pro union guy but if you screw me over, you will get the same treatment from me.

("you" being a general term, maybe not specifically YOU, but you are concerned for everyone's well being not just yourself, right? :erm: )

 

[CitationUltra]

A question to chew over:

How can ALPA support both major and regional pilot groups who frequently have opposing agendas?

Frequently have opposing agendas?

The agendas are diametrically opposed, as in 180-degrees out, oil-an-water/night-and-day. There is no way that ALPA can, ever has, or ever will be able to represent a regional pilot group with a straight face.

 

[DX Rick]

MANPADS

Aren't these the things you'll find in PCL_128's overnight bag?

Has the bleeding stopped, sweet cheeks?

 

[PCL_128]

Aren't these the things you'll find in PCL_128's overnight bag?

Even I have to admit that that was pretty funny.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Aren't these the things you'll find in PCL_128's overnight bag?

Has the bleeding stopped, sweet cheeks?

Screw the coffee...I blew my entire lunch out my nose after reading that! :laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Screw the coffee...I blew my entire lunch out my nose after reading that! :laugh:

That is because you are personality based, pop culture, flavor of the month kinda guy..... a super sized, whats in it for me, where do I get mine style...

Do you know what they really are?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Frequently have opposing agendas?

The agendas are diametrically opposed, as in 180-degrees out, oil-an-water/night-and-day. There is no way that ALPA can, ever has, or ever will be able to represent a regional pilot group with a straight face.

And yet they do.......

Now..if you think ALPA should reject someone elses career intrests for your own, then maybe you don't understand how our system of gov't works.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

That is because you are personality based, pop culture, flavor of the month kinda guy..... a super sized, whats in it for me, where do I get mine style...

Do you know what they really are?

Did you rip that off George Carlin?

 

[evilbeef54]

well I have been away from my truck (borrowed from my father in law) which is parked at my domicile for a while, I have been getting commutable trips a lot lately so I haven't really needed it. But this morning I got in early so I decided to go out and get IHOP. when I got to the truck I see that some asshat put an ALPA bumper sticker on my truck. I don't care what your opinions are everyone is entitled to have their own but there is NO F'ing excuse for messing with someone elses property. I wouldn't be as upset if it was MY personal truck, I might even leave it on, but this made me mad. I am supposed to return the truck on friday so I tried to carefully peal off the sticker but it just tore into pieces. Now I have to go buy a bottle of goo off or something. GRRRRRR!!!

 

[BoilerUP]

well I have been away from my truck (borrowed from my father in law) which is parked at my domicile for a while, I have been getting commutable trips a lot lately so I haven't really needed it. But this morning I got in early so I decided to go out and get IHOP. when I got to the truck I see that some asshat put an ALPA bumper sticker on my truck. I don't care what your opinions are everyone is entitled to have their own but there is NO F'ing excuse for messing with someone elses property. I wouldn't be as upset if it was MY personal truck, I might even leave it on, but this made me mad. I am supposed to return the truck on friday so I tried to carefully peal off the sticker but it just tore into pieces. Now I have to go buy a bottle of goo off or something. GRRRRRR!!!

That sucks...the person that did that is an asshat AND a vandal.

 

[Spicepilots]

Wrong! Being a SKYW pilot is supporting totalitarianism. No vote, no choice, no input, no nothing. Jerry speaks... you move. How fast is detrermined by Jerry. It would be more difficult more me to look at my wife if my boss treated me like this...

Yep, uncle Jerry has all of our cell phone numbers. We can't call for pushback until we get his verbal approval. Rez, you might have some valid points about the value of collective bargaining, but your rhetoric gets more rediculous by the day.

 

[buscap]

Hey Skywest guys,

In my opinion you guys messed up. While you are obviously entitled to that mistake, I feel you have really shortchanged yourselves.

The fact is every single one of you know that every single benefit and dollar you earn is at the expense of all unionized pilots. Your quality of life and pay have been set at a level just high enough to keep a union off the property.

The real shame of it is most of you are trying to get hired at major airlines, in pursuit of even higher payscales. Payscales bought and paid for by unioni pilots.

I hope at least one of you realizes you just kicked your own profession in the nuts.

Stupid move guys.

But, good luck with everything. Hopefully the ramifications for the industry will not be as bad as some think. It's just a shame you missed an opportunity to contribute to the profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yep, uncle Jerry has all of our cell phone numbers. We can't call for pushback until we get his verbal approval. Rez, you might have some valid points about the value of collective bargaining, but your rhetoric gets more rediculous by the day.

And the SKYW guys retread-ing of weak excuses as to why they didn't want ALPA is getting old....

I have consistantly asked the hard core questions and no one had addressed them....

Is there critical thought?

 

[Soverytired]

There's no such thing as a closed shop in this country. They were outlawed many years ago. Guess you guys need to do a little more research before you can have an intelligent debate. Maybe you should learn the difference between closed shop and agency/union shop first?

Technically true.

Practically speaking though, it's a distinction that is meaningless.

When joining an ALPA carrier, you may elect to be a "dues paying non-member". You can opt out of the union, but can still be assessed what the union paid to negotiate the contract you work under.

This actually seems like a reasonable compromise to me. In principle, you should have to pay your fare share for the costs of negotiating your CBA . . . but no more, if you're not interested in other aspects of union membership.

Unfortunately, there are several rather nasty caveats that will bite you in the butt if you exercise this "act of conscience" option:

1. You save no money, because your union will tell you with at straight face that 100% (or very nearly 100%) of your dues are used solely for your contract negotiations. How convenient. There are groups and lawyers that will fight this, but it's not worth the expense.

2. If your pilot group goes on strike, you're boned from both ends. Management will expect you to cross the picket line (something even an anti-ALPA pilot myself would NEVER in a million years do), and you'll probably be fired if you don't. The union will get you canned when the dust settles. I don't remember the particulars, but there was some sort of clause in the Mesa contract that allowed the union to do this.