Air midwest crashes into hangar @ CLT??

[SammyG]

I'm finding it very hard to want to watch the news anymore.

Gees.

Thoughts and prayers for those who lost their lives today in Charlotte and Turkey.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Timebuilder, you're right. But the first sentence not in quoatation marks is the journalist's reaffirmation of what the talking head said - given as if it were FACT.

That's not forgiveable.

 

[azpilot]

"The safety of regional airlines has gotten extremely good over the last few years since the new rules," Stempler said.

Still, smaller or older planes generally aren't as safe as larger, newer ones – and often the crews aren't as experienced.

"We recommend to our members that the larger the aircraft, the better," said Stempler. "But sometimes you don't have that choice."

Freedom flies big planes but a lot of the crews have less experience than those flying the 1900's. I doubt they will print that.

I am sorry for the crew and the family members of those involved. I didn't know them but a friend of mine did. Don't expect a lot from the media. I get the basic details and then wait to hear from the NTSB.

God Speed,
AZPilot

 

[Timebuilder]

I hear you, but think about it.

Although not chisled in stone, it's hard to find issue with the smaller-older, versus newer-larger argument. A smaller, older aircraft, with a crew with fewer hours of flying (to accrue experience) is a difficult sell to most people when compared to a crew with many years of experience, flying a younger plane with redundant systems and state of the art automation and avionics.

I don't know the source of the research cited, but this afternoon some stats were shown comparing various types of commercial flying, with commuters having one accident in 100,000 takeoffs, and transport jets having one per 500,000 takeoffs. If that is a FACT, it is a d*&ning one.

So, if the data is correct, the journalist is withing his ethical imperative to distill such a conclusion for the passive news public. We may not like that conclusion, and in fact it may be due to the flying that happened before the regs were revised. The news channels were also featuring folks who said that commuter flying was "just as safe" as a large airliner.

I don't think I'd agree with that statement, either.

 

[V-1]

Fox News

Isn't this a perfect example of an oxymoron?

I am disgusted when I walk through the pilot's lounge at work and notice fellow crewmembers watching this network. Let's see, the same network we trusted to bring us "Married With Children", "Celebrity Boxing", "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire", etc. now wants to bring news reporting into our homes? Let's all rush to welcome them.

Although Mr. O'Brien is likely much less experienced than the average "regional", "commuter", "express", or "connection" pilot, I wonder if he informs his passengers of this.

I'd trade flashing "LIVE" symbols for a short delay to ensure accurate reporting. Since the advent of 24 hour cable news, it's become "speak first, speculate second, obtain facts third". Why do we equate the word "LIVE" with the word "IMPORTANT"? Just because it's covered "LIVE" doesn't mean it's a story we should watch.

That's my opinion about the media coverage. I am sympathetic to the families and friends of those involved. Thanks to those who've posted who knew members of the crew. It helps the rest of us feel a little closer to those involved in the tragedy.

 

[Beantown]

Before today, does anyone know when was the last fatal commuter turboprop flight? I can't think of one in the last three or four years. In that time, I can think of 4 or 5 major airline fatal crashes. Why is this never talked about????????? -Bean

 

[JumpJetter]

Not to flame, but the press is reporting some valid statistics: Check it out at
http://www.safe-skies.com/safety_by_the_numbers.htm

I hope the formatting comes out ok.
----------------------------------

18 Year Fatal Accident Rates (1982-1999)
READ IN THREE COLUMNS

PER 100,000 hrs || PER Million Miles || PER 100,000 Departures

Major
Airlines
.0299 || .00074 || .0432

Commuter
Airlines
.3239 || .0182 || .209

General
Aviation
1.651 || No data || No data


Comparisons (Ratios) of Accident Rates From Table Above:

Per 100,000 Hours
- Commuters to Major Airlines: 10.8 to 1

- General Aviation to Major Airlines: 55.1 to 1

- General Aviation to Commuters: 5.1 to 1

Per Million Miles
- Commuters to Major Airlines 24.6 to 1

Per 100,000 Departures
- Commuters to Major Airlines 4.8 to 1

 

[JumpJetter]

"Before today, does anyone know when was the last fatal commuter turboprop flight? I can't think of one in the last three or four years. In that time, I can think of 4 or 5 major airline fatal crashes. Why is this never talked about?????????"

I don't know how to do that cool quote thing!!

Date: 01/09/1997
Location: IDA, MI
Airline: COMAIR
Aircraft: EMBRAER 120
Fatalities: 26
Survivors: 0

Source:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxftl35.htm

 

[Timebuilder]

Just because it's covered "LIVE" doesn't mean it's a story we should watch.

True.

You have to remember that the common twenty to fifty year old was raised on video games and instant gratification. As Alvin Toffler described in Future Shock, we are driven in a MacLuhan-esq quest for the new, the shiny, the leading edge, the freshest fresh, and the whitest whites. Seeing something "LIVE" is a fascination all its own, like a California car chase. In some ways, the medium IS the message.

I can't condemn Fox for attempting to do something new in TV news, despite being the network that brought us Al Bundy. Apparently, they have found an audience that has tired of Jennings and friends.

I noted today (a day off for me) that ALL of the news outlets had this repetitive "LIVE" coverage.

The MOST fascinating part of the coverage happened once the fire was completely extinguished. Then, all of the news outlets went back to the tape of the wreckage with the billowing SMOKE, recorded over an hour earlier!

 

[HawkerF/O]

HHhmm...

Raytheon lists the One Engine Inoperative (OEI) rate of climb with flaps and gear retracted, and Autofeather as 670 fpm... I find it VERY hard to believe it will do better one engine inoperative with the gear hanging out and the dead engine windmilling...

Falcon Capt............Arent the figures that you gave from Raytheon predicated on a standard day at MGTOW with the LH engine inop? I think that the conditions today were quite a bit better, and would certainly give better #s than the ones from their website. I would imagine that they did not have a full bag of gas, and I would guess 10% of them were coming back to Charlotte tonight, and maybe another 20% were staying in Greer, SC for the night, so not a whole lot of baggage. So, with one engine out, the gear out, and T/O flaps, I bet with today's conditions, 1000FPM would not be out of reach, if they did in fact loose an engine...Your thoughts? BTW, that 900EX is one bad dude!!!!

 

[Dieterly]

Spent many nights in Mesas 1900's doing training, I can tell you are not getting 1000'/min with a prop windmilling and the gear hanging, at least not in a brand new D-model.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: crash

hey lets call john edwards ......-

LrBob,

Your post shows exceptionally poor taste. You should be ashamed for your crass sense of humor. I would advise that you remove the post and think before you type next time.

 

[skydash]

1900 crash

Terrible..Terrible..Terrible.
Who knows?????
First flight of the day..Still a little tired..Just wanting to get that first leg going...Who hasn't been there?
IF she did loose the left one on takeoff,all you guys and girls know how fast stuff happens. In a rush you might do something wrong accidently,like step on the wrong rudder pedal.Who hasn't been a little confused as to which engine was lost initially on failure?? God knows I have in a simulator,especially when I wasn't expecting it.
BUT I say again,what happened is all speculation at this point. I take this flight about 3 to 4 times a month.......
God bless all who perished and their families.

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Capt............Arent the figures that you gave from Raytheon predicated on a standard day at MGTOW with the LH engine inop? I think that the conditions today were quite a bit better, and would certainly give better #s than the ones from their website. I would imagine that they did not have a full bag of gas, and I would guess 10% of them were coming back to Charlotte tonight, and maybe another 20% were staying in Greer, SC for the night, so not a whole lot of baggage. So, with one engine out, the gear out, and T/O flaps, I bet with today's conditions, 1000FPM would not be out of reach, if they did in fact loose an engine...Your thoughts? BTW, that 900EX is one bad dude!!!!

Well with 19 pax on board I am guessing they were probably pretty close to MGTOW... Using Raytheon's numbers below:

BOW: 10,685 lbs. (Is this even a realistic BOW for a D model? this number is from the Mfg.)
19 Pax: 3,800 lbs. (Yeah I know airlines can use 170 lbs/pax, but lets be realistic)
Baggage: 600 lbs. (Very light for 19 pax by any measure)
Fuel: that only leaves 2,035 lbs. left for fuel... Not sure what kind of fuel load they would have taken for this trip, but I can't imagine it was much less than this amount.

Lets keep in mind that gear hanging out is a huge performance penalty (although it helps to slightly reduce Vmc due to the lowered CG and the directional stability extended gear adds)

Also another huge performance penalty would be the windmilling prop (I am NOT speculating that is what happened here, I am merely using the example from the post above which mentioned with gear down and prop windmilling the 1900 will climb at better than 1000 FPM)

Charlotte was very near ISA temp this morning (low 50°'s, ISA being 58°F at KCLT) and they are 749 ft MSL, so not at sea level either

I think in a training situation (no pax, fairly light on fuel) the 1900D would probably do 1,000 FPM with gear down and one windmilling... but I doubt under these conditions it could do anywhere near that kind of performance... My guess based on the numbers provided by Raytheon, with the gear up and autofeather working they would have been lucky to get 600 FPM...

*************************************
The above conjecture is not meant to speculate on the cause of todays unfortunate crash, it is merely meant as a discussion of aircraft performance in a non-standard operation (OEI).

My heart and thoughts go out to the families of the crew and passengers of Air Midwest Flight 5481...

Falcon Capt.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Statistics are all in the details

You have to look at all the factors involved with statistics before you decide what they truly mean and the media rarely does that. It's like all of the harping about the avg. hours flown by UA crews versus SWA over the last year when, SWA didn't park 75 a/c and crews, shrink ASM's, and isn't an international airline with augmentation. Unless something has been changed recently, the stats for commuter airplane accidents include alot of stuff that most pilots typically wouldn't associate with commuter flying. Stuff like charter's and Air Taxi's in places like AS. I doubt the major US airlines would like it if the stats included all of the global airlines! Additionally if you going to compare regional vs. major accident statistics a better metric would be accidents per cycle instead of accident's per xx hours. The average stage length is much greater for the majors than the regionals which skews the stats. Sure the gap is closing with some SJ flights, but not nearly enough to make a dent on the stats.