ALPA/401k revisited

[PCL_128]

I firmly disagree!! Why should he get paid what a senior captain would get paid on the line while flying all around the country or the world, being away from home weekends, most holidays, the kids soccer game etc, all the while his feet are firmly planted on the ground, home nearly every night, weekends off, holidays off etc etc!

You can't possibly be serious. The President gets about 20 day off per year. He's never home, and he barely sees his family. His entire life is nothing but work.

 

[spinproof]

His entire life is nothing but work.

:laugh: ...... which begs the question, on what?

What has happened to you since your forced vacation? You need a little sun and roughage. Also a high colonic is something you should consider on a regular basis.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

:laugh: ...... which begs the question, on what?
.

I think the fact that you don't know and don't understand is the real issue....


What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?


Yes, their needs to be fundamental changes at ALPA. But expecting any union officer to be effective in this current environment of oil crises, pro company gov't and evolving industry is quite amazing.

Now, lets qualify expectations of effectiveness....

How do you measure it? Your own personal condition? Is that what this is about? If not, then tell us...

In other words, wanting to mob the local community center because conditions in your 'Hood stink is misguided....

 

[spinproof]

I think the fact that you don't know and don't understand is the real issue....


What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?


Yes, their needs to be fundamental changes at ALPA. But expecting any union officer to be effective in this current environment of oil crises, pro company gov't and evolving industry is quite amazing.

Now, lets qualify expectations of effectiveness....

How do you measure it? Your own personal condition? Is that what this is about? If not, then tell us...

In other words, wanting to mob the local community center because conditions in your 'Hood stink is misguided....

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

In typical bureaucratic fashion they seem to be more concerned about maintaining a status quo than "feeling anyone's pain"!

How you can continue to defend a room full of lawyers , whose latest action is to get the BOD to continue to fund them in the manner in which they have become accustomed, while the membership accepts concessionary contracts and furloughs, is disgraceful!

Your lectures on involvement ring hollow in light of years of being "shaken down" by the process! Now when these same bureaucrats see their "cushy" jobs being threatened, their first reaction is to protect themselves not those they supposedly serve.

 

[WalterSobchak]

What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?

Maybe it is my non-pilot, non-union-represented mindset talking here, but...

Are you're saying that it is too much to expect representation from your paid representative body?

Listen, I know you can't expect ALPA National to kiss each individual arse of it's membership...but even the guy who just pays his 1.95% and gives nothing more seems to deserve at least a little bit more out of his representative body than it seems many of the ALPA membership are getting. You have to admit that the complete lack of unification of a group that calls itself a union is really setting back ALPA's ability to be effective and relevant.

As you know, you and I agree that ALPA Safety and the ALPA PAC do great work in promoting and putting the spotlight on issues that impact pilots and the industry as a whole. However, right or wrong, when the average person thinks of their union...they will, by nature, think of what their union dues are doing to help their job security and bottom line. When there has been little to no progression in either of these catagories (and, in many cases, a backslide)...and the representative body starts requesting more money without taking any kind of similar concessions...you can see where the membership might start to get a little fed up with the "Status Quo" that Prater, et al. seem so hell bent on maintaining. I'm just not sure how anyone can defend that...

 

[DoinTime]

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

You proclaim to know a lot about how ALPA works. Have you garnered this knowledge from personal work experience with the staff at ALPA or is it just your own conspiracy?


There is a lot of talk on here about how ALPA does not represent their pilots but there is little evidence to back up this claim. Perhaps this debate could take a turn towards the intelligent and give us an opportunity to hash out some real issues.*****

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

This may or may not be true. However, your post is just rhetoric and opinion on your part. HOW is ALPA overstaffed and underperforming..

What performance standards has ALPA not met? Sure it maybe be obvious... and if so, then you should be able to quantify it...

In typical bureaucratic fashion they seem to be more concerned about maintaining a status quo than "feeling anyone's pain"!

Despite the layoffs at ALPA?

How you can continue to defend a room full of lawyers , whose latest action is to get the BOD to continue to fund them in the manner in which they have become accustomed, while the membership accepts concessionary contracts and furloughs, is disgraceful!

It seems to me that the latest finding tactic is via vote.

What does an ALPA member do when s/he feels passionate about an issue, yet 95% of the members don't?

Your lectures on involvement ring hollow in light of years of being "shaken down" by the process! Now when these same bureaucrats see their "cushy" jobs being threatened, their first reaction is to protect themselves not those they supposedly serve.

So what is the solution? More non particaption? You are dissatified but you have no solution to your paradox, which is As long as I am unhappy I will continue to do nothing...

When do you take action and define your union in terms of the membership?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe it is my non-pilot, non-union-represented mindset talking here, but...

Probably....

Are you're saying that it is too much to expect representation from your paid representative body?

Define expectations...

For a democratic group that doesn't communicate and then complains that their representatives don't listen and address the needs of the membership is quite illogical...

Listen, I know you can't expect ALPA National to kiss each individual arse of it's membership...but even the guy who just pays his 1.95% and gives nothing more seems to deserve at least a little bit more out of his representative body than it seems many of the ALPA membership are getting. You have to admit that the complete lack of unification of a group that calls itself a union is really setting back ALPA's ability to be effective and relevant.

5% LEC participation
35% LEC voter participation
37% Age 60 survey member participation
16% ALPA-PAC participation


If you want to talk about lack of unification... why not start right here. These are the things that each unsatisfied member can control RIGHT NOW.

If immediate change is desired, why not start with the one thing that members have immediate and unconditional control over... themselves...

Instead of complaining about representatives they can only influence, why not control what they can.


Then.. they must understand democracy... and its slow, aggravating and less than desired results... but also keep in mind... is there a better way?

But no... it is easier to treat ALPA and its dues as a strip mall with 100% guarantees and the customer is always right mantra instead of a civil democracy.

It is easier to whine and complain to a small group of four or five in the crew room then draft a resolution, attend an LEC meeting, effectively and intelligently communicate and convince fellow pilots that your idea has merit and they should vote yes...

As you know, you and I agree that ALPA Safety and the ALPA PAC do great work in promoting and putting the spotlight on issues that impact pilots and the industry as a whole. However, right or wrong, when the average person thinks of their union...they will, by nature, think of what their union dues are doing to help their job security and bottom line. When there has been little to no progression in either of these catagories (and, in many cases, a backslide)...and the representative body starts requesting more money without taking any kind of similar concessions...you can see where the membership might start to get a little fed up with the "Status Quo" that Prater, et al. seem so hell bent on maintaining. I'm just not sure how anyone can defend that...

I agree completely... that is why I am against the increased in 401k dues. and your quote above is exactly why...

But justify why MINIORITY participation by the membership is a good thing? It is quite the double standard... the membership simply says... "we want you to do what we want, but we are not going to tell what we want" And we is really me. Because each member has their own idea about what should be done. 56,000 pilots who won't communicate yet expect to be happy.


Only until they are engaged can they effectively critique and work to make positive change...

Disengaged and uninformed people make poor reformers...

 

[WalterSobchak]

This may or may not be true. However, your post is just rhetoric and opinion on your part.

...which is not too far off from what you post here. Some truth and a whole bunch of regurgitated rhetoric.

For a democratic group that doesn't communicate and then complains that their representatives don't listen and address the needs of the membership is quite illogical...

But justify why MINIORITY participation by the membership is a good thing? It is quite the double standard... the membership simply says... "we want you to do what we want, but we are not going to tell what we want" And we is really me. Because each member has their own idea about what should be done. 56,000 pilots who won't communicate yet expect to be happy.


Only until they are engaged can they effectively critique and work to make positive change...

Disengaged and uninformed people make poor reformers...

But, Rez...what has ALPA (National and Local) done to engage these people who are disengaged?

Should the membership care enough to engage themselves? Probably. But, when the membership has become jaded by certain actions of National, whose responsibility is it to re-engage the membership? From the perspective of the guy on the outside looking in...it seems that there is a complete disconnect on both sides and someone has to step up to repair the disconnect. It would seem that would fall on the shoulders of the "larger entity" that is supposed to be there to serve the membership...especially if you are asking for more financial support from those represented.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...which is not too far off from what you post here. Some truth and a whole bunch of regurgitated rhetoric.

The participation numbers are rhetoric? Seem like facts...

But, Rez...what has ALPA (National and Local) done to engage these people who are disengaged?

Are you serious? This is democracy... not consumerism....

The ability for each individual to effect change is there.... yes is it hard work.. but should it be easy? And if so.. who says....

Should the membership care enough to engage themselves? Probably.

Stop right there. End of discussion... but no... you gotta keep going...


That is like saying.. yeah I am in debt and I should stop...but......

But, when the membership has become jaded by certain actions of National, whose responsibility is it to re-engage the membership?

The membership! Who else is going to do it!

That is like saying.. if I can't find job and no one will engage me... who responsibility is it?

You are unbelievable!

To sit there and defend apathy, coddle victimization and reject democracy... are you an American? TO believe that some else is responsible for your situation... unreal!

From the perspective of the guy on the outside looking in...it seems that there is a complete disconnect on both sides and someone has to step up to repair the disconnect. It would seem that would fall on the shoulders of the "larger entity" that is supposed to be there to serve the membership...especially if you are asking for more financial support from those represented.

I'll say it again.... the membership does not participate. How is the leadership suppose to serve a membership that does not engage! If you want to play which came first..chicken or the egg, go right ahead.. I am not going to wait till my career is over to say... "well shat.. maybe I should've done something instead of blaming others for my unhappiness"

So a guy in the midst of the masses looks around at the apathy, complaining and whining.. and says.. I'll volunteer to make our group better...

And as soon as he steps forward from the masses, willing to make efforts to make the masses better off than they are.... he becomes the reason for the masses suffering....

Note that the volunteer was elected! The masses hated DW.. they had to have change... and now they hate JP... maybe there is a problem with the membership...

How embarrassing you people are...

 

[WalterSobchak]

You are unbelievable!

To sit there and defend apathy, coddle victimization and reject democracy... are you an American? TO believe that some else is responsible for your situation... unreal!

I'm pretty sure that is the second time you've questioned my citizenship and patriotism on this message board. You're a real piece of work, you know that? So, because I believe that you should get what you pay for, that makes me un-American? Sounds and smells like capitalism to me...which is synonamous with American. I love this country, will defend it to my death if I must...and for you, someone who doesn't know a farking thing about who I am, to question whether or not I am an American based solely on something I posted on a message board...I don't take too kindly to that at all. So, you sir, can kiss my fat, white, AMERICAN ass.

Face it, your talk of ALPA being this glorious utopian democracy amounts to little more than a pipe dream. You tell these pilots to "get involved in their careers"...yet, because of some serious past failures on the part of the contract negotiating arm of ALPA (weak local leadership or not, it's still ALPA), many pilots are working more than ever just to make ends meet. When the hell do you expect them to "participate in their careers"?...during their already little off time? THIS IS WHY THEY ARE PAYING UNION DUES...so that they have someone to represent them...so they don't have to worry about doing it themselves. Sure, those who have the time and the means to volunteer, should. However, it should not be an expectation.

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they ARE vocal about something?

I've said it a million times, I speak for no one but myself. I am not "anti-union", per se. But I observe, I educate myself, and I have enough pilot friends...unionized and not...to know that there is a serious distrust of ALPA National right now. I know that a large percentage of ALPA represented line pilots deserve a helluva lot more than they are getting out of their representative body. Until ALPA can regain the trust of the line pilot...ALPA will continue to be a parody of itself.

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a UNION and UNIFY it's membership with a National Senority List, they may as well quit calling themselves a union and just roll with something more along the lines of The Loose Association of Air Line Pilots Whom We Will Allow To Cut Each Other's Throats When The Going Get's Tough, So Long As The Lavish Lifestyles of Our National Leadership Is Not Disrupted.

How embarrassing you people are...

I won't publicly question your loyalty to this country...but I will point this out:

You are quite possibly a much bigger embarrassment. I believe that one could argue that...with your tired, non-stop chest thumping, name calling, and reguritated rhetoric...you, PCL, and your ilk have likely driven more pilots away from ALPA than you've ever brought in.

 

[DoinTime]

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they*****ARE*****vocal about something?

You did completely misunderstand that issue. The decision to abandon*****resistance*****to age 65 was democratically agreed on by your elected leadership.*****


Popular opinion (albeit of a frighteningly small percentage of ALPA members that bothered to participate in the polling) was to continue resistance against age 65. Similarly, George W. Bush won the 2000 presidential election without winning the popular vote. Due to the way the systems work popular opinion does not always mean everything (or in some cases, anything).*****


Does that mean that you should act like a child and cease to support both ALPA and the United States? Of course not.

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a*****UNION*****and*****UNIFY*****it's membership with a*****National Senority List

If ALPA tried to create a national*****seniority*****list the Association would surely splinter into 40*****independent*****unions. Just look at what happened at US Air over a*****seniority*****integration. As much as I support a national seniority list it will never happen because pilots (in general) are way to self centered and greedy to ever give what it would take to make it happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm pretty sure that is the second time you've questioned my citizenship and patriotism on this message board. You're a real piece of work, you know that? So, because I believe that you should get what you pay for, that makes me un-American? Sounds and smells like capitalism to me...which is synonamous with American. I love this country, will defend it to my death if I must...and for you, someone who doesn't know a farking thing about who I am, to question whether or not I am an American based solely on something I posted on a message board...I don't take too kindly to that at all. So, you sir, can kiss my fat, white, AMERICAN ass.

You better learn quick... capitalism is not American. Capitalism is not democracy.

Go to China. Capitalism is alive and well...

You are UNAMERICAN!

You reject democracy via unionism... The right to be self represented. To hold elections and choose your leadership... to assemble and meet. to discuss and vote on issues...to find collective direction... everything the Founding Fathers fought for...

You reject all of this to wear the burka for Jerry...

Face it, your talk of ALPA being this glorious utopian democracy amounts to little more than a pipe dream. You tell these pilots to "get involved in their careers"...yet, because of some serious past failures on the part of the contract negotiating arm of ALPA (weak local leadership or not, it's still ALPA), many pilots are working more than ever just to make ends meet. When the hell do you expect them to "participate in their careers"?...during their already little off time? THIS IS WHY THEY ARE PAYING UNION DUES...so that they have someone to represent them...so they don't have to worry about doing it themselves. Sure, those who have the time and the means to volunteer, should. However, it should not be an expectation.

There is nothing glorious about ALPA. There are real problems... but do you have a better idea?

Your quote above.. replace ALPA with USA and dues with taxes....


Not sure where you got your civic history. I just watched the John Adams series on HBO.. I suggest you do to... Also read on T. Jefferson.

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they ARE vocal about something?

Only 37% of the members bothered to participate in the survey. ALPAAD got organized and used democracy to win their position.

The LEC meeting participation on age 60 was weak and resolutions amounted to little effort...

Your information on the Age 60/65 issue is from where? FI? Crewrooms? How do you know about age 65?

I've said it a million times, I speak for no one but myself. I am not "anti-union", per se. But I observe, I educate myself, and I have enough pilot friends...unionized and not...to know that there is a serious distrust of ALPA National right now. I know that a large percentage of ALPA represented line pilots deserve a helluva lot more than they are getting out of their representative body. Until ALPA can regain the trust of the line pilot...ALPA will continue to be a parody of itself.

All of those ALPA national officers were ELECTED!!!

If you don't like your leadership remove them and elect new ones! If you don't like Jerry what do you do? Suck it up or quit... at least with ALPA we can "hire and fire"....

As subjects of capitalism you do not have liberty nor freedom... within your company... all you can do is quit and work for another company that rejects democracy.

Capitalism and corporations are totalitarian!

Unions, homeowners associations, etc.. are democracies...

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a UNION and UNIFY it's membership with a National Senority List, they may as well quit calling themselves a union and just roll with something more along the lines of The Loose Association of Air Line Pilots Whom We Will Allow To Cut Each Other's Throats When The Going Get's Tough, So Long As The Lavish Lifestyles of Our National Leadership Is Not Disrupted.

Let me get this straight... you love capitalism.. the ability to out bid one another and pull yourself up from your bootstraps... you like that you can move around and take your skills to a better job....

yet you chide ALPA for not stopping what you gushingly adore....

You love free market capitalism but you chide ALPA for not being successful in creating artificial market barriers that limit capitalism....

Not having a NSL allows pilots to move about and find better jobs. If we had a NSL the regional pilots would be stuck at the regionals until their number came up to go to the majors!

I won't publicly question your loyalty to this country...but I will point this out:

You can't. I vote in EVERY election that I am eligible. The girls at the absentee voting office know me....

I vote in every ALPA election.. every survey... every HOA election,

I take my responsibilities as a citizen seriously... and put those responsibilities above consumerism...

You are quite possibly a much bigger embarrassment. I believe that one could argue that...with your tired, non-stop chest thumping, name calling, and reguritated rhetoric...you, PCL, and your ilk have likely driven more pilots away from ALPA than you've ever brought in.

That fact that someone would reject democracy and their own career representation because of a moniker message board is disturbing...

"I am not going to vote in the next LEC election cause Rez and PCL are idiots".....

How UNAMERICAN!

 

[WalterSobchak]

I got about halfway through typing up a big long reply...and deleted it. You are not even worth it.

But, since you decided to indirectly invoke the representative body of the United States of America...as well as the great John Adams...I leave you with this:

In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - John Adams

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I got about halfway through typing up a big long reply...and deleted it. You are not even worth it.

That is too bad.... I wish you would... a good debate allows one to reflect and the chance to understand different viewpoints...

Our Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and the rest of our Constitution allow us certain rights under gov't but not in every organization such as clubs, societies and employment...

But that is the point... democracy is the best we've got and it has found its way into unions, civic leagues and HOA's for example... It's a methodology for people to actively participate to influence the direction of their lives.

Why they choose not to is frustrating.

Democracy should be protected and promoted whenever possible.

It is the American Way.

Perhaps you, Walter, can explain the apathy in democracy? In union and gov't elections... the participation rate so low?

But, since you decided to indirectly invoke the representative body of the United States of America...as well as the great John Adams...I leave you with this:In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - John Adams

Quotes are nice, but the meaning of the quote can be subjective or viewed to serve the readers purpose.. not necessarily the authors.

So what does that mean?


Here is another....

Voting is one of the few things where boycotting in protest clearly makes the problem worse rather than better.

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.
-Plato

Your silence gives consent. -Plato

... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election.

The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith.

The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience.

In politics, an organized minority is a political majority.

The citizen can bring our political and governmental institutions back to life, make them responsive and accountable, and keep them honest. No one else can.

We preach the virtues of democracy abroad. We must practice its duties here at home. Voting is the first duty of democracy.

Citizenship is what makes a republic -- monarchies can get along without it.

To safeguard democracy the people must have a keen sense of independence, self-respect, and their oneness.

The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within.

In true democracy every man and women is taught to think for himself or herself.

The spirit of democracy cannot be established in the midst of terrorism, whether governmental or popular.

The most effective way to restrict democracy is to transfer decision-making from the public arena to unaccountable institutions: kings and princes, priestly castes, military juntas, party dictatorships, or modern corporations.

There are no magic answers, no miraculous methods to overcome the problems we face, just the familiar ones: honest search for understanding, education, organization, action that raises the cost of state violence for its perpetrators or that lays the basis for institutional change -- and the kind of commitment that will persist despite the temptations of disillusionment, despite many failures and only limited successes, inspired by the hope of a brighter future."

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take the power from them, but to inform them by education.


Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government.

I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.

[C]reative ability and personal responsibility are strongest when the mind is free from supernatural belief and operates in an atmosphere of freedom and democracy.

Individual commitment to a group effort -- that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

That is too bad.... I wish you would... a good debate allows one to reflect and the chance to understand different viewpoints...

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate. It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

I take it you're an ALPA rep. I say this because most ALPA reps evoke the same arguments you do. They must teach you guys what to say in rep school. What's sad is all of your crap about democracy, and the members getting involved, blah, blah, blah, all it is is an excuse for the fact that you and the other reps can't get the meal on the table. Walter made that excellent point, and all you could do was hurl more insults at him (attacking his patriotism?!!!!). Well it's true what he said. The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed. You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right? After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

How embarrassing you people are...

As I was saying. You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, pal. Your (and your buddy PCL too) constant ranting about what a great organization ALPA would be if it weren't for the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership is quite embarrassing to everyone. Why don't you give it a rest before you destroy any chance ALPA may have of gaining new members (or even keeping the ones we have). Honestly, I'm embarrassed to even be associated with you.

 

[sweptback]

The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed. You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right? After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

Commanders don't take direction from their troops. Reps take direction from their constituents. Your analogy is flawed.

Basically what you're saying is, I want somebody to represent me because I don't want to do it myself. (For the record, I don't have a problem with that.) But, I want my rep to make all the right decisions even though I'm not going to tell him/her what I want them to do. If he does something I don't like, then I can blame him because after all, he's my rep and should do what I say.

See what I mean?

 

[DoinTime]

It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

What part of aviation isn't men trying to prove who's pecker is bigger? Really? Take a look at the past 100 years of aviation. The only reason humans are capable of powered flight is because its just a big cockswinging contest out there.

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate.

Your debating skills leave plenty to be desired as well. Everything you present is either personal opinion or generalized perspective. Neither of which are rooted in facts or history. I presume the explanation for your lack of hard facts is because you have never taken on the burden of doing the work of the Association yourself.

Factually, Rez presents solid facts that are planted in reality and his knowledge is gained through his personal time, sweet, and dedication to the Association. He may not be the most delicate at his presentation of the facts and that clearly binds your panties up. Such is life.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First of all... to debate one should address all that is said... take this post of yours for example... you pick and choose what of my post to reply to... that is not debating... that is cherry picking for your own benefit...

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate. It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

not sure what sexual organs have to do with it...

I take it you're an ALPA rep. I say this because most ALPA reps evoke the same arguments you do. They must teach you guys what to say in rep school.

Actually this is one of ALPA's problems.... the rep school needs to be better...

What's sad is all of your crap about democracy, and the members getting involved, blah, blah, blah, all it is is an excuse for the fact that you and the other reps can't get the meal on the table.

Fine. We can't deliver... so why do we keep getting elected? Why doesn't someone who can do the job get elected?

Walter made that excellent point, and all you could do was hurl more insults at him (attacking his patriotism?!!!!).

Is it American to shun voting? To reject self government?

Well it's true what he said. The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed.

Here is the point.. the members Haven't elected them. Or only 33% have.

Can you defend minority participation?

When I was a rep, I asked the membership what they want. I actively sought out their wishes. I GOT ZERO reply.

You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right?

Define failures or successes. I had a 100% resolution pass rate at MEC meetings. I started committees, saved a couple of jobs/carrers, and created a program so that sick pilots could care for their families..

If you want to judge ALPA reps because they did not stop global market forces, put handfuls of cash in pilots pockets and had rose petal path laid down for them to walk on then.. yes.. we've failed...

Define your expectations... what do you want from ALPA reps... and then justify your expectations...

After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

The MIL is not a democracy nor does it operate one.

As I was saying. You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, pal. Your (and your buddy PCL too) constant ranting about what a great organization ALPA would be if it weren't for the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership is quite embarrassing to everyone.

Well apathy hasn't worked for 77 years... got any good ideas?

Why don't you give it a rest before you destroy any chance ALPA may have of gaining new members (or even keeping the ones we have). Honestly, I'm embarrassed to even be associated with you.

Just participate. The fact that you wouldn't because of a moniker postings on a message board is embarrassing...

 

[XPOO]

#1. George W. Bush was the first elected president in over 40 years to garner over 50% of the actual votes casted in the 2004 elections.

#2. I already know my pecker is bigger.