Air midwest crashes into hangar @ CLT??

[Beantown]

Before today, does anyone know when was the last fatal commuter turboprop flight? I can't think of one in the last three or four years. In that time, I can think of 4 or 5 major airline fatal crashes. Why is this never talked about????????? -Bean

 

[JumpJetter]

Not to flame, but the press is reporting some valid statistics: Check it out at
http://www.safe-skies.com/safety_by_the_numbers.htm

I hope the formatting comes out ok.
----------------------------------

18 Year Fatal Accident Rates (1982-1999)
READ IN THREE COLUMNS

PER 100,000 hrs || PER Million Miles || PER 100,000 Departures

Major
Airlines
.0299 || .00074 || .0432

Commuter
Airlines
.3239 || .0182 || .209

General
Aviation
1.651 || No data || No data


Comparisons (Ratios) of Accident Rates From Table Above:

Per 100,000 Hours
- Commuters to Major Airlines: 10.8 to 1

- General Aviation to Major Airlines: 55.1 to 1

- General Aviation to Commuters: 5.1 to 1

Per Million Miles
- Commuters to Major Airlines 24.6 to 1

Per 100,000 Departures
- Commuters to Major Airlines 4.8 to 1

 

[JumpJetter]

"Before today, does anyone know when was the last fatal commuter turboprop flight? I can't think of one in the last three or four years. In that time, I can think of 4 or 5 major airline fatal crashes. Why is this never talked about?????????"

I don't know how to do that cool quote thing!!

Date: 01/09/1997
Location: IDA, MI
Airline: COMAIR
Aircraft: EMBRAER 120
Fatalities: 26
Survivors: 0

Source:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxftl35.htm

 

[Timebuilder]

Just because it's covered "LIVE" doesn't mean it's a story we should watch.

True.

You have to remember that the common twenty to fifty year old was raised on video games and instant gratification. As Alvin Toffler described in Future Shock, we are driven in a MacLuhan-esq quest for the new, the shiny, the leading edge, the freshest fresh, and the whitest whites. Seeing something "LIVE" is a fascination all its own, like a California car chase. In some ways, the medium IS the message.

I can't condemn Fox for attempting to do something new in TV news, despite being the network that brought us Al Bundy. Apparently, they have found an audience that has tired of Jennings and friends.

I noted today (a day off for me) that ALL of the news outlets had this repetitive "LIVE" coverage.

The MOST fascinating part of the coverage happened once the fire was completely extinguished. Then, all of the news outlets went back to the tape of the wreckage with the billowing SMOKE, recorded over an hour earlier!

 

[HawkerF/O]

HHhmm...

Raytheon lists the One Engine Inoperative (OEI) rate of climb with flaps and gear retracted, and Autofeather as 670 fpm... I find it VERY hard to believe it will do better one engine inoperative with the gear hanging out and the dead engine windmilling...

Falcon Capt............Arent the figures that you gave from Raytheon predicated on a standard day at MGTOW with the LH engine inop? I think that the conditions today were quite a bit better, and would certainly give better #s than the ones from their website. I would imagine that they did not have a full bag of gas, and I would guess 10% of them were coming back to Charlotte tonight, and maybe another 20% were staying in Greer, SC for the night, so not a whole lot of baggage. So, with one engine out, the gear out, and T/O flaps, I bet with today's conditions, 1000FPM would not be out of reach, if they did in fact loose an engine...Your thoughts? BTW, that 900EX is one bad dude!!!!

 

[Dieterly]

Spent many nights in Mesas 1900's doing training, I can tell you are not getting 1000'/min with a prop windmilling and the gear hanging, at least not in a brand new D-model.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: crash

hey lets call john edwards ......-

LrBob,

Your post shows exceptionally poor taste. You should be ashamed for your crass sense of humor. I would advise that you remove the post and think before you type next time.

 

[skydash]

1900 crash

Terrible..Terrible..Terrible.
Who knows?????
First flight of the day..Still a little tired..Just wanting to get that first leg going...Who hasn't been there?
IF she did loose the left one on takeoff,all you guys and girls know how fast stuff happens. In a rush you might do something wrong accidently,like step on the wrong rudder pedal.Who hasn't been a little confused as to which engine was lost initially on failure?? God knows I have in a simulator,especially when I wasn't expecting it.
BUT I say again,what happened is all speculation at this point. I take this flight about 3 to 4 times a month.......
God bless all who perished and their families.

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Capt............Arent the figures that you gave from Raytheon predicated on a standard day at MGTOW with the LH engine inop? I think that the conditions today were quite a bit better, and would certainly give better #s than the ones from their website. I would imagine that they did not have a full bag of gas, and I would guess 10% of them were coming back to Charlotte tonight, and maybe another 20% were staying in Greer, SC for the night, so not a whole lot of baggage. So, with one engine out, the gear out, and T/O flaps, I bet with today's conditions, 1000FPM would not be out of reach, if they did in fact loose an engine...Your thoughts? BTW, that 900EX is one bad dude!!!!

Well with 19 pax on board I am guessing they were probably pretty close to MGTOW... Using Raytheon's numbers below:

BOW: 10,685 lbs. (Is this even a realistic BOW for a D model? this number is from the Mfg.)
19 Pax: 3,800 lbs. (Yeah I know airlines can use 170 lbs/pax, but lets be realistic)
Baggage: 600 lbs. (Very light for 19 pax by any measure)
Fuel: that only leaves 2,035 lbs. left for fuel... Not sure what kind of fuel load they would have taken for this trip, but I can't imagine it was much less than this amount.

Lets keep in mind that gear hanging out is a huge performance penalty (although it helps to slightly reduce Vmc due to the lowered CG and the directional stability extended gear adds)

Also another huge performance penalty would be the windmilling prop (I am NOT speculating that is what happened here, I am merely using the example from the post above which mentioned with gear down and prop windmilling the 1900 will climb at better than 1000 FPM)

Charlotte was very near ISA temp this morning (low 50°'s, ISA being 58°F at KCLT) and they are 749 ft MSL, so not at sea level either

I think in a training situation (no pax, fairly light on fuel) the 1900D would probably do 1,000 FPM with gear down and one windmilling... but I doubt under these conditions it could do anywhere near that kind of performance... My guess based on the numbers provided by Raytheon, with the gear up and autofeather working they would have been lucky to get 600 FPM...

*************************************
The above conjecture is not meant to speculate on the cause of todays unfortunate crash, it is merely meant as a discussion of aircraft performance in a non-standard operation (OEI).

My heart and thoughts go out to the families of the crew and passengers of Air Midwest Flight 5481...

Falcon Capt.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Statistics are all in the details

You have to look at all the factors involved with statistics before you decide what they truly mean and the media rarely does that. It's like all of the harping about the avg. hours flown by UA crews versus SWA over the last year when, SWA didn't park 75 a/c and crews, shrink ASM's, and isn't an international airline with augmentation. Unless something has been changed recently, the stats for commuter airplane accidents include alot of stuff that most pilots typically wouldn't associate with commuter flying. Stuff like charter's and Air Taxi's in places like AS. I doubt the major US airlines would like it if the stats included all of the global airlines! Additionally if you going to compare regional vs. major accident statistics a better metric would be accidents per cycle instead of accident's per xx hours. The average stage length is much greater for the majors than the regionals which skews the stats. Sure the gap is closing with some SJ flights, but not nearly enough to make a dent on the stats.

 

[LearLove]

Another Friend Gone...........

In a former life I knew Kate, I'll miss the good times we had hangin out in the "crack shack". She was just one of the crew and a good friend. She's the 9th friend I've lost in the industry and I'll tell you it never gets any easier.

 

[BoDEAN]

Fox News

Isn't this a perfect example of an oxymoron?

I am disgusted when I walk through the pilot's lounge at work and notice fellow crewmembers watching this network. Let's see, the same network we trusted to bring us "Married With Children", "Celebrity Boxing", "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire", etc. now wants to bring news reporting into our homes? Let's all rush to welcome them.

Although Mr. O'Brien is likely much less experienced than the average "regional", "commuter", "express", or "connection" pilot, I wonder if he informs his passengers of this.

That's my opinion about the media coverage. I am sympathetic to the families and friends of those involved. Thanks to those who've posted who knew members of the crew. It helps the rest of us feel a little closer to those involved in the tragedy.

** Liberal Alert ** ** Liberal Alert ** ** Liberal Alert **

I watch Fox News a lot. Best out there on the cable networks in my opinion, and the ratings. I am surprised MSNBC is still a network. They are falling in every rating out there.

 

[BoDEAN]

Re: Another Friend Gone...........

In a former life I knew Kate, I'll miss the good times we had hangin out in the "crack shack". She was just one of the crew and a good friend. She's the 9th friend I've lost in the industry and I'll tell you it never gets any easier.

We feel for you. I've lost a few friend in training accidents, and although the magnitude isn't as great has an airliner crashing, it still brings pain and sadness. The crew and passengers that were on board, their families will be in my prayers.

 

[jball2]

My family and I are praying for the families of all those on board. We will keep them in our thoughts.

As far as Miles goes, Atlanta (where CNN is), I would venture to say, has more Professional pilots per square mile than just about every other city in the US. You think they could find a REAL expert. Of course, as was said earlier, real experts won't speculate to drive the ratings up.

Secondly, I hope Jonathan Ornstien takes care of these folks' families. I have bad feelings about how the families of the pilots and passengers will be cared for given Mr. Ornstien's reputation for poor relations with labor and business. For this reason, all of their familes NEED our Prayers.

God Bless the folks of FLight 5481

" To fly west is a journey we must all take for our final check"
Author Unknown

 

[El Cid Av8or]

My prayers and condolences to the crew, passengers, and their friends and families.

 

[79%N1]

FLYING WEST

I hope there's a place, way up in the sky
Where pilots can go when they have to die.
A place where a guy could buy a cold beer
For a friend and a comrade whose memory is dear.
A place where no doctor or lawyer could tread,
Nor a management-type would e'ler be caught dead!
Just a quaint little place, kind of dark, full of smoke,
Where they like to sing loud, and love a good joke.
The kind of a place that a lady could go
And feel safe and secure by the men she would know.

There must be a place where old pilots go,
When their wings become heavy, when their airspeed gets low,
Where the whiskey is old, and the women are young,
And songs about flying and dying are sung.
Where you'd see all the fellows who'd 'flown west' before,
And they'd call out your name, as you came through the door,
Who would buy you a drink, if your thirst should be bad,
And relate to the others, "He was quite a good lad!"

And there, through the mist, you'd spot an old guy
You had not seen in years, though he'd taught you to fly.
He'd nod his old head, and grin ear to ear
And say, "Welcome, my Son, I'm proud that you're here!
For this is the place where true flyers come
When the battles are over, and the wars have been won.
They've come here at last, to be safe and alone,
From the government clerk, and the management clone;
Politicians and lawyers, the Feds, and the noise,
Where all hours are happy, and these good ol' boys
Can relax with a cool one, and a well deserved rest!
This is Heaven, my Son. You've passed your last test!"


— Captain Michael J. Larkin, TWA (Ret.), 'Air Line Pilot' magazine, February 1995

So long, Kate
So long, Jonathan

 

[Av8trxx]

"A terrrible loss. I will pray that they were prepared by their trust in Christ, and that their families are comforted." Amen to that....I was so worried it might have been one of my Air Midwest friends (Cindy Jacobs or Greg Stevens). My condolences to those who knew Katie & Johnathan.



As far as accidents go, this Jetstream crashed three years after Comair:

Date: 05/21/2000
Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
Airline: Executive Airlines
Aircraft: BAe Jetstream 3101
Registration: N16EJ
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 19:19
Details: The plane crashed into a heavily wood area as it was making a second approach to Wilkes-Barre/Scranton International Airport. Visibility was poor in wind, low clouds and light rain. While attempting the second approach, the pilot reported both engines had quit but restarted one of them before the plane crashed.

Date: 01/09/1997
Location: Ida, Michigan
Airline: Comair (Delta Connection)
Aircraft: Embraer EMB-120RT Brasilia
Registration: N265CA
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 29:29
Details: While on approach and attempting to land on runway 3R at Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport, in a snowstorm, the aircraft went into a steep dive and crashed into a field. The accident was caused by the FAA's failure to establish adequate aircraft certification standards for flight in icing conditions. Contributing to the accident were the flightcrew's decision to operate in icing conditions near the lower margin of the operating airspeed envelope (with flaps retracted), and Comair's failure to establish and adequately disseminate unambiguous minimum airspeed values for flap configurations and for flight in icing conditions.

The last U.S. commercial airline accident involving a Beechcraft 1900 was in 1996, when a United Airlines Express plane collided with a small private plane on the airport tarmac in Quincy, Illinois, killing all 14 people on board both planes.

All from the Air Safety Online Crash Database.

 

[Av8trxx]

Possible cause???

A quote from my pal Graham:

"My fraternity Brother, (AHP),(The professional aviation college fraternity,) was burnt last night on duty time. Had he not been, it would have been him in the right seat this morning. I was getting my tires rotated this morning, and Goodyear had the TV on. As soon as I heard, "Air Midwest" my cell phone went to speed dial his number. His voice answered on the second ring. Quite relieved, I said, turn on the tv. He did so, and proceeded to tell me the above. This line of work always will cause us to loose our chums, sometimes earlier than later. Late this afternoon, after I had suggested that he get "sick" for a day or so, he said, no, I am going to go sit ready reserve, so I called him around 5:00. He was in ROA, doing a turn, and said, "Hey, in light of it all, polish your shoes, put your cap on, and just go do it. He did say though that at about 4:00, it became known to insiders that a prop blade had been found on the left side of 18R around the 6,000 ft, runway remaining sign, (Black 6 boxed sign). Departing 18R, if a blade was thrown, that would explain SOME things, not all. "

 

[Timebuilder]

I had been worried that one of the pilots might have been John B., whose father and grandfather ran the little airport where I learned to fly outside of Philly.

We never know when it is our time to go. That's why it is so important that we be ready.

 

[Rank&File]

Katie was a very close friend of mine. If anyone is aware of any arrangements for her, please PM me.