ALPA/401k revisited

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, that's what those numbers include. TOTAL compensation. Health care, 401k, pension, expense reimbursement, and everything else that has a monetary value (like work rules).

NOT TRUE....Those numbers do not include the pensions....

The first number is the salary....the second number includes expenses such as meal/housing etc....

The pension is on top of those numbers....

DW's pension is about 150K a year.....Any of the members getting a 150k a year pension for 8 years of service?

How any of you can justify that is beyond me.....

 

[DoinTime]

DW's pension is about 200K a year.....Any of the members getting a 200k a year pension for 8 years of service?

In a earlier post you said this:

Pension 5% per year of service, max 60% of Total Base Compensation, providing for single premium annuity commencing at age 55 or termination of office whichever is later. 8 yrs service = 40% X $372,728 = $149,091.20 per year. 12 years service = 60% X $372,728 = $223,636.80 per year.

Which is it? There is a big difference between $150,000/year and $200,000/year. Or maybe you just have a 34% embellishment factor built into your bullsh*t?

Jerry Atkin received over $1.5 million in compensation in 2006. I don't recall any Skywest or ASA pilots pulling in that kind of money. Why is everyone so silent on that injustice?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Jerry Atkin received over $1.5 million in compensation in 2006. I don't recall any Skywest or ASA pilots pulling in that kind of money. Why is everyone so silent on that injustice?

Speaking of BS, that's about the worst logic I've ever seen. Atkin is the President of a very successful corporation. The ALPA president's success is highly debatable, and he doesn't even "run" the company since he has a General Manager to do it. He's just the pretty face who takes credit.

I'm a firm believer that the ALPA President should make whatever he would be paid on the line at his company, plus a small override, and all expenses covered. Not the obscene money he makes now.

He certainly would have a lot more credibility with his membership, wouldn't he?

 

[DoinTime]

Speaking of BS, that's about the worst logic I've ever seen. Atkin is the President of a very successful corporation. The ALPA president's success is highly debatable, and he doesn't even "run" the company since he has a General Manager to do it.

My point was that Jerry doesn't perform the same job as a pilot, so why should he be paid as one? The ALPA presidency is NOT a piloting job. Why should there be a correlation to what a pilot earns?

Maybe a better example is Pinnacle's Phil Trenary made about $1.2 million last year and his airline is not so successful.

He's just the pretty face who takes credit.

John Prater is not pretty.

I'm a firm believer that the ALPA President should make whatever he would be paid on the line at his company, plus a small override, and all expenses covered. Not the obscene money he makes now. He certainly would have a lot more credibility with his membership, wouldn't he?

What if the ALPA President were a regional captain? Should he still make $70,000/year? Why would anyone pursue the office of President if there wasn't anything in it for them?

Prater used to be a 777 captain working 10 days/month without a care in the world. Now he is lucky to get any days off and the weight of 50,000 cry baby pilots is on his back. Only an egomaniacal P.O.S. would make an argument that the office of the President is only entitled to rank and file pay.

 

[pipejockey]

I'm a firm believer that the ALPA President should make whatever he would be paid on the line at his company, plus a small override, and all expenses covered.

I firmly disagree!! Why should he get paid what a senior captain would get paid on the line while flying all around the country or the world, being away from home weekends, most holidays, the kids soccer game etc, all the while his feet are firmly planted on the ground, home nearly every night, weekends off, holidays off etc etc!

 

[PCL_128]

I firmly disagree!! Why should he get paid what a senior captain would get paid on the line while flying all around the country or the world, being away from home weekends, most holidays, the kids soccer game etc, all the while his feet are firmly planted on the ground, home nearly every night, weekends off, holidays off etc etc!

You can't possibly be serious. The President gets about 20 day off per year. He's never home, and he barely sees his family. His entire life is nothing but work.

 

[spinproof]

His entire life is nothing but work.

:laugh: ...... which begs the question, on what?

What has happened to you since your forced vacation? You need a little sun and roughage. Also a high colonic is something you should consider on a regular basis.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

:laugh: ...... which begs the question, on what?
.

I think the fact that you don't know and don't understand is the real issue....


What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?


Yes, their needs to be fundamental changes at ALPA. But expecting any union officer to be effective in this current environment of oil crises, pro company gov't and evolving industry is quite amazing.

Now, lets qualify expectations of effectiveness....

How do you measure it? Your own personal condition? Is that what this is about? If not, then tell us...

In other words, wanting to mob the local community center because conditions in your 'Hood stink is misguided....

 

[spinproof]

I think the fact that you don't know and don't understand is the real issue....


What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?


Yes, their needs to be fundamental changes at ALPA. But expecting any union officer to be effective in this current environment of oil crises, pro company gov't and evolving industry is quite amazing.

Now, lets qualify expectations of effectiveness....

How do you measure it? Your own personal condition? Is that what this is about? If not, then tell us...

In other words, wanting to mob the local community center because conditions in your 'Hood stink is misguided....

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

In typical bureaucratic fashion they seem to be more concerned about maintaining a status quo than "feeling anyone's pain"!

How you can continue to defend a room full of lawyers , whose latest action is to get the BOD to continue to fund them in the manner in which they have become accustomed, while the membership accepts concessionary contracts and furloughs, is disgraceful!

Your lectures on involvement ring hollow in light of years of being "shaken down" by the process! Now when these same bureaucrats see their "cushy" jobs being threatened, their first reaction is to protect themselves not those they supposedly serve.

 

[WalterSobchak]

What is the ALPA president supposed to be doing? Acting as YOUR own personal Scott Boras?

Maybe it is my non-pilot, non-union-represented mindset talking here, but...

Are you're saying that it is too much to expect representation from your paid representative body?

Listen, I know you can't expect ALPA National to kiss each individual arse of it's membership...but even the guy who just pays his 1.95% and gives nothing more seems to deserve at least a little bit more out of his representative body than it seems many of the ALPA membership are getting. You have to admit that the complete lack of unification of a group that calls itself a union is really setting back ALPA's ability to be effective and relevant.

As you know, you and I agree that ALPA Safety and the ALPA PAC do great work in promoting and putting the spotlight on issues that impact pilots and the industry as a whole. However, right or wrong, when the average person thinks of their union...they will, by nature, think of what their union dues are doing to help their job security and bottom line. When there has been little to no progression in either of these catagories (and, in many cases, a backslide)...and the representative body starts requesting more money without taking any kind of similar concessions...you can see where the membership might start to get a little fed up with the "Status Quo" that Prater, et al. seem so hell bent on maintaining. I'm just not sure how anyone can defend that...

 

[DoinTime]

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

You proclaim to know a lot about how ALPA works. Have you garnered this knowledge from personal work experience with the staff at ALPA or is it just your own conspiracy?


There is a lot of talk on here about how ALPA does not represent their pilots but there is little evidence to back up this claim. Perhaps this debate could take a turn towards the intelligent and give us an opportunity to hash out some real issues.*****

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Put down your autographed photo of Prater and listen up. ALPO is overstaffed and under performing. They care more(and it seems so do you and your girlfriend) about their own personal welfare than those they represent.

This may or may not be true. However, your post is just rhetoric and opinion on your part. HOW is ALPA overstaffed and underperforming..

What performance standards has ALPA not met? Sure it maybe be obvious... and if so, then you should be able to quantify it...

In typical bureaucratic fashion they seem to be more concerned about maintaining a status quo than "feeling anyone's pain"!

Despite the layoffs at ALPA?

How you can continue to defend a room full of lawyers , whose latest action is to get the BOD to continue to fund them in the manner in which they have become accustomed, while the membership accepts concessionary contracts and furloughs, is disgraceful!

It seems to me that the latest finding tactic is via vote.

What does an ALPA member do when s/he feels passionate about an issue, yet 95% of the members don't?

Your lectures on involvement ring hollow in light of years of being "shaken down" by the process! Now when these same bureaucrats see their "cushy" jobs being threatened, their first reaction is to protect themselves not those they supposedly serve.

So what is the solution? More non particaption? You are dissatified but you have no solution to your paradox, which is As long as I am unhappy I will continue to do nothing...

When do you take action and define your union in terms of the membership?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe it is my non-pilot, non-union-represented mindset talking here, but...

Probably....

Are you're saying that it is too much to expect representation from your paid representative body?

Define expectations...

For a democratic group that doesn't communicate and then complains that their representatives don't listen and address the needs of the membership is quite illogical...

Listen, I know you can't expect ALPA National to kiss each individual arse of it's membership...but even the guy who just pays his 1.95% and gives nothing more seems to deserve at least a little bit more out of his representative body than it seems many of the ALPA membership are getting. You have to admit that the complete lack of unification of a group that calls itself a union is really setting back ALPA's ability to be effective and relevant.

5% LEC participation
35% LEC voter participation
37% Age 60 survey member participation
16% ALPA-PAC participation


If you want to talk about lack of unification... why not start right here. These are the things that each unsatisfied member can control RIGHT NOW.

If immediate change is desired, why not start with the one thing that members have immediate and unconditional control over... themselves...

Instead of complaining about representatives they can only influence, why not control what they can.


Then.. they must understand democracy... and its slow, aggravating and less than desired results... but also keep in mind... is there a better way?

But no... it is easier to treat ALPA and its dues as a strip mall with 100% guarantees and the customer is always right mantra instead of a civil democracy.

It is easier to whine and complain to a small group of four or five in the crew room then draft a resolution, attend an LEC meeting, effectively and intelligently communicate and convince fellow pilots that your idea has merit and they should vote yes...

As you know, you and I agree that ALPA Safety and the ALPA PAC do great work in promoting and putting the spotlight on issues that impact pilots and the industry as a whole. However, right or wrong, when the average person thinks of their union...they will, by nature, think of what their union dues are doing to help their job security and bottom line. When there has been little to no progression in either of these catagories (and, in many cases, a backslide)...and the representative body starts requesting more money without taking any kind of similar concessions...you can see where the membership might start to get a little fed up with the "Status Quo" that Prater, et al. seem so hell bent on maintaining. I'm just not sure how anyone can defend that...

I agree completely... that is why I am against the increased in 401k dues. and your quote above is exactly why...

But justify why MINIORITY participation by the membership is a good thing? It is quite the double standard... the membership simply says... "we want you to do what we want, but we are not going to tell what we want" And we is really me. Because each member has their own idea about what should be done. 56,000 pilots who won't communicate yet expect to be happy.


Only until they are engaged can they effectively critique and work to make positive change...

Disengaged and uninformed people make poor reformers...

 

[WalterSobchak]

This may or may not be true. However, your post is just rhetoric and opinion on your part.

...which is not too far off from what you post here. Some truth and a whole bunch of regurgitated rhetoric.

For a democratic group that doesn't communicate and then complains that their representatives don't listen and address the needs of the membership is quite illogical...

But justify why MINIORITY participation by the membership is a good thing? It is quite the double standard... the membership simply says... "we want you to do what we want, but we are not going to tell what we want" And we is really me. Because each member has their own idea about what should be done. 56,000 pilots who won't communicate yet expect to be happy.


Only until they are engaged can they effectively critique and work to make positive change...

Disengaged and uninformed people make poor reformers...

But, Rez...what has ALPA (National and Local) done to engage these people who are disengaged?

Should the membership care enough to engage themselves? Probably. But, when the membership has become jaded by certain actions of National, whose responsibility is it to re-engage the membership? From the perspective of the guy on the outside looking in...it seems that there is a complete disconnect on both sides and someone has to step up to repair the disconnect. It would seem that would fall on the shoulders of the "larger entity" that is supposed to be there to serve the membership...especially if you are asking for more financial support from those represented.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...which is not too far off from what you post here. Some truth and a whole bunch of regurgitated rhetoric.

The participation numbers are rhetoric? Seem like facts...

But, Rez...what has ALPA (National and Local) done to engage these people who are disengaged?

Are you serious? This is democracy... not consumerism....

The ability for each individual to effect change is there.... yes is it hard work.. but should it be easy? And if so.. who says....

Should the membership care enough to engage themselves? Probably.

Stop right there. End of discussion... but no... you gotta keep going...


That is like saying.. yeah I am in debt and I should stop...but......

But, when the membership has become jaded by certain actions of National, whose responsibility is it to re-engage the membership?

The membership! Who else is going to do it!

That is like saying.. if I can't find job and no one will engage me... who responsibility is it?

You are unbelievable!

To sit there and defend apathy, coddle victimization and reject democracy... are you an American? TO believe that some else is responsible for your situation... unreal!

From the perspective of the guy on the outside looking in...it seems that there is a complete disconnect on both sides and someone has to step up to repair the disconnect. It would seem that would fall on the shoulders of the "larger entity" that is supposed to be there to serve the membership...especially if you are asking for more financial support from those represented.

I'll say it again.... the membership does not participate. How is the leadership suppose to serve a membership that does not engage! If you want to play which came first..chicken or the egg, go right ahead.. I am not going to wait till my career is over to say... "well shat.. maybe I should've done something instead of blaming others for my unhappiness"

So a guy in the midst of the masses looks around at the apathy, complaining and whining.. and says.. I'll volunteer to make our group better...

And as soon as he steps forward from the masses, willing to make efforts to make the masses better off than they are.... he becomes the reason for the masses suffering....

Note that the volunteer was elected! The masses hated DW.. they had to have change... and now they hate JP... maybe there is a problem with the membership...

How embarrassing you people are...