ALPA/401k revisited

[WalterSobchak]

You are unbelievable!

To sit there and defend apathy, coddle victimization and reject democracy... are you an American? TO believe that some else is responsible for your situation... unreal!

I'm pretty sure that is the second time you've questioned my citizenship and patriotism on this message board. You're a real piece of work, you know that? So, because I believe that you should get what you pay for, that makes me un-American? Sounds and smells like capitalism to me...which is synonamous with American. I love this country, will defend it to my death if I must...and for you, someone who doesn't know a farking thing about who I am, to question whether or not I am an American based solely on something I posted on a message board...I don't take too kindly to that at all. So, you sir, can kiss my fat, white, AMERICAN ass.

Face it, your talk of ALPA being this glorious utopian democracy amounts to little more than a pipe dream. You tell these pilots to "get involved in their careers"...yet, because of some serious past failures on the part of the contract negotiating arm of ALPA (weak local leadership or not, it's still ALPA), many pilots are working more than ever just to make ends meet. When the hell do you expect them to "participate in their careers"?...during their already little off time? THIS IS WHY THEY ARE PAYING UNION DUES...so that they have someone to represent them...so they don't have to worry about doing it themselves. Sure, those who have the time and the means to volunteer, should. However, it should not be an expectation.

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they ARE vocal about something?

I've said it a million times, I speak for no one but myself. I am not "anti-union", per se. But I observe, I educate myself, and I have enough pilot friends...unionized and not...to know that there is a serious distrust of ALPA National right now. I know that a large percentage of ALPA represented line pilots deserve a helluva lot more than they are getting out of their representative body. Until ALPA can regain the trust of the line pilot...ALPA will continue to be a parody of itself.

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a UNION and UNIFY it's membership with a National Senority List, they may as well quit calling themselves a union and just roll with something more along the lines of The Loose Association of Air Line Pilots Whom We Will Allow To Cut Each Other's Throats When The Going Get's Tough, So Long As The Lavish Lifestyles of Our National Leadership Is Not Disrupted.

How embarrassing you people are...

I won't publicly question your loyalty to this country...but I will point this out:

You are quite possibly a much bigger embarrassment. I believe that one could argue that...with your tired, non-stop chest thumping, name calling, and reguritated rhetoric...you, PCL, and your ilk have likely driven more pilots away from ALPA than you've ever brought in.

 

[DoinTime]

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they*****ARE*****vocal about something?

You did completely misunderstand that issue. The decision to abandon*****resistance*****to age 65 was democratically agreed on by your elected leadership.*****


Popular opinion (albeit of a frighteningly small percentage of ALPA members that bothered to participate in the polling) was to continue resistance against age 65. Similarly, George W. Bush won the 2000 presidential election without winning the popular vote. Due to the way the systems work popular opinion does not always mean everything (or in some cases, anything).*****


Does that mean that you should act like a child and cease to support both ALPA and the United States? Of course not.

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a*****UNION*****and*****UNIFY*****it's membership with a*****National Senority List

If ALPA tried to create a national*****seniority*****list the Association would surely splinter into 40*****independent*****unions. Just look at what happened at US Air over a*****seniority*****integration. As much as I support a national seniority list it will never happen because pilots (in general) are way to self centered and greedy to ever give what it would take to make it happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm pretty sure that is the second time you've questioned my citizenship and patriotism on this message board. You're a real piece of work, you know that? So, because I believe that you should get what you pay for, that makes me un-American? Sounds and smells like capitalism to me...which is synonamous with American. I love this country, will defend it to my death if I must...and for you, someone who doesn't know a farking thing about who I am, to question whether or not I am an American based solely on something I posted on a message board...I don't take too kindly to that at all. So, you sir, can kiss my fat, white, AMERICAN ass.

You better learn quick... capitalism is not American. Capitalism is not democracy.

Go to China. Capitalism is alive and well...

You are UNAMERICAN!

You reject democracy via unionism... The right to be self represented. To hold elections and choose your leadership... to assemble and meet. to discuss and vote on issues...to find collective direction... everything the Founding Fathers fought for...

You reject all of this to wear the burka for Jerry...

Face it, your talk of ALPA being this glorious utopian democracy amounts to little more than a pipe dream. You tell these pilots to "get involved in their careers"...yet, because of some serious past failures on the part of the contract negotiating arm of ALPA (weak local leadership or not, it's still ALPA), many pilots are working more than ever just to make ends meet. When the hell do you expect them to "participate in their careers"?...during their already little off time? THIS IS WHY THEY ARE PAYING UNION DUES...so that they have someone to represent them...so they don't have to worry about doing it themselves. Sure, those who have the time and the means to volunteer, should. However, it should not be an expectation.

There is nothing glorious about ALPA. There are real problems... but do you have a better idea?

Your quote above.. replace ALPA with USA and dues with taxes....


Not sure where you got your civic history. I just watched the John Adams series on HBO.. I suggest you do to... Also read on T. Jefferson.

Let's take a look at those ALPA National salaries again. Now, it would seem to me that those people are PAID to represent the membership. When they bypass the membership...like they appeared to have done with Age 65, as I understand it (and I readily admit, I may have completely misunderstood that situation)...what would you venture to guess the membership is going to think about how their needs are being addressed when they ARE vocal about something?

Only 37% of the members bothered to participate in the survey. ALPAAD got organized and used democracy to win their position.

The LEC meeting participation on age 60 was weak and resolutions amounted to little effort...

Your information on the Age 60/65 issue is from where? FI? Crewrooms? How do you know about age 65?

I've said it a million times, I speak for no one but myself. I am not "anti-union", per se. But I observe, I educate myself, and I have enough pilot friends...unionized and not...to know that there is a serious distrust of ALPA National right now. I know that a large percentage of ALPA represented line pilots deserve a helluva lot more than they are getting out of their representative body. Until ALPA can regain the trust of the line pilot...ALPA will continue to be a parody of itself.

All of those ALPA national officers were ELECTED!!!

If you don't like your leadership remove them and elect new ones! If you don't like Jerry what do you do? Suck it up or quit... at least with ALPA we can "hire and fire"....

As subjects of capitalism you do not have liberty nor freedom... within your company... all you can do is quit and work for another company that rejects democracy.

Capitalism and corporations are totalitarian!

Unions, homeowners associations, etc.. are democracies...

And, frankly, until ALPA can act like a UNION and UNIFY it's membership with a National Senority List, they may as well quit calling themselves a union and just roll with something more along the lines of The Loose Association of Air Line Pilots Whom We Will Allow To Cut Each Other's Throats When The Going Get's Tough, So Long As The Lavish Lifestyles of Our National Leadership Is Not Disrupted.

Let me get this straight... you love capitalism.. the ability to out bid one another and pull yourself up from your bootstraps... you like that you can move around and take your skills to a better job....

yet you chide ALPA for not stopping what you gushingly adore....

You love free market capitalism but you chide ALPA for not being successful in creating artificial market barriers that limit capitalism....

Not having a NSL allows pilots to move about and find better jobs. If we had a NSL the regional pilots would be stuck at the regionals until their number came up to go to the majors!

I won't publicly question your loyalty to this country...but I will point this out:

You can't. I vote in EVERY election that I am eligible. The girls at the absentee voting office know me....

I vote in every ALPA election.. every survey... every HOA election,

I take my responsibilities as a citizen seriously... and put those responsibilities above consumerism...

You are quite possibly a much bigger embarrassment. I believe that one could argue that...with your tired, non-stop chest thumping, name calling, and reguritated rhetoric...you, PCL, and your ilk have likely driven more pilots away from ALPA than you've ever brought in.

That fact that someone would reject democracy and their own career representation because of a moniker message board is disturbing...

"I am not going to vote in the next LEC election cause Rez and PCL are idiots".....

How UNAMERICAN!

 

[WalterSobchak]

I got about halfway through typing up a big long reply...and deleted it. You are not even worth it.

But, since you decided to indirectly invoke the representative body of the United States of America...as well as the great John Adams...I leave you with this:

In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - John Adams

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I got about halfway through typing up a big long reply...and deleted it. You are not even worth it.

That is too bad.... I wish you would... a good debate allows one to reflect and the chance to understand different viewpoints...

Our Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and the rest of our Constitution allow us certain rights under gov't but not in every organization such as clubs, societies and employment...

But that is the point... democracy is the best we've got and it has found its way into unions, civic leagues and HOA's for example... It's a methodology for people to actively participate to influence the direction of their lives.

Why they choose not to is frustrating.

Democracy should be protected and promoted whenever possible.

It is the American Way.

Perhaps you, Walter, can explain the apathy in democracy? In union and gov't elections... the participation rate so low?

But, since you decided to indirectly invoke the representative body of the United States of America...as well as the great John Adams...I leave you with this:In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - John Adams

Quotes are nice, but the meaning of the quote can be subjective or viewed to serve the readers purpose.. not necessarily the authors.

So what does that mean?


Here is another....

Voting is one of the few things where boycotting in protest clearly makes the problem worse rather than better.

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.
-Plato

Your silence gives consent. -Plato

... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election.

The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith.

The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience.

In politics, an organized minority is a political majority.

The citizen can bring our political and governmental institutions back to life, make them responsive and accountable, and keep them honest. No one else can.

We preach the virtues of democracy abroad. We must practice its duties here at home. Voting is the first duty of democracy.

Citizenship is what makes a republic -- monarchies can get along without it.

To safeguard democracy the people must have a keen sense of independence, self-respect, and their oneness.

The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within.

In true democracy every man and women is taught to think for himself or herself.

The spirit of democracy cannot be established in the midst of terrorism, whether governmental or popular.

The most effective way to restrict democracy is to transfer decision-making from the public arena to unaccountable institutions: kings and princes, priestly castes, military juntas, party dictatorships, or modern corporations.

There are no magic answers, no miraculous methods to overcome the problems we face, just the familiar ones: honest search for understanding, education, organization, action that raises the cost of state violence for its perpetrators or that lays the basis for institutional change -- and the kind of commitment that will persist despite the temptations of disillusionment, despite many failures and only limited successes, inspired by the hope of a brighter future."

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take the power from them, but to inform them by education.


Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government.

I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.

[C]reative ability and personal responsibility are strongest when the mind is free from supernatural belief and operates in an atmosphere of freedom and democracy.

Individual commitment to a group effort -- that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

That is too bad.... I wish you would... a good debate allows one to reflect and the chance to understand different viewpoints...

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate. It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

I take it you're an ALPA rep. I say this because most ALPA reps evoke the same arguments you do. They must teach you guys what to say in rep school. What's sad is all of your crap about democracy, and the members getting involved, blah, blah, blah, all it is is an excuse for the fact that you and the other reps can't get the meal on the table. Walter made that excellent point, and all you could do was hurl more insults at him (attacking his patriotism?!!!!). Well it's true what he said. The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed. You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right? After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

How embarrassing you people are...

As I was saying. You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, pal. Your (and your buddy PCL too) constant ranting about what a great organization ALPA would be if it weren't for the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership is quite embarrassing to everyone. Why don't you give it a rest before you destroy any chance ALPA may have of gaining new members (or even keeping the ones we have). Honestly, I'm embarrassed to even be associated with you.

 

[sweptback]

The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed. You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right? After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

Commanders don't take direction from their troops. Reps take direction from their constituents. Your analogy is flawed.

Basically what you're saying is, I want somebody to represent me because I don't want to do it myself. (For the record, I don't have a problem with that.) But, I want my rep to make all the right decisions even though I'm not going to tell him/her what I want them to do. If he does something I don't like, then I can blame him because after all, he's my rep and should do what I say.

See what I mean?

 

[DoinTime]

It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

What part of aviation isn't men trying to prove who's pecker is bigger? Really? Take a look at the past 100 years of aviation. The only reason humans are capable of powered flight is because its just a big cockswinging contest out there.

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate.

Your debating skills leave plenty to be desired as well. Everything you present is either personal opinion or generalized perspective. Neither of which are rooted in facts or history. I presume the explanation for your lack of hard facts is because you have never taken on the burden of doing the work of the Association yourself.

Factually, Rez presents solid facts that are planted in reality and his knowledge is gained through his personal time, sweet, and dedication to the Association. He may not be the most delicate at his presentation of the facts and that clearly binds your panties up. Such is life.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First of all... to debate one should address all that is said... take this post of yours for example... you pick and choose what of my post to reply to... that is not debating... that is cherry picking for your own benefit...

Rez-o-lution, you need to learn what a debate is. Your version of "debate" is akin to jumping up and down, screaming "you're wrong, nayh, nyah, nyah", with teary eyes closed and fingers in your years, as would a 5 year old. Saying your opponent is wrong, stupid, un-American, apathetic, aloof, naive, whatever, is also not "debating". In fact VERY LITTLE of what I see here is debate. It's mostly several guys trying to prove their pecker is bigger. And it's getting very old.

not sure what sexual organs have to do with it...

I take it you're an ALPA rep. I say this because most ALPA reps evoke the same arguments you do. They must teach you guys what to say in rep school.

Actually this is one of ALPA's problems.... the rep school needs to be better...

What's sad is all of your crap about democracy, and the members getting involved, blah, blah, blah, all it is is an excuse for the fact that you and the other reps can't get the meal on the table.

Fine. We can't deliver... so why do we keep getting elected? Why doesn't someone who can do the job get elected?

Walter made that excellent point, and all you could do was hurl more insults at him (attacking his patriotism?!!!!).

Is it American to shun voting? To reject self government?

Well it's true what he said. The members elected the reps to represent them so that they didn't have to represent themselves, and they've been sorely disappointed.

Here is the point.. the members Haven't elected them. Or only 33% have.

Can you defend minority participation?

When I was a rep, I asked the membership what they want. I actively sought out their wishes. I GOT ZERO reply.

You want to blame your failures as a rep on a lack of support of the membership. Because it can't possibly be your fault, right?

Define failures or successes. I had a 100% resolution pass rate at MEC meetings. I started committees, saved a couple of jobs/carrers, and created a program so that sick pilots could care for their families..

If you want to judge ALPA reps because they did not stop global market forces, put handfuls of cash in pilots pockets and had rose petal path laid down for them to walk on then.. yes.. we've failed...

Define your expectations... what do you want from ALPA reps... and then justify your expectations...

After all, you volunteered so that makes you smarter, and better than the average pilot. Go ask military commanders where the buck stops whan they blow it. I assure you, they don't blame their troops! How disgraceful!

The MIL is not a democracy nor does it operate one.

As I was saying. You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, pal. Your (and your buddy PCL too) constant ranting about what a great organization ALPA would be if it weren't for the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership is quite embarrassing to everyone.

Well apathy hasn't worked for 77 years... got any good ideas?

Why don't you give it a rest before you destroy any chance ALPA may have of gaining new members (or even keeping the ones we have). Honestly, I'm embarrassed to even be associated with you.

Just participate. The fact that you wouldn't because of a moniker postings on a message board is embarrassing...

 

[XPOO]

#1. George W. Bush was the first elected president in over 40 years to garner over 50% of the actual votes casted in the 2004 elections.

#2. I already know my pecker is bigger.

 

[Nevets]

Your (and your buddy PCL too) constant ranting about what a great organization ALPA would be if it weren't for the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership is quite embarrassing to everyone.

I would argue that ALPA is a great organization despite "the lazy, ignorant, aloof, uninformed membership."

 

[Nevets]

Two weeks ago, ALPA's president, Capt. John Prater, sent a letter to explain how this vote to consider changing the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws (CBL) came about, including background information detailing the original ATA MEC request and the Executive Council’Flightinfo.com Hangar - Reply to Topics subcommittee findings. Last week, ALPA's vice president of administration, Capt. Bill Couette, and vice president of finance/treasurer, Capt. Randy Helling, taped a video message that explained the reasons behind this recommended change. Since that time, we’ve received several messages from concerned line pilots, and we feel that we need to set the record straight on a few issues.


First, this change would affect only those ALPA members who are not paying dues on their 401(k) contributions. Currently, only pilots at Atlas, Island Air, ASA, ExpressJet, Comair, ASTAR, American Eagle, Gemini, Mesa, Mesaba, Polar, Pinnacle, PSA, Ryan, Sun Country, Spirit, and TSA do not pay dues on their income deferred into 401(k) plans, because their 401(k) is their only retirement plan. Approximately 30 percent of our 45,000 dues-paying members work for these airlines, and total dues paid by pilots at these airlines represent 16 percent of ALPA’s total dues income.


On the other hand, the remaining 70 percent of our dues-paying members—all of whom have a 401(k) plan or Canadian equivalent plan available to them—pay dues on their earnings prior to any 401(k) contributions, if they make such contributions. A “yes” vote will not increase their dues. The disparity in the number of pilots who do and do not pay dues on 401(k) contributions is just one example of the fairness issue raised in previous communications.


Second, this vote is the outcome of nearly five years of work, not a reaction to any recent events. The Executive Council and Executive Board made this decision after years of study. Some pilots have concluded that this proposal is somehow meant to offset the loss of US Airways, America West, Aloha, ATA, Champion, Kitty Hawk, and Skyway. Although the change would provide a modest increase in ALPA’s dues income, the approximate $1.4 million increase in annual dues from this change—nearly 40 percent of which will return to MECs to fund their day-to-day activities—is less than 10 percent of the recent losses in dues income.


The vast majority of the changes necessary to offset the $15 million loss in dues revenue have already been implemented by your union leaders, with a significant focus on cost cutting across ALPA, including:

• 
  [*]Eliminating more than 40 staff positions across the union, coupled with other staff savings, which generated a savings of $5.1 million annually
  [*]Reducing funding of affected MECs, which saved $5.5 million, and reducing funding of the Operating Contingency Fund by more than $500,000
  [*]Restructuring national committees, streamlining activities, and generally reducing costs to the tune of $1.2 million annually
  [*]Retaining unused LEC funding (currently at $44/pilot per year) within the Administrative & Support account for an estimated savings of $900,000 annually
  [*]Eliminating home Internet expense reimbursements for pilot representatives, producing savings of more than $100,000 annually.

Since the events of 9/11 and the subsequent reduction in pilot income, ALPA has continually reengineered the Association in order to preserve the financial viability of the union. Overall, ALPA has reduced its expenses by more than $40 million since dues revenue peaked in 2002, including the elimination of 101 staff positions through attrition and job eliminations. After the latest cuts are complete, ALPA will have 353 staff positions, down from 454 on Sept. 10, 2001.


The pilots you have elected to serve as your MEC chairmen, executive vice presidents, and national officers willingly assume the difficult obligation to ensure that resources are available for our collective union while keeping individual members’ concerns in mind. In this case, your representatives have acted in what they believe is a spirit of fairness and prudence. Now it is in your hands to endorse or reject their recommended course of action on this important issue. As always, thank you for serving your pilots and your union.


Fraternally,


ALPA National Officers

 

[CFIT]

So does APLA really have a Flight.Info-Hangar - Reply to Topics Sub Commitee?

No Way!

Rez, are you really in charge of that?

Remember, your answer must be in the form of a question.

 

[pipejockey]

However, right or wrong, when the average person thinks of their union...they will, by nature, think of what their union dues are doing to help their job security and bottom line. When there has been little to no progression in either of these catagories (and, in many cases, a backslide)...and the representative body starts requesting more money without taking any kind of similar concessions...you can see where the membership might start to get a little fed up with the "Status Quo" that Prater, et al. seem so hell bent on maintaining. I'm just not sure how anyone can defend that...

Exactly!! Except I would have to disagree with your statement "in many cases a backslide". Try in ALL cases a backslide. Corrected for inflation, who actually has more earning power now than they did in 2001, except for southworst who is merely benefiting and exploiting our own demise. And FedEx and UPS don't count!

There is a lot of talk on here about how ALPA does not represent their pilots but there is little evidence to back up this claim.

Are you kidding me!! I am literally shaking my head in disbelief at your extremely naive comment. Let me help you out. Look at just about every carriers pilot contract prior to 2002, and compare it with todays, taking in consideration that 7 years of inflation at an average of 3% has gone by, meaning we'd have to earn about 20% more than we did in 2001 just to stay even.

And for a real shocker, take a look at pilot contracts pre 1978!! But you know what, I am willing to accept the slide this profession has taken in the 23 years after 1978, but what has been done to it the past 7 is not only beyond belief, it is corrupt, immoral, and should be against any civilized law we have in society!

 

[pipejockey]

5% LEC participation
35% LEC voter participation
37% Age 60 survey member participation
16% ALPA-PAC participation

Eliminate the top 20% of each carriers seniority list and then recalculate the figures. Those senior captains doing transcons and international, 1 leg a day, 10 days a month or so earning their 150-200 grand(which is far lower than it should be) are the most complacent sob's around. Their attitude is "I've got mine now F YOU!!" And now they are full of glee we can't get their old decrepit bodies out of the left seat for another 5 years and rub our faces in it! They remind me of when Charlton Heston speaking in front of the NRA about the only way to get his firearms from him when he said, over his cold dead body! Well just replace fireams with control column, and you have most of these captains!