AIRTRAN has a TA ?!?!

[DougCorp-9]

how about scare the life outta them by getting alpa cards?

Ditto

 

[HalinTexas]

Do NPA/FL types have access to contract comparisons?

If not, may I suggest http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com. It's mostly accurate albeit it doesn't cover many QOL issues you might be concerned about.

Don't look at ATA's though. It's concessionary and crap, but others that have not entered BK might be worth looking at.

Saying that you're now on par with DAL is disengenuous at best. BK and concessions again. New airplanes? Please. They'll show up after you're into the next round of negotiations.

Raise the bar. You can do it.

 

[EMBATP]

here is what i am saying...we are making money and the experts say we will continue to do so, we are offering around 400 million for medex, and ordering airplanes, all which i dont think you can do if you are not profitable...

we deserve better in this contract, not just for us but for the rest of the industry...if we sign this we may as well just work under the contract we have now...

remember if this thing passes its not the unions fault its ours for voting yes...

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I agree Alaska and Frontier pay rates are still much better then the new rates. We should be AVE with them and nothing less.

 

[Lowrider717]

Recall? No dice, make 'em stay and fix this turd. (alledged turd, I mean)

 

[Lear70]

I think it's time to petition for a recall of the BOD and President!

If it's as bad as I'm hearing, then I'll be looking for them to appoint an entire new Negotiating Committee, just like last time, or I'll be signing that recall petition.

Door-to-door pay is between 90-120 minutes of pay each month. Loss of that is a pay cut of 2%, so there went about half of our pay "raise" or any of the 2% match on the 401k.

Reserve pilots losing 3.5 hour daily pay is an average 20% pay cut.

Reserve pilots losing their hard days off and turning them into "floating" days just screwed every pilot on reserve and every new-hire to come through the door. I'm not doing that to our CA's on reserve for 2+ years, nor am I doing that to our new-hires.

no it's the worst possible time to do that.

I don't care if it's bad timing or not. Put something out like this and someone's going to hang. If they don't put new people in, they can all hang together.

Which is worse? Having an MEC and NC that will bring us a sh*t sandwich again, or starting over again with a group that's more hard-line and taking a delay in negotiations to do it?

I don't agree that it "sends a bad signal to management". I believe it sends a very clear "We're not going to take it, and we'll string up anyone that tries it again" message.

 

[Lear70]

Do NPA/FL types have access to contract comparisons?

Yes. We're actually using ALPA's R&A (Research & Analysis) services on a contract basis.

They knew what the comparison was, and they signed off on 5% initial raises which don't even bring us out of the bottom 3 Major carriers rates.

Between that, Scope, and the Scheduling give-backs, my NO vote is just standing by for the balloting to open.

 

[Lowrider717]

If it's as bad as I'm hearing, then I'll be looking for them to appoint an entire new Negotiating Committee, just like last time, or I'll be signing that recall petition.

Door-to-door pay is between 90-120 minutes of pay each month. Loss of that is a pay cut of 2%, so there went about half of our pay "raise" or any of the 2% match on the 401k.

Reserve pilots losing 3.5 hour daily pay is an average 20% pay cut.

Reserve pilots losing their hard days off and turning them into "floating" days just screwed every pilot on reserve and ever new-hire to come through the door. I'm not doing that to our CA's on reserve for 2+ years, nor am I doing that to our new-hires.


I don't care if it's bad timing or not. Put something out like this and someone's going to hang. If they don't put new people in, they can all hang together.

Which is worse? Having an MEC and NC that will bring us a sh*t sandwich again, or starting over again with a group that's more hard-line and taking a delay in negotiations to do it?

I don't agree that it "sends a bad signal to management". I believe it sends a very clear "We're not going to take it, and we'll string up anyone that tries it again" message.

Let's look at it another way...

The Company pulls the strings, we get a TA because the Company decides they wanted(?) or needed(?) one now, figured we'd flush this one and live with what we've got while they drag it out another 2 years. Guaranteed 2 year extention on the rates. Guaranteed? Yep, cause we showed 'em back in December that we have no balls, and this Union would not take it further than Mediation.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Is the NPA site down? I can't get on it...

 

[Lear70]

No, it's up.

www.npa-atl.org

Nothing new, just a copy of the letter from AP.

 

[Afterprop]

Say Again, OVER

This one's a no brainer . . . my vote's already determined. What was one good thing about this TA, I forgot -- O there wasn't one . . .

Might be time to put on that freight dawg hat and git 'er dun.

:angryfire

 

[AFcitrus]

Just talked to NPA office and asked when the "bullets" would be put on webpage. The Admin. Ass. said they were working on it right now and it would be up by the end of the day. She also said pay scales would be posted in addition to "bullets".

If even 10% of what I'm hearing is true then it's not just a NO but HELL FREAKIN' NO.

And oh, by the way, I'm hearing it was a unamimous vote (6-0). I talked to a Dom. Rep. on Monday and he said the TA looked really bad for pilots, shook his head in the negative and sighed. Then he goes out and votes yes.

IF it is really bad, there had better be a recall vote for the entire BOD and a an all new NC. I am starting to wonder if we have all been "hoodwinked" by our leadership.

 

[newnan]

AF could we post that reps name on BD's site so that everyone can see who thought so little of it and still voted for it?

 

[EMBATP]

so where do we get the big NO stickers printed up....i want to do like the union says and have my bag tags and stickers to show my unity

fair firm focused

 

[Lowrider717]

Just talked to NPA office and asked when the "bullets" would be put on webpage. The Admin. Ass. said they were working on it right now and it would be up by the end of the day. She also said pay scales would be posted in addition to "bullets".

If even 10% of what I'm hearing is true then it's not just a NO but HELL FREAKIN' NO.

And oh, by the way, I'm hearing it was a unamimous vote (6-0). I talked to a Dom. Rep. on Monday and he said the TA looked really bad for pilots, shook his head in the negative and sighed. Then he goes out and votes yes.

IF it is really bad, there had better be a recall vote for the entire BOD and a an all new NC. I am starting to wonder if we have all been "hoodwinked" by our leadership.

The only people hoodwinked will be the ones who vote YES. (alledgedly)

 

[gt1900]

Top pay at year 15 is over $180 on the 4th year of the contract... Year 12 is around 167..... Top fo pay is around $100/hr at year 15 and 3rd year pay is $68 once the contract is signed.. 12.5% retirment...

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Top pay at year 15 is over $180 on the 4th year of the contract... Year 12 is around 167..... Top fo pay is around $100/hr at year 15 and 3rd year pay is $68 once the contract is signed.. 12.5% retirment...

Another reason I will vote NO. I don't want to go to 15 year pay. Keep it at 12 and just keep increasing the top end contract after contract. that actually will cost company more as more and more people wil reach 12 year mark and get top pay.

If we pass 15 what's next? 20? then 25? All they're doing is dividing the X amount of money that pilots will get by higher number of years diluting our pay.

 

[EMBATP]

as stated in another thread....work rules scope and language....

 

[Lear70]

Top pay at year 15 is over $180 on the 4th year of the contract... Year 12 is around 167..... Top fo pay is around $100/hr at year 15 and 3rd year pay is $68 once the contract is signed.. 12.5% retirment...

Don't tell me you're even CONSIDERING voting yes for this P.O.S.

That 3rd year F/O pay you quoted SHOULD be 2nd year F/O pay.
$100 an hour should occur around year 10 F/O.

Not to mention the pay CUT we're going to take from losing door-close-to-door-open, the 4 hour min day (which makes up about 10% every MONTH looking back over the last year), and let's not forget the reserve section.

What about requiring a doctor's note for just about every sick call? You think that's OK? What happens if you're sick over a weekend or holiday and your regular doctor's office is closed. No provision for the company to reimburse you that $50 or $100 copay for an E.R. visit to get a "doctor's note".

Oh yeah, I forgot,,, SCOPE? You think that's OK to lose 100 seat jets configured for business class with less than 100 seats? Not to mention the move of the 737-800's and A320's into the "Small Narrow Body class" which is a 13% pay CUT if we convert our -700 options and/or acquire/merge with a carrier who has A320's.

What makes this T.A. even VAGUELY worth voting for?

Anyone?

Current book and continue to negotiate = more money in pocket, better QOL, and job protection.

Anything less is PURE STUPIDITY!!!

Flame away...

 

[gt1900]

Lear.. I haven't said I'm voting for anything... But, isn't the scope for 88 seats or less? I havent even got a chance to look at the entire thing, but trust me, I will, and Im thinking a "no" vote is in order... My point was simply, that it looks to be better than what the rumors were saying.. Simple as that.. There is a tone of chitty things, but I don't think anyone was expecting 180+ hr, even though it happens at year 15.. Year 12 would put the company in the ball park..

 

[Lear70]

Lear.. I haven't said I'm voting for anything... But, isn't the scope for 88 seats or less? I havent even got a chance to look at the entire thing, but trust me, I will, and Im thinking a "no" vote is in order... My point was simply, that it looks to be better than what the rumors were saying.. Simple as that.. There is a tone of chitty things, but I don't think anyone was expecting 180+ hr, even though it happens at year 15.. Year 12 would put the company in the ball park..

*whew!* Good... you scared me there for a second.

I think you're right, $180/hr at Year 12 would be in the ballpark, with no 15-year pay scale in either seat.

I haven't seen the Scope section in its entirety, only a confirmation that the language doesn't protect against 90- or 100- seat jets reconfigured for business class service which is an immediate NO vote for me. Like I've said before, that could scope a large portion of us right out of a job or at least into stagnation of growth for several years when they decide to replace the 717 fleet with Embraers.

The addition of new planes doesn't really help either with the replacement of MEH aircraft. That carrot is way too little to make any real difference.

The flight attendants are going to absolutely LOVE us if we sign for aircraft movement to door-open... The summer of love is here,,,

 

[skystud25]

Need to be very careful. Skywest is lurking behind the contract door and waiting for the call. They've already negotiated to fly for Midwest and you can bet AirTran has spoken with them about future possibilities.
I hope everyone will look at Delta and see that a 70 seat RJ can and will take your job. Let's make em' all AirTran pilots.

...makes me recall the thread on the regional board about SKW and their supposed interest in the CRJ-1000. I bet with a business class that would be just under 100 seats...Wouldn't take many to replace the 717 altogether...

 

[USARET]

no it's the worst possible time to do that.

The Union has caved on this issue and several others since Christmas. I think they have satisfactorily demonstrated that their talents have been exceeded. The last thing we need are more concessionary actions by the current administration. The time has certainly come.

 

[gt1900]

First off... After hearing more, Its gonna be a "no" vote for me.. Lear, there is somthing more to the scope than just 88 seats or less, but I wasn't really listening to the union guy when he was explaining.. Second, I have to call with a doctors note because I ate bad food and now have the chits.. YGTBFKM........ Plus, the 4hr a day guarantee is gone?? I can see it now, how many 1 leg days are we gonna have when we sit until 4 in the afternnon and then fly from MEM to ATL.. B.S....Now, there is a couple things that aren't too bad.. Top out pay at 180+hr is good, if it were for 12 year pay.. I think $100hr for FO's is pretty good as well, at 12 years.. 12.5% for the B-fund is in the right direction too.. But, the union really did botch this, or, maybe they played it brilliantly... Maybe, if our pilot group turns it down with an 80%+ NO vote than we can actually get a contract that works...

 

[bladeusa]

but.. how many 15 year capts and 12 year fo's do we have?
chirp.. chirp.. chirp..
exactly.

 

[Lear70]

OK... here we go.

Year Capt ... Current ..... New ...... % Increase

1st ........... $ 71.21 .... $ 91.63 ......... 29% (no CA's currently on 1st year pay)
2nd .......... $101.70 .... $115.42 ........ 13% (no CA's currently on 2nd year pay)
3rd .......... $106.30 .... $119.82 ......... 13%
4th .......... $112.27 .... $124.39 ......... 11%
5th .......... $120.01 .... $129.13 ......... 8%
6th .......... $123.50 .... $134.05 ......... 9%
7th .......... $127.15 .... $138.83 ......... 9%
8th .......... $131.87 .... $142.69 ......... 8%
9th .......... $136.85 .... $146.97 ......... 7%
10th ........ $144.00 .... $151.38 ......... 5%
11th ........ $147.33 .... $155.92 ......... 6%
12th ........ $152.57 .... $160.60 ......... 5%
13th ........ $152.57 .... $165.41 ......... 8%
14th ........ $152.57 .... $170.38 ......... 12%
15th ........ $152.57 .... $175.49 ......... 15%

1.5% raises every year for COLA.

F/O data coming...

 

[ATLplt]

Some details are now up on the NPA site...

 

[gt1900]

Looks bad bad and getting worse..

 

[EMBATP]

pay scales are great but its what the check says on payday that really counts

work rules scope language merger stuff etc

 

[gearup5]

Anything greater than 50 seats on scope and this is a no vote.