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Airbus trepidation... convince me otherwise!

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Not to sound like a nerd, but if you take a joystick and Microsoft Flight Simulator, controlling the Airbus behaves pretty much the same way. You are commanding rate of pitch and roll rather than bank. I am not partial to the plane's philosophy but I do think it's the best for pilot comfort and it makes a long FT/DT trip go by much more painless.
 
However, in the Captain's favor was Alpha Max was not disabled. Thus, the airplane went into the woods wings
level at*****a flying angle of attack under control. The airplane did not stall; the airplane did not fall off on one wing
and the airplane did not impact the ground in an usual attitude - which, almost certainly, would have resulted in
more than three fatalities.

To this day, 23 years later, the Captain still blames Airbus and the engine manufacturer, claiming the engines failed to spool
up. Yup, and Buddy McBroom still blames the fuel gauges!!!!!

What's the moral of the story? 1) Airbus builds a fantastic airplane - but you have to read and understand the
AFM. If you're going to go fly an airplane that has CATIIIb autoland capability, I'd strongly suggest that you at least
read the Manual before your first attempt at flying one!!!!!!!

Questions for discussion: 1)*****How many members of*****RETUP know*****whether speed is "on the throttle" or
speed is "on the elevator?" If you don't know or you*****say, "WHAT?" or "HUH?" - *****you're in trouble - Airbus and Boeing!
2) Why do the throttles sometimes go to IDLE and airplane goes above the path on a VNAV PATH descent?

Thanks for your time, guys. And, rather than knock Airbus, I'd recommend a little humility. And, I should also add that
the Airbus uses "dissimilar redundancy" in the engineering design of its cockpit. The Captain's side of the cockpit
uses the equivalent of a Windows computer running on Intel chips and the F/O's side uses an Apple computer
running on the old Motorola or IBM chips. Also different and independent design teams wrote the flight control laws and the ELAC
(elevator and aileron computer) programs and the SEC (spoiler/elevator) computer laws. This was done to prevent a design error from "carrying
over" to the other side of the cockpit.

The Airbus and Boeing airplanes are both outstanding, but comparing them is a fruitless exercise. Which is "better?" a Ford or a Chevy?
Which is "better?" a 707 or a DC-8? Which is "better?" an asphalt road or a concrete road?

And I'll get on my soapbox for a minute here: When I was an A320 LCA, not only did I get ENOTES from pilots I'd never met and from
out-of-domicile places (LAX, SFO and SEA) asking me to do their IOES, but I only had one IOE failure - a A320 Captain with a severe
attitude problem. He blamed everything on the airplane. Unbelievably, he was former Navy F-8 pilot. Knowing how to fly was not
his problem; accepting his own refusal to learn/know the FMAs was. He went back to TK and whether he ate his humble pie or not, I don't
know as I went to the B777 right afterwards. And I had numerous pilots sign the matting of my retiring photo: "Thanks for the great IOE!"
Not too many pilots get that!!!! Off my soapbox.
 
For full disclosure I did not write preceding posts. It was sent to me by a friend. I believe it is authored by a UAL check pilot. I have spent 7 years on the plane and it was a very insightful and educational piece. Hope you enjoy it, and the plane as much as I (did) as I am now on the 75/76:(
 
It seems to me that the people always complaining about Airbus are the ones that have no experience with it. They see the video of the plane going into the trees and think it was computer error, but the pilot was something like 200 feet lower than planned. The jet just wouldn't allow him to stall it into the ground as he was trying to pull up. The bus is a different animal for sure, but I enjoyed my time on it. And yes you can turn off all the automation and fly it like any other airplane. That being said, the tricky things are crosswind landings and the FMS is a little different than other planes. I like the autothrust system and not having to trim all the time. And I really like the ECAM a lot. In an abnormal you just do what it says on the screen. I wish the 757/767 had some of the features of the bus. I miss the table too.
 
MACDU... that's pretty spot on... i'm on the 330 and i dig it... one of the biggest things told to me with this plane is to understand the FMA... cross check it... and with regards to the MCDU i was told "garbage in, garbage out"...
my biggest struggle was learning the MCDU, flying the plane was great with the sidestick... but it all comes together and is great to fly... especially on those long flts...
 
aa73,

If you want to see what the other pilot is doing with his sidestick, just look at your ADI. There is a small black square that is a cursor for the sidestick. When a sidestick is displaced, the cursor will show it on the display.

Everyone gets wrapped up about the way the Airbus "thinks" and flys. The reality is it isn't any different from any other glass airplane. The big one that gets everyone is the term "Managed". Managed is just the French way of saying that the airplane is flying FMS information. That could be an FMS speed profile, FMS VNAV profile, or an FMS RNAV profile.

Don't want to fly FMS speeds. Pull the speed knob. Now the plane maintains whatever speed you select with the knob on the panel. Still don't like it... Move the thrust levers to match the carrots indicating current power, then mash the disconnect buttons. Viola... you have direct control of engine thrust via the thrust levers and you can fly it like any other airplane.

Same process works for VNAV stuff as well. Don't like the way the FMS is doing it. Pull the knob and descend in Vspeed. Don't like Vspeed... flip the toggle and come down a path mode. Want to be real lazy... pull the knob and get Flight Idle Open Descent. The engines will roll back to idle and the airplane will pitch to hold airspeed. It won't honor FMS restrictions, but it will capture back up at the altitude selected in the window. Automation screwing you? Go to a different level of automation that you understand. It is that simple.

The bus is simply the most comfortable, most boring airplane I've ever flown. Because of the autotrim, hand flying is just as boring as watching the autopilot fly. Without the autopilot on... take your hand off the stick, wipe 50 knots off of it, and sit and watch as the airplane holds altitude perfectly while bleeding airspeed. You can even do that trick in a 30 degree bank. Set the bank, take your hand off, slow the airplane down 50 knots... and the airplane will hold altitude, bank, and settle perfectly on speed while you do nothing but watch. That being said... you will find the bus is extremely nimble to fly. Rolls very crisply and when moving the thrust by hand, the engines actually spool pretty quick.

I will give you... system logic is FUBAR'ed! The 1st time you read the checklist for a RADAR ALT 2 fault... you will be amazed, dumbfounded, and contemplate bidding a new piece of equipment. 1st time I saw it... the Captain says... well pull out the checklist for it. I thought he was kidding. He wasn't!
 
aa73,

If you want to see what the other pilot is doing with his sidestick, just look at your ADI. There is a small black square that is a cursor for the sidestick. When a sidestick is displaced, the cursor will show it on the display.

This doesn't happen in the Airbus I fly, not in flight at least. J32driver does make a good point though that the absence of thrust lever and side stick movement is a non-issue. I think it has only been made an issue by non-airbus pilots that don't understand what they have observed from the jumpseat.
 
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The only thing you should be afraid of is the new "negotiated" pay scales on the A319 at AA. Especially the new B-scale FOs (probably regional pay level). :eek::bawling: :angryfire:mad:

HOLD THE LINE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Airbus pilots I speak to love the airplane. I know a few pilots at Delta who claim they have no interest leaving the Airbus fleet (from A319 to the A330 later).
 
He blamed everything on the airplane. Unbelievably, he was former Navy F-8 pilot. Knowing how to fly was not
his problem; accepting his own refusal to learn/know the FMAs was. .
I was wondering how long it would take to blame the military.
 
Some sad airbus outcomes have resulted from pilots not resorting to "old school" and pushing the throttles all the way forward. I was taught the airbus way of setting managed speed etc. and think it can lure you into not being as aware of what is going on with power as a pilot should be. I often take over with vert speed at 1000 above/below just to stay in the piloting game, hate the open descent, level off, 1980s era computers get 10 knots slow then realize full power is needed. Racing up/down to level off often triggers TCAS warnings needlessly anyway.
 
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I've only flown Boeing, but I'll pass on what a chief pilot said when I complained about the prospect of going to the Bus. He said, "once I get you in the Bus you'll never want to fly a Boeing again." I have a lot of respect for him and hope he's right.
 
This doesn't happen in the Airbus I fly, not in flight at least.

It has been 4 years since I was on the airplane, I may not remember correctly on the cursor. I thought it was there in flight, but you just never noticed it because it never moved. Sorry If I gave bad info.
 
Which if he had full manual control of the motors he would have flown back around and landed it on the runway.

Negative. Read the accident report; those motors were so destroyed that all he would have accomplished with a cable to the FCU would have been cooking the hot sections with little to no increase in thrust.

AA73, I've got a year on the jet after 8 years of flying various Embraers. I promise once you get used to it, you'll love it. Do you feel like a pilot as much without large moving parts and force feedback? No, honestly. IMHO however, it's still tons of fun to turn off AP/FD and the authothrust and point it where you want it to go. Did that today coming down the CAMRN arrival on a beautiful breezy day at JFK and had a blast driving it all the way to 31R like an old Baron. (For my fellow Blue peeps, I had one of the rare Captains whom encourages that sort of thing rather than cringing at it :)). Also, I do much better controlling the balloon when Flaps 2 comes out than Fifi does!

I noticed on the "other board" that you asked about trim with no rocker switch, and I don't think anyone got around to answering that. Pitch trim is with a nice wheel right next to the thrust levers. You'll have to be in a seriously degraded flight computer mode to use that anywhere other than the sim, or setting the stab before takeoff.
 
To explain the Airbus A320 Habsheim (A320 into the woods) accident, again:

The accident airplane was in NORMAL flight control law. NORMAl law is "normal;" there's no flight control law
"better" than NORMAL - no super-normal, no mega-normal, etc. In NORMAL law, you have three (3) axis control
and the following flight envelope protections: - load factor limitation; - pitch attitude protection; - high angle of
attack protection; - high speed protection, and - bank angle protection.

NORMAL law has both a Ground and a Flight mode. I'll skip the Ground mode discussion, but the Flight mode
is active from lift-off until Flare mode engages during landing at 50 feet RA.

NORMAL law - Pitch: The Normal flight mode is load factor demand law with automatic (pitch) trim and full
flight envelope protection that maintains a 1g load with the sidestick at neutral and the wings level. When using
the sidestick, the elevator and stabilizer trim achieve a load factor proportional to sidestick deflection. Pitch trim
is automatic with or without the autopilot engaged. (And the elevator trim wheel DOES move as the stab trims - my
comment!)

Automatic pitch trim is inhibited under the following conditions:

- Radio altitude (RA) is below 50 ft (100 ft with autopilot engaged)
- Load factor less than 0.5g
- High speed/Mach protection is active
- 33 deg bank exceeded
- Load factor greater than +1.25g (nose up trim inhibited)
- During manual trim (obviously!)

Load Factor Limitation:
- Flaps Retracted: +2.5g to -1.0g
-Flaps Extended: +2.0g to 0.0g

Pitch Attitude Protection:
The airplane's pitch attitude is protected, as follows:
- 30 deg nose up with Flaps (position) 0 to (position) 3,
**********progeressively reduced to 25 deg at low speed;
- 25 deg nose up with Flaps Full (progessively reduced to
**********20 deg at low speed;
- 15 deg nose down

The flight director bars are removed when pitch exceeds 25 deg up
or 13 deg down.

High Angle of Attack Protection: (In this discussion, I will substitute the symbol "@"
in place of the Greek letter for "alpha," which my keyboard doesn't have - or I can't find.

The alpha protection provided by Normal Law comprises three (3) angle of attack
functions. They are: (1) alpha protection (@ prot) alpha floor (@ floor) and alpha maximum
(@ max). The associated V speeds, V@ prot. V@ floor and V@ max vary with airplane weight
and configuration.

In pitch normal law, the elevator control changes from normal mode to a protection mode when the
angle of attack is greater than @ prot. When this occurs, the autopilot disconnects, the speed brakes
retract and the angle of attack is proportional to sidestick deflection. In the @ prot range, from @ prot*****
to @ max, the side stick demands an angle of attack directly; however, @ max cannot be exceeded even
if the sidestick is pulled and held fully back against the mechanical stop. If the sidestick is released,
the angle of attack returns to and maintains @ prot. This function, which provides protection against
stall and windshear has priority overcall other protections. On take-off, @ prot is equal to @ max for
5 seconds. If angle of attack protection is active, the sidestick must be pushed forward to return to the
normal mode.

The @ floor protection, which occurs at a predetermined angle of attack between @ prot and @ max, engages
the autothrottle system. TO/GA thrust is provided regardless of throttle position. The @ floor function *****is NOT
available in the landing configuration below 100 ft RA! (Any guesses why??????????)

NOTE: Alpha Floor is ONLY available in NORMAL (flight control) Law.

I provide the above explanations/descriptions so that you can't accuse me of editing out important information
about the Airbus' Normal flight control laws. *****:))

CAUTION: Alpha Floor protection is only available in NORMAL Law.

A Low Energy Warnibg is triggered during deceleration before Alpha Floor ir reached. (The delays between Low
Energy Warning and Alpha Floor activation depends on deceleration rate.) "SPEED, SPEED, SPEED"
is repeated every 5 seconds to indicate airplane energy is lower than a threshold under which to recover a positive
flight path angle though pitch control; THRUST must be INCREASED! The low energy warning is computed by the
FACs (Flight Augmentation Computers), based on airplane configuration Flaps [position] (2, 3 or Full), airspeed
deceleration rate and flight path angle.

The Low Energy Warning is inhibited:
- When TO/GA is selected
- Below 100 ft RA and above 2,000 ft RA
- When Alpha Floor or a GPWS alert is triggered
- In ALTERNATE or DIRECT law
- If both RAs are failed
- At Flaps 1 or UP

- - -*****

The Captain of the Habsheim accident airplane: 1) did not receive Company or (French) FAA approval
to conduct the maneuver; 2) did not brief the F/O; 3) it was a revenue flight; passengers were on board;
4) had the airplane in the landing configuration; 5) was below 100 ft RA, thus Alpha Floor was disabled),
6) Low Energy Warning was also disabled.

I'm assuming that either the autothrottles were not engaged or the Mode Control Panel speed had been
manually dialed down to a normal Vapp speed. In any event, the engines were at relatively low thrust and
I'm sure the Captain was thinking, during*****the approach/low altitude fly-by, that "any second now the throttles
will go to TO/GA," I'll just pull gently back on the sidestick and the airplane will perform a nice go-around
maneuver. That did not happen as both Alpha Floor and the Low Energy Warning had been (inadvertently/
unknowingly) disabled. I think the Captain pushed the throttles up; but it was too late. The flight path angle
never became positive.

OK. Thanks for listing the multitude of caveats on an Airbus go-around.

Boeing Go-Around:

Push throttles forward, pull yoke back.

The Airbus is much more quiet and comfortable than a boeing and those qualities lead us try to justify away why the throttles (ehem, thrust levers) were designed not to move. The ergo engineers did awesome. The flight control law engineers went overboard and were worried about justifying their existence.

So says the Turtle.
 
The A320 has basically the same motors as the 737NG. So I don't think the Sully/engine/Airbus sucks argument holds much water. (No pun intended) :)
 
The A320 has basically the same motors as the 737NG. So I don't think the Sully/engine/Airbus sucks argument holds much water. (No pun intended) :)
I don't think anyone has spoken out against the Airbus engines.

I think you will find that all the derogatory comments about Airbus are the systems that airbus puts in place that distance the pilot from the plane. And there is a lot of truth behind the emotion.
 
Just got done with A320 initial Qual (USairways West) coming off the 737, easiest school I've ever been through. Gonna love this bird!!!!!
 

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