Airtran has reached a tentative agreement!!

[Cruncher]

Lear,

What or who are these guys: Twomey-Kasher ?

Are these the hostages mentioned above? Hope I did not just bounce threads.

 

[relief tube]

So 5th year FO $91. We just waited five years for a cost of living increase! Nice

Im just glad a cheap-ass place to work like airtran is going away. now we just need virgin america, spirit and allegiant to do the same.

 

[jonjuan]

Im just glad a cheap-ass place to work like airtran is going away. now we just need virgin america, spirit and allegiant to do the same.

Good luck. They are entering hyper growth mode.

 

[Clyde Frog]

The vote may show you how smart you think those of us are . . . . Those of us who have been here the whole time for this contract fight, those of us who have actually served on numerous committees, walked the picket line every time, watched our friends get taken hostage, and voted to give money to our furloughees, well, we may feel a little differently than you, junior, whether you think we're smart or not.

PS, I personally gave over $600. out of my pocket to a fund for furloughees that Christmas. I hope none of it went to you, you sanctimonious p.o.s.

Excellent post Tyrone.

 

[MILPILOT17]

The vote may show you how smart you think those of us are . . . . Those of us who have been here the whole time for this contract fight, those of us who have actually served on numerous committees, walked the picket line every time, watched our friends get taken hostage, and voted to give money to our furloughees, well, we may feel a little differently than you, junior, whether you think we're smart or not.

PS, I personally gave over $600. out of my pocket to a fund for furloughees that Christmas. I hope none of it went to you, you sanctimonious p.o.s.

Ty, that's an excellent point about those of you that have been there the "whole" time? What do you think the SWA guys that have been here the "whole" time are going to think about the SLI? Maybe they will treat you the same way that you're treating your AT brother? Just food for thought.

 

[doh]

Spewing a little frustration is hardly mistreating your brothers. Especially on an anonymous web board. As for the SLI, I keep hammering on fair and equitable being whatever you can sell to your arbitrator(s). Back to the subject at hand! PWA or not so much?

 

[MILPILOT17]

I think his last sentence says it all.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, that's an excellent point about those of you that have been there the "whole" time? What do you think the SWA guys that have been here the "whole" time are going to think about the SLI? .

I'm not begrudging the junior pilot for his 30% raise, I'm begrudging him for his insulting statements about those of us that are unhappy with this TA.

You won't find me calling senior SWA pilots "stupid" for not wanting this merger, far from it.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

What or who are these guys: Twomey-Kasher ?

Are these the hostages mentioned above? Hope I did not just bounce threads.

No, they're not the hostages.

Twomey and Kasher are the two last names of the pilots who filed a grievance over reserve pay and received quite an unexpected outcome that has given AirTran the best reserve pay system of ANY airline, bar none. The reserve rules suck, but the credit system for reserve is unsurpassed and, unfortunately, we lost it.

What it does, in a nutshell, is assign a credit VALUE to each reserve day that is added in TOTAL to the flying you do for the month. It works like this (hypothetical scenario):

You have 12 days off on a reserve line this month. You work 3 4-day trips worth 21 hours each for a total credit of 63 hours. That's 12 days out of 18.

The other 6 days you don't fly. Normal guarantee is 70 hours. But instead of crediting 70 hours since you under-credited your guarantee, they add 6 days of 4.0 hrs per day to your credit. Total credit added: 24 hours, plus 63 hours is a total paycheck of 87 hours.

It's not unusual for pilots to credit 100+ hours on reserve and only fly 70 or so. This has cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last 10 years, was totally unexpected by BOTH sides (management AND union), and has set up a situation whereby, unless the pay increase for reserve pilots was 20% or more, with the loss of Twomey-Kasher, our reserves take a pay cut.

Hope that explains it in a nutshell.

 

[AFcitrus]

Actually Lear the ALPA gurus who figure this stuff out came up with a figure closer to $11million/year. That's how much we give up by giving up that pay system. Some of that will be returned to reserve pilots in the form or 5-8hrs more guarantee and probably 2 to 3 more days off. It is still a huge loss that we apparently were unable to recoup elsewhere.

By the way that figure came from a status representative.

 

[Lear70]

Hadn't heard that figure quantified, but I'm not surprised. Figure 20 hours of soft pay on average per month times the 150 F/O's and 150 CA's on reserve.

3000 hours * $47 per hr = $144,000 for F/O's per month
3000 hours * $120 per hr = $360,000 for CA's per month

Total per month, $404,000 * 12 = $4.8 Million per year, give or take, just rough numbers. Hadn't really thought it out before. Thanks for the clarification...

 

[Nindiri]

Can the company still urp and will it reduce the guarantee?

 

[jstarav8r]

The reserve pay system hasn't had as much soft pay since they started URPing us. So, if the rules are better, and I can have more days off, that's a good thing for me (6 year capt.) I did expect a better pay rate then what I'm hearing about though. That, coupled with the scope, sick, and vacation sections = huge disappointment. Also, the hostages absolutely need to return.

 

[WayBack]

98% of the pilots had authorized a strike, and time was running out for mgmnt. Pilots were ready to request being released, and the next event was the Strike Center opening.

ALPA would have told you to pound sand. Even they saw how embarrassing the Spirit strike was.

 

[Lear70]

No URP'ing. Period. But now there's no reason for them to, since reserve days won't have any hard credit built into them.

12 days off 6 months out of the year (peak travel months), 14 days off the other 6 months.

 

[Nindiri]

!2/14 isn't too bad. I've seen worse.

 

[Candide]

This forum over the past few years is littered with quotes such as this describing pilot employment with Airtran as a Bataan-esque experience:

You have no idea what we have been through in the last five and a half years . . . .

When someone who has been here for barely half of this struggle to get a contract, and hasn't participated in any meaningful way, starts telling me that if I don't vote for an agreement that gives me a lousy 8% raise and abandons one of our contract hostages, I'm stupid. . . . . uh, yeah, that does make me angry.

Ty Webb et. al.: Do you realize how schizophrenic this sounds on the heels of your demands for relative seniority?

I'm a mid-senior SWA FO. My career would never be described as a "struggle". Although I sit in the right seat, I make as much or more than you do. My work rules are great. Rigs are best in the industry. I trust (but verify) SWA management. I can make a lot extra if I choose. There's true camaraderie in the work force. Great hotels. My quality of life is fantastic. I, along with the vast majority of my fellow pilots, am a happy camper.

You have little to none of that...yet.

But you seem to think the upgrade and longevity you've accrued at your time at Airtran, which you describe by saying "you have no idea what I've been through", should not only propel you above me, but launch you well into the stratosphere of relative seniority with SWA Captains. Unbelievable.

I'm sure you don't actually feel that way, and your forum posts since the acquisition announcement are just digital posturing, but it still grates a bit.

Personally, I hope you guys get a great new contract that you would be happy with outside of the acquisition--for your sakes. Then I hope the acquisition deal gets called off--for our sakes.

I think that's the only "fair and equitable" solution that Ty and I would agree on.

 

[CMonBoard]

By the same token, Candide, is it your position that an Airtran pilot give up of their seniority in entirety and be placed just below you on the combined seniority list? Of course I'm being somewhat sarcastic because I am sure you don't mean that, though that is how you come across in your statement. If it doesn't go the way you want, could you still come to work, be happy, and have a good time at the overnight?

 

[Candide]

Cmon,

I want to be reasonable. I want us to eventually thrive together as a pilot group. I want the outcome to be fair. I want to fly with former AAI guys and have a blast. These are things that are important to the vast majority of SWA pilots.

I won't comment on a specific SLI solution, because I don't think that's a good idea. That said, we all worked extremely hard to get to SWA, and everyone considered getting here be the crowning achievement of our careers and the proverbial winning lottery ticket. Because employment at WN merits that reaction.

I simply responded to the relative seniority "you're the same percentage before as after" solution that I've read Ty and others endorse, which I think is completely inconsistent with vision of my first paragraph.

And I hold nothing against Ty et. al. for the posts. If we perceive that perhaps SLI negotiations spill over onto this forum (spoiler alert: they don't!), it's typical strategy to start with an unrealistic positive.

But this post is about your TA. I am serious when I say the ideal scenario is you guys getting a kick ass contract and then the two companies going their separate ways. I'd prefer SWA's growth to be organic (i.e. inherently seniority enhancing).

 

[Ty Webb]

Candide:

Thanks for a civil and heartfelt response, and I mean that sincerely.

I think that it is important to point out two things:

1) I am a ten-year employee who has been flying a 737-700 here for 6 years as a Captain in our airplanes, on our routes. Your company bought our successful and growing airline, and under existing law, the seniority lists must be combined. I did not ask for this merger, and I am not an interviewee. I expect to be merged according to current law and past practice.

2) I respect and appreciate Southwest's culture and I am looking forward to being a productive part of the Southwest family. I did not ask for this, nor did you, but here we are. I am willing to make the best of it, and I hope you are, too. I will not stand in the way of your upgrade or career progression, but I don't expect you to take away what I have earned, either. If my choice is to be an AirTran Captain in the top half of our list, or become a Southwest FO, well, my choice would be to remain exactly where I am. I'm sure you would prefer that, too . . . but we're not the ones calling the shots.

Regards,

Ty

 

[Ty Webb]

ALPA would have told you to pound sand. Even they saw how embarrassing the Spirit strike was.

Uh, yeah. Whatever. After 5.5 years, and 98% strike vote, if the SWA deal had not been announced, we were on track for Alaska plus 1%.

We now return you to your happy place. :laugh:.

 

[ivauir]

I expect to be merged according to current law and past practice.

You will be.

It is disingenuous for you to contend that the law or past practice support your remarkably extreme positions on the SLI. "Fair and equitable" is a two way street.

Peace

 

[Lear70]

*sigh* Why does no one listen?

Moderator hat on:

There's a thread on the SWA/AAI deal. We have talked extensively about SLI issues there. The discussion on such needs to STAY there.

What I'm likely to do tomorrow (assuming the company signs Vince's paper as I have it on good authority the vote on the T.A. will be tabled until we DO have Vince's papers signed by management), when the T.A. comes out, is lock this thread.

Any further discussion on the SLI issue in a T.A. thread will be summarily deleted as off-topic conversation per the ToS.

I don't care if you discuss the SLI. That's fine. I'm not saying anyone is WRONG in their opinion, they're all reasonable opinions, from your own point of view, and everyone is entitled to theirs, and that's fine. I'm simply saying to keep it in the appropriate thread so that we can discuss the T.A. that will likely be released to the pilot group tomorrow.

Thanks,

/mod

 

[slaquer5]

*sigh* Why does no one listen?

Moderator hat on:

There's a thread on the SWA/AAI deal. We have talked extensively about SLI issues there. The discussion on such needs to STAY there.

What I'm likely to do tomorrow (assuming the company signs Vince's paper as I have it on good authority the vote on the T.A. will be tabled until we DO have Vince's papers signed by management), when the T.A. comes out, is lock this thread.

Any further discussion on the SLI issue in a T.A. thread will be summarily deleted as off-topic conversation per the ToS.

I don't care if you discuss the SLI. That's fine. I'm not saying anyone is WRONG in their opinion, they're all reasonable opinions, from your own point of view, and everyone is entitled to theirs, and that's fine. I'm simply saying to keep it in the appropriate thread so that we can discuss the T.A. that will likely be released to the pilot group tomorrow.

Thanks,

/mod

I hope I am wrong but what I take from what you said was that if anyone says anything you disagree with,you are going to delete there post . JMO

 

[ASADFW7]

Give it break MOD do you show the same interest in every thread on Flightinfo? Stop taking this so serious, this is entertainment not a sport, like wrestling. Ya'all work in the heart of Georgia Championship Wrestling too!

 

[Skyboy722]

No kidding MOD! Thread creep is part of these forums, and I've never seen you moderate thread creep before. What you mean is: "This subject is a really big deal to ME, so I'll delete any post that doesn't talk about what I want to talk about!"

So I expect you then to moderate EVERY SINGLE THREAD on this forum for thread creep. That, or GET OVER YOURSELF.

In your words: *sigh*

 

[Kharma Police]

I hope I am wrong but what I take from what you said was that if anyone says anything you disagree with,you are going to delete there post . JMO

I didn't get that from his post. He said if you want to talk about AAI/SWA SLI issues, go to the specific thread with that title and feel free to talk about what you think. If you want to talk about the AirTran TA, then stay here. It seemed like every Southwest FO with an opinion on what is, "fair and equitable" decided to post here on a thread about AirTran's TA. Sounds cut and dry?

However, the funny thing about this bickering is that we haven't even seen the fricking TA yet and our seniority lists will be decided by arbitrators. We are all a bunch of monkeys fu@king footballs arguing over things we have no control over.

My fellow AT monkeys, tomorrow we will be able to start slinging poo once the wonderful TA details come out. Don't worry you Southwest dudes, you will have plenty of opportunity after the list comes out to hurl some feces too!

 

[Lear70]

I hope I am wrong but what I take from what you said was that if anyone says anything you disagree with,you are going to delete there post . JMO

No, that's not what I said.

I'm pretty sure I specifically said if you want to discuss it IN THE APPROPRIATE THREAD, I'll leave it alone. Has nothing to do with disagreeing with it or not, and everything to do with keeping a thread on track.

Yes, thread creep happens, but we've been allowing it less and less in small batches, starting with the USAirways/AWA threads (and I don't have a dog in that fight but have restricted THEIR threads as well), and we're going to start applying it here.

Sorry if you don't like it.

 

[ivauir]

Lear,

I was responding to YOUR statements about the SLI. So put that moderator hat back on and moderate yourself.

Grow up and stop using your moderator position as a bully pulpit, your agenda is transparent.

Sorry if you don't like it.

Or should I say; using your moderator authority to be a bully.

 

[kwick]

This forum over the past few years is littered with quotes such as this describing pilot employment with Airtran as a Bataan-esque experience:



Ty Webb et. al.: Do you realize how schizophrenic this sounds on the heels of your demands for relative seniority?

I'm a mid-senior SWA FO. My career would never be described as a "struggle". Although I sit in the right seat, I make as much or more than you do. My work rules are great. Rigs are best in the industry. I trust (but verify) SWA management. I can make a lot extra if I choose. There's true camaraderie in the work force. Great hotels. My quality of life is fantastic. I, along with the vast majority of my fellow pilots, am a happy camper.

You have little to none of that...yet.

But you seem to think the upgrade and longevity you've accrued at your time at Airtran, which you describe by saying "you have no idea what I've been through", should not only propel you above me, but launch you well into the stratosphere of relative seniority with SWA Captains. Unbelievable.

I'm sure you don't actually feel that way, and your forum posts since the acquisition announcement are just digital posturing, but it still grates a bit.

Personally, I hope you guys get a great new contract that you would be happy with outside of the acquisition--for your sakes. Then I hope the acquisition deal gets called off--for our sakes.

I think that's the only "fair and equitable" solution that Ty and I would agree on.

The Airtran Pilots should keep their present seats and relative seniority.
That doesn't affect your pay or seniority at all.