ALPA loses at Skywest

[JoeMerchant]

PBR-

Since no SKYW pilot has the courage or ability to answer this...maybe you can....

Another attack on a fine pilot group..... Keep up the attacks..... that will get a lot of YES voters...

Why can Jerry have a labor contract for his employment but not for the pilots?

Jerry isn't represented by a union, but he has a legally binding contract.... Jerry also has more leverage than pilots because it is more difficult to replace him...... That is the single biggest difference..

If you want to affect change in that arena, then we need to address why we are so easy to replace.... It doesn't have anything to do with ALPA's code of ethics....

Also, after the SKYW pilots get thier quick upgrade then what? Goals obtained are not motivators!!

The motivation is to become a "real" airline pilot..... You know the ones that fly "real" airplanes..... You really are out of touch with reality Rez..... these kids are motivated by becoming real major pilots...... That is their motivation..... This is the curse of the "master/apprentace" system we have created for ourselves...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Another attack on a fine pilot group..... Keep up the attacks..... that will get a lot of YES voters...

Sorry Joe... I just have asked the question multiple times to the confident ALPA naysayers and no one replies... tI thought the ignoring was rude..

Jerry isn't represented by a union, but he has a legally binding contract.... Jerry also has more leverage than pilots because it is more difficult to replace him...... That is the single biggest difference..

that is management kool aid Joe... we live in America... CEO's are a dime a dozen... he has a contract to pay him out when he fails...

If you want to affect change in that arena, then we need to address why we are so easy to replace.... It doesn't have anything to do with ALPA's code of ethics....

Not talking about ethics here Joey... that is the other thread... put down the juice...

The motivation is to become a "real" airline pilot..... You know the ones that fly "real" airplanes..... You really are out of touch with reality Rez..... these kids are motivated by becoming real major pilots...... That is their motivation..... This is the curse of the "master/apprentace" system we have created for ourselves...

Sounds like more me me me to me... maybe if they don't get what they want they can sue ALPA...

Hey Joey... why not be a lawsuit consultant for pissed off ALPA pilots... you can give them the roadmap to sue.. for a me me me fee of course...

 

[JoeMerchant]

that is management kool aid Joe... we live in America... CEO's are a dime a dozen... he has a contract to pay him out when he fails...

OK, so CEO's are a "dime a dozen", and they don't have a union..... Yet they negotiate great contracts that pay large sums of money.....

Meanwhile....

Most airline pilots are members of ALPA and continue to take paycuts.......

Then you wonder why the Skywest pilots passed on ALPA's "services"....

You are beginning to answer your own question.....

It's all about leverage in negotiations..... not about ALPA..... Are you interested in getting the leverage back, or are you content to threaten and attack Skywest pilots because they don't see value in ALPA.....

 

[ATR Pirate]

For those that voted "Yes", I'm sorry. Hopefully you will get lucky and leave Skywest to greener pastures. A friend of mine just had a medical emergency and with ALPAs help, they have chartered a private jet to fly him almost half way around the world to get him to a good hospital of his choosing. I don't think SAPA would do that, do you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Greener pastures....you gotta be kidding me!!?? who do you fly for? i can't imagine it being better than skywest! skywest is even better now that we don't have to worry about that ALPA horse*%*%.....yeah maybe we'll become better like ASA...or comair...or freedom...hahaha what a joke man

 

[ratherbeflyen]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Greener pastures....you gotta be kidding me!!?? who do you fly for? i can't imagine it being better than skywest! skywest is even better now that we don't have to worry about that ALPA horse*%*%.....

Wow. Can I present you with this statement in about 20 years?

 

[Erlanger]

Wow. Can I present you with this statement in about 20 years?

For 35 years and countless ALPA drives, we've been hearing about how Uncle Jerry is going to f&#k us over and still Skywest has always either been near or at the top with pay and work rules.

 

[rightseatjocky]

I won't even give it 20 years, how about 1 or 2 when they are bitching because JA shoves it up their butts because he can do whatever he wants to now.
Wait, I read another thread just the other day about skywest bitching about something. Hmm that didn't last long.
Go ahead and praise SAPA. They are a joke, lying in bed with JA and giving that a$$ what he wants.
Skywest fires 2 a month on average, why, because they can. Do you think Alpa would let that happen? I am thinking.. no friggen way.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For 35 years and countless ALPA drives, we've been hearing about how Uncle Jerry is going to f&#k us over and still Skywest has always either been near or at the top with pay and work rules.

He has been... you just don't think he is.... do you have an Economic and Financial Analysis department to review your pay and work rules to provide critical review? ALPA does.. and it is the same dept that the APA, SWAPA, IPA and NPA uses...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK, so CEO's are a "dime a dozen", and they don't have a union..... Yet they negotiate great contracts that pay large sums of money.....

Its nioce to see you learning Joe....

Meanwhile....

Most airline pilots are members of ALPA and continue to take paycuts.......

Continue? Who is still taking pay cuts Joe? And so are the SKYW pilots.. with inflation... and 70 seats for 50...

Then you wonder why the Skywest pilots passed on ALPA's "services"....

SKYW pilots passed on ALPA for the same reason why most ALPA pilots don't like ALPA... they view the organization in terms of what is in it for them...

You are beginning to answer your own question.....

It's all about leverage in negotiations.....

If that is ture then how to the SKYW pilots negotiate?

not about ALPA..... Are you interested in getting the leverage back,

See.. all you are talkinag about is leverage for YOU. I am talking about effectiveness on the national and internional scene...

or are you content to threaten and attack Skywest pilots because they don't see value in ALPA.....

Nice try Joe... I haven't threatened any Skywest pilot. My opinons might have been strong... but there are no threats...

 

[joe_pilot]

I won't even give it 20 years, how about 1 or 2 when they are bitching because JA shoves it up their butts because he can do whatever he wants to now.
Wait, I read another thread just the other day about skywest bitching about something. Hmm that didn't last long.
Go ahead and praise SAPA. They are a joke, lying in bed with JA and giving that a$$ what he wants.
Skywest fires 2 a month on average, why, because they can. Do you think Alpa would let that happen? I am thinking.. no friggen way.

Ok, so 24 pilots in the past year, right? Name one quarter of them. PM me if you like. Name 6 pilots that have been fired in the past 12 months without cause. You can’t because IT JUST DIDN’T HAPPEN!!!

I voted "yes" for a number of reasons that I pointed out in another post. It included wrongful termination, yes. But that has been a very rare event here. I am so sick and tired of all of the claims made by SOME ALPA supporters. You guys are selling it like snake oil.

I voted "yes" for ALPA on its merits, but there are pros AND cons. It took a lot of effort to get past the spin and get to the real issues to do a genuine analysis to make a decision. I fear it was fear mongering and overblown anecdotal accounts like yours that turned most of the 65% off to ALPA.

Those of you who were rational and discussed pros and cons, thank you so much for your efforts. We certainly owe you a debt of gratitude.

The rest of you loud-mouthed SOB's, thanks for convincing the 65%. You might want to try a different tactic next time.

Fly Safe.

-JP

PS For the record, the company lackeys did their share of BS Spin too.

 

[PositionandHold]

I don't think it had anything at all to do with "loud mouthed" ALPA supporters turning them off. I think it just had to do with 65% being perfectly content with the status quo. 65%.. I mean, wow. Management won by a landslide.

 

[BE90flyer]

I think you mean to say that pilots won by a landslide.

 

[PCL_128]

I think you mean to say that pilots won by a landslide.

No, he had it right the first time. Management was the only winner here. You just don't realize it yet.

 

[joe_pilot]

I don't think it had anything at all to do with "loud mouthed" ALPA supporters turning them off. I think it just had to do with 65% being perfectly content with the status quo. 65%.. I mean, wow. Management won by a landslide.

I disagree. Many of the "no" votes I talked to just couldn't stand the rhetoric. Couple that with things being pretty good here and 2% less pay and they chose "no".

I persuaded a few to a "yes", but only after I convinced them to stop listening to the spin from both sides and do a real cost-benefit analysis of having ALPA represent them.

Look, it took a lot of effort for me to get past all of the "loud mouths" on both sides. But then again, I was a season ticket holder at Veteran's stadium for years - I'm used to it. A lot of people just got fed up and shut-down. That's my point.

-JP

 

[Gandalf]

All of the back and forth crap about 2% this, and we have it pretty good is totally missing the point. No wonder 65% voted no. The real issue is missing in all of this fluff.

Not to beat a dead horse but...

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT SAPA SAYS, WHO THEY "ELECT", HOW MANY TIMES THEY TALK TO JERRY, WHAT FUZZY GOOD FEELINGS THEY TALK ABOUT...

THEY HAVE NO POWER, NO STANDING TO NEGOIATE ANYTHING. MANAGEMENT CAN DO ANYTHING WITH OUR WORK RULES, FLEET PLANS, INTEGRATION(SCREWING OF) WITH ASA, PAY RULES, VACATION RULES, AND ON AND ON.

And this is the part that all of you working at Sh$$thole places like Mesa say, well you guys at SKYW have it pretty good, your pay is ok, your work rules are ok. Why are you complaining, be happy with what you have.....

That is not the point....Yes I am happy here, the reason I chose SKYW is because of the above mentioned things...

BUT....Maybe, just maybe I see some things that could be a little better. Maybe, just maybe, I really am a selfish pilot and I have something that I want for myself out of this job...That I am not currently getting....

ITS NOT THAT SAPA DOESN'T TRY.....ITS THAT SAPA IS POWERLESS!

SAPA:We want more than a 1% raise, a commuter policy, better pay protection, etc. etc....

SGU: No

SAPA: But, please.

SGU: No

SAPA: But, Pretty Please...

SGU: No

SAPA: But...

SGU: No.

SAPA: ok.

To all of those who voted no or chose not to vote -
I DON"T WANT TO HEAR ANY WHINING ABOUT...... pay issues, fleet issues, integration issues, quality of life issues, schedule problems, commuting issues, vacation issues, reserve issues, cancellation pay, Appendix D issues, any issue that makes this job what it is. ANY issue that ANYONE raises on either the SKYW or SAPA forums - DON"T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT - in fact lets just take down those boards so you all can't complain.

With this vote, we all, me included has lost the right to complain. This is the system we have. If you don't like it get out. Obviously we won't change it.

Either we as lowly employees should shut the F-up and let the company do what it needs to do to make JA and the board money - cuz' remember, no matter how many fuzzies we get from them - It is a business.

In that case, we should NEVER b!tch, complain, moan, try to guess and second guess what they are doing, NEVER get involved in changing things - no matter what the cost or inconvience to us as employees. Because to do so would interfere with the goal of running a business to make a profit.

or....

If we want to have the right to control ANY part of our destiny as employees of Skywest, then it our duty to get involved and partipate.

The problem with SAPA is as much as we "partipate" in the process it does us no good. You as a dedicated, informed employee can cast your vote on a pay proposal but if SGU doesn't want to abide by it, "they" won't. And there is absolutely no provisions for us as employees to appeal that process.

We are along for the ride. "They" will run the company in the manner best to make money for the board. Plain and Simple. Black and White. Cut and Dry. Nothing personal, just business. Any issues you or I care about do not matter - Everything that has been discussed ad nauseum on this board doesn't matter to them.

Just - How are those things affecting the bottom line?

So, my point is - next time you are mad or disappointed that the company is doing something to you that you don't like or agree with, keep those thoughts to yourself and be glad you have a job.

If you want the right to change things or to voice your displeasure at the company for; PBS, the pairings, your 3 hour sits in ORD, etc, etc, etc...
Then we have to figure out a way to HAVE a voice.


So, clock in, fly safe, go home.

If you are going to spend time and energy complaining about things to other pilots either while you are flying or on the message boards then answer this..

HOW ARE WE GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING HERE? How are we going to IMPROVE "pay issues, quality of life issues, schedule problems, commuting issues, vacation issues, reserve issues, cancellation pay etc, etc...?"

HOW??????????????

Oh yeah, lets hold another SAPA election.

What now guys? All I hear, is whew not ALPA. OK. Great. But, everyone agrees that SAPA is a joke. Ok. Great. What now?

An in-house union drive failed. ALPA drives failed. Do you think there is a reason that the Teamsters or anyone else hasn't tried? Hmmmm...

Even with the Teamsters or ANY of available pilot unions out there - they have some of the same problems of ALPA. They ALL represent major airlines.

So, if any of you are willing to turn off Halo 3, get off the couch and start Regional Airline Pilots Assoc. and get nationwide partipation, go for it.

However, RALPA does not exist. So, again - do we really want to deal with SAPA and the status quo?

JA, BH, and CC are NOT IMMORTAL. Sorry to dissapoint. At some point in this companies history, they WILL NOT BE RUNNING THINGS. It is ridiculous to say just because we have had it good now, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY.

HAVE ANY OF YOU LOOKED AT THE HISTORY OF THIS INDUSTRY? NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING stays the same, change happens. And when it does, believe me it will - Are we seriously going to benefit from the SAPA puppets leading us around.

Forward thinking people!

 

[SkyNation]

joe_pilot has the most logical and true take on this whole thing.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR-

Since no SKYW pilot has the courage or ability to answer this...maybe you can....

Why can Jerry have a labor contract for his employment but not for the pilots?

Also, after the SKYW pilots get thier quick upgrade then what? Goals obtained are not motivators!!

Rez,
Jerry and the top tier have contracts because they are saavy and smart, they know that a contract is the best way to insure they get their agreed upon compensation. This is the very same reason they do not want the SKYW pilot to have a contract, this allows them to remain "flexible, nimble and able to adapt to rapidly changing market forces". The only reason I can see for this flexibility is to be able to things like furlough out of seniority, close domiciles, discipline without recourse(including termination, see DD for exception), and the ability to unilaterally impose whatever they want.SKYW sells the quick upgrade as the lifestyle enhancment that everyone wants, mixed with kool-aid it makes for a formidable drug, it is the ice of the aviation industry, the only problem is it leaves at least 50% of the pilot group standing when the music stops. And stop it will $100.00 a barrel oil is gonna slow things right down, UAl is talking about parking up to 100 planes, if the industry doesn't increase fares they all will go back into BK. I am gonna love it when the sreamin' upgrade pace slows if not evens stops and all the stupid kool-aid drinkers are left standing and their worst nightmare starts, stuck in the right seat with $hitty work rules, $hittier pay and a broken kool-aid machine. I agree "goals obtained are not motivators", remember these are people who wear their golf spikes while they climb up and over their fellow pilots. i can safely say if the f/o who sits next to me turns out to be one of the 66%ers, he better be on his game, because I will be watching very critically and would love to make his/her life a little more interesting with a trip to SLC for a refresher course.
PBR

 

[capt. megadeth]

Another attack on a fine pilot group..... Keep up the attacks..... that will get a lot of YES voters...

I see....speaking the truth now amounts to an "attack". LOL!

 

[capt. megadeth]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Greener pastures....you gotta be kidding me!!?? who do you fly for? i can't imagine it being better than skywest! skywest is even better now that we don't have to worry about that ALPA horse*%*%.....yeah maybe we'll become better like ASA...or comair...or freedom...hahaha what a joke man

Don't worry son, after you get a little more than 1200 TT, you might see the light. :laugh:

If Skywest is your idea of the best, you have some realllllly loooooow expectations.

 

[capt. megadeth]

joe_pilot has the most logical and true take on this whole thing.

Nope, Gandalf does. I agree and think everything he says....I just can't get it out tactfully.