AA recalls starting to increase

[CitationLover]

You guys kill me, none of you want to believe sworn Senate testimony. You would rather believe your own versions. OK, I give.

Like I said before Ican killed TWA not AA

Icahn loaded the gun, but AA pulled the trigger.

 

[G4G5]

Icahn loaded the gun, but AA pulled the trigger.

No, AA put the tape line around the body and the tag on the toe

 

[TWA Dude]

You guys kill me, none of you want to believe sworn Senate testimony.

You kill me, you believe everything a CEO says at face value. Oh, I mean, except when it's Arpey saying something YOU don't like.

Compton was testifying to expedite DOJ approval for the buyout using the "failing carrier" argument. He selectively said what had to be said to make a convincing argument. As TC wrote, a TWA BOD member said there was a Plan B. (I read his exact words as well.) Whether that Plan B would've succeeded is subject to speculation but nevertheless it was real and it involved money from Boeing. There's no denying that TWA was in poor financial shape but it's a simple fact that on January 7, 2001, TWA was solvent and there were no "lawyers on the stairs of the courthouse" waiting for the order to file Chapter 11. Except when forced by creditors the exact moment when a corporation files bankruptcy is discretionary. TWA's filing on January 8 was part of the deal between Compton and Carty and was designed to get Icahn out of the picture. And it worked. Those are facts, not speculation.

 

[blzr]

Who wants to speculate when AA will begin hiring off the street?

 

[XTW]

Who wants to speculate when AA will begin hiring off the street?

2nd Q 2009 providing everything stays status quo.

 

[Uniform Shop]

TWA's filing on January 8 was part of the deal between Compton and Carty and was designed to get Icahn out of the picture. And it worked. Those are facts, not speculation.

Here is a excerpt from an article explaining just that.


NEW YORK (CNNfn) - American Airlines parent AMR Corp. unveiled several widely-expected acquisitions Wednesday, including an agreement to purchase most of the financially troubled Trans World Airlines Inc. assets for about $500 million cash. TWA, one of the oldest carriers in the United States, filed for bankruptcy as part of the arrangement.

Was TWA in financial trouble? YES, nobody denies that but as you said those are the facts, not speculation.

 

[waveflyer]

blah blah - etc- etc- rehash - rehash

We need to have a national list so this type of pettiness gets stopped. Let's figure it out.

the view that somehow pilots of the acquiring carrier should benefit from the deplorable acts of another's CEO is anti-union. As if it couldn't have happened to you. At the same time- why should AA pilots get pushed down b/c of it? The problem is that both arguments are valid- the problem isn't how the integration happened - just like it's not the problem at usair- Both of these integration disputes and their ill-will are the only logical ending to our ridiculous seniority system.

Continuing to marry our airlines through seniority is the stupidest, short sighted tradition that we have.

 

[TWA Dude]

At the same time- why should AA pilots get pushed down b/c of it?

They shouldn't. And they didn't. Everyone knows if an arbitrator had done the TWA/AA integration it would've been a much different affair. The arbitrator in AWA/USAirways didn't staple any active pilots; they were all ratioed in a relative-seniority manner.

As for your "solution" of a national seniority list: a great idea that will never happen. Next idea, please.

 

[pkober]

We need to have a national list so this type of pettiness gets stopped. Let's figure it out.

Not saying your are one, I know you're not.

An observation. The only guys I ever hear saying we should have one national seniority list, here at CAL, are the SCABS from 1983-85.

 

[G4G5]

You kill me, you believe everything a CEO says at face value. Oh, I mean, except when it's Arpey saying something YOU don't like.

Compton was testifying to expedite DOJ approval for the buyout using the "failing carrier" argument. He selectively said what had to be said to make a convincing argument. As TC wrote, a TWA BOD member said there was a Plan B. (I read his exact words as well.) Whether that Plan B would've succeeded is subject to speculation but nevertheless it was real and it involved money from Boeing. There's no denying that TWA was in poor financial shape but it's a simple fact that on January 7, 2001, TWA was solvent and there were no "lawyers on the stairs of the courthouse" waiting for the order to file Chapter 11. Except when forced by creditors the exact moment when a corporation files bankruptcy is discretionary. TWA's filing on January 8 was part of the deal between Compton and Carty and was designed to get Icahn out of the picture. And it worked. Those are facts, not speculation.

Compton specificly denied that their were any bailouts from Boeing. He said this in his phone message to ALPA (I believe that it was mid 12/00) I also vividly remember him saying that their was, "No white knights" and "Boeing was not interested".

The whole Boeing RUMOR cracks me up. To think that Boeing would bail out TWA after American had just signed an exclusive all Boeing contract is absurd. Yep, that makes sense piss off one of your potentally biggest customer ( remember in 1999 AA was placing huge all Boeing orders) just to save the 717.

It's a nice rumor but I go with the sworn Senate testimony any day of the week

 

[xtwapilot]

Compton specificly denied that their were any bailouts from Boeing. He said this in his phone message to ALPA (I believe that it was mid 12/00) I also vividly remember him saying that their was, "No white knights" and "Boeing was not interested".

The whole Boeing RUMOR cracks me up. To think that Boeing would bail out TWA after American had just signed an exclusive all Boeing contract is absurd. Yep, that makes sense piss off one of your potentally biggest customer ( remember in 1999 AA was placing huge all Boeing orders) just to save the 717.

It's a nice rumor but I go with the sworn Senate testimony any day of the week

G0G1,
you amaze me. You simply don't get it. The Boeing deal was no rumor. You were just told a few posts ago that this came from a TWA BOD member, perhaps you have a comprehension problem. As for Boeing p*ssing off AA, business is business, if Boeing beat AA to the punch, what is AA going to do, stop ordering airplanes from Boeing? If you really believe that, then your more naive than I originally thought.
I can comfirm the Boeing deal as I flew with the MEC Chairman at the time and he told me about the TWA BOD member and the entire story was that Boeing was going to rebate $250 million to TWA and bring in a turn around team, the turn around specialist was a firm, whose name I wish I could remember, but, perhaps someone else can chime in with the name. In either case, regarding the original assumption you brought up, once again, Compton, told the truth about TWA's cash crush, no one in court nor congress asked him how the cash crush came about, and he didn't divulge the information. Therefore, no perjury. And of course Compton would say there were no white Knights, Boeing, etc. because the Boeing deal was presented to the TWA BOD and never voted on as Compton was given one more shot at getting his deal done. BTW, only the Exec BOD members knew that Compton was working on AA, no one else knew. EVeryone else knew he had a potential buyer, but didn't know who.
Essentially, these are the facts, and what you hear or want to believe as an outsider who wasn't even at AA or if you were, you were just learning to fly big jets, doesn't really matter in the end. It's been 7 years and the issue is dead for most TWA pilots, we just don't want to hear from ill informed AA types like you. Move along, the accident is over.

Xtwapilot

 

[Uniform Shop]

Deleted post because XTWAPILOT just explained it.

 

[spacecadet1]

Yep, the moon landing was a hoax, they are spreading chemtrails in the sky to brainwash us, OJ was innocent, the TWA acquisition was a conspiracy, blah, blah, blah.........

 

[pkober]

"If the glove don't fit...."

It was a hoax done in a Vegas studio, everyone knows that.

Who is the "they" that is spreading chemtrails? Apparently you know something. I would be carefull because the men in black will be coming for you.

 

[G4G5]

G0G1,
you amaze me. You simply don't get it. The Boeing deal was no rumor. You were just told a few posts ago that this came from a TWA BOD member, perhaps you have a comprehension problem. As for Boeing p*ssing off AA, business is business, if Boeing beat AA to the punch, what is AA going to do, stop ordering airplanes from Boeing? If you really believe that, then your more naive than I originally thought.
I can comfirm the Boeing deal as I flew with the MEC Chairman at the time and he told me about the TWA BOD member and the entire story was that Boeing was going to rebate $250 million to TWA and bring in a turn around team, the turn around specialist was a firm, whose name I wish I could remember, but, perhaps someone else can chime in with the name. In either case, regarding the original assumption you brought up, once again, Compton, told the truth about TWA's cash crush, no one in court nor congress asked him how the cash crush came about, and he didn't divulge the information. Therefore, no perjury. And of course Compton would say there were no white Knights, Boeing, etc. because the Boeing deal was presented to the TWA BOD and never voted on as Compton was given one more shot at getting his deal done. BTW, only the Exec BOD members knew that Compton was working on AA, no one else knew. EVeryone else knew he had a potential buyer, but didn't know who.
Essentially, these are the facts, and what you hear or want to believe as an outsider who wasn't even at AA or if you were, you were just learning to fly big jets, doesn't really matter in the end. It's been 7 years and the issue is dead for most TWA pilots, we just don't want to hear from ill informed AA types like you. Move along, the accident is over.

Xtwapilot

Just did a Google and Yahoo search on "TWA Bankruptcy Boeing Bailout"

Guess what I came up with NOTHING! Show me your proof, other then he said she said, you've got nothing. I'll stick with the Senate testmony.

Give me something other then, oh yeah did you read that other guys post.

You can't because other then, the I flew with a guy BS or I spoke with a guy garbage, you've got nothing, other then what you want to believe. Which just happens to disagree with the sworn Senate testimony of the former TWA CEO

Bottom line Boeing was not there, nor was anyone else but AA when the S hit the fan

You are right it's over, it was over the day Carl Ican got involved with TWA

 

[xtwapilot]

G0G1,
I guess you have just proven that you have gone your entire life with your foot in your mouth. Just because you did a google search and found nothing doesn't mean that it didn't exist. Many discussions are held between companies about buyouts and mergers that never come to light.
The simple fact that you seem to think if it's not in the google database, it must not be true proves that you clearly don't have the ability to think beyond your nose.
The difference here is that TWA might have been done as you say, but all of her pilots have moved on, you on the other hand will go through life with you foot in your mouth. Have fun talking, I'm out.

Xtwapilot

 

[TWA Dude]

G2G3: The TWA BOD person posted his knowledge on the TWA Pilots message board. That's how the several of us posting here all read it. As X wrote, Compton probably didn't know about the Boeing deal it and it's obviously not public information so no Google results. You can choose to believe it or not but that doesn't change the facts; it just proves that you believe what you wish to believe. We have a first-person account of these events.

 

[Flybywire44]

AA wants to merge, wonder how that will affect those still furloughed. How many are bypassing?

 

[aa73]

Guys:

I didn't start this thread for another TWA/AA argument!

Here are the facts, for the record, in the interest of putting some issues to rest (yeah, right!):

-47% of TWA pilots were integrated at 1:8
-53% were stapled
-As previously mentioned, only ONE TWA pilot was recalled straight into the left seat, in the very first recall class. This pilot had taken a "furlough stand in stead" and was way above "furlough seniority." Our contract stipulates that any pilot who takes a furlough stand in stead can "reinstate" straight to their former bid status if such an opening exists at the time of recall (and they have the seniority to hold it.)
-The very first TWA furloughee just got his CA reinstatement two months ago, around an 8800 seniority.

Back to the original thread... it looks like we are finally increasing recalls and hopefully it will keep up!

regards,
73

 

[MCDU]

Will American allow all their pilots on furlough to be stapled if they would merge or should they be included? That would staple 2000 pilots and would give the other airline a nice buffer.
Furloughed pilots do not bring any jobs, so I guess they do not count.

Marty

 

[G4G5]

You guys are good, I checked The Financial Times, The WSJ, The NY Times and Business Week and all of these paid professional reporters combined came up with, you guesses it NOTHING.

Yet you want to discount sworn testimony based upon he said, she said, that their was a Boeing deal.

Get real.

I would have loved to be around when these phone calls were made.
Boeing CEO
"Hey SWA I know that you guys have penty of 737's on order and that you compete with TWA at STL but we are going to bail them out"
Or this one;
"Hey DAL, I know that you just signed an exclusive all Boeing deal and that you compete with TWA out of JFK but were going to bail them out"
Hey United, we appreciated all of the 747/777 and 767 business and we know that you compete with TWA out of LGA but were going to bail them out"

Or best of all: "Hey AA I know that you guys just signed an exclusive deal and that you have plenty of Boeing products on order and that you have a deal pending to purchase TWA but we decided that we want to get into the airline business and break up your deal"

Or is it more realistic to think that someone inside TWA, did a little financial reasearch came up with the Boeing plan only to have Boeing say, no thanks.

I know a guy who flew with the XXX or spoke with the XXX who was at a meeting and said Boeing is in the mix. Then the rumor takes on a life of it's own and people will actually go out of their way to discount the sworn Senate testimony of the TWA CEO.

What more is their to say, you have no proof but yet you beat CNBC to the exclusive bailout story that can't be found anywhere other then in the cockpit when two TWA pilots fly together.

 

[AA717driver]

Will American allow all their pilots on furlough to be stapled if they would merge or should they be included? That would staple 2000 pilots and would give the other airline a nice buffer.
Furloughed pilots do not bring any jobs, so I guess they do not count.

Marty

American would most certainly allow the furloughed pilots to be stapled.

I doubt APA would.

It'll be irrelevant if AA buys more than 50% since it would go to an arbitrator. Thanks, Kit and Claire! TC

 

[AA717driver]

You guys are good, I checked The Financial Times, The WSJ, The NY Times and Business Week and all of these paid professional reporters combined came up with, you guesses it NOTHING.

G4G5--You're equally good--and savvy. You know as well as I do that the 'public record' you searched would have no history of an offer of this type. Relying strictly on published accounts is disingenuous in this forum. Had the AA deal not proceeded beyond Bill Compton's presentation in the boardroom, it would have been relegated to word of mouth, too.

Everyone here is free to believe what they want. Again, what we believe is now irrelevant--we can only take what exists and move forward. TC

 

[AA717driver]

Icahn loaded the gun, but AA pulled the trigger.

I disagree. Icahn bled the company dry. He was offered $100M by STL to shut down the Karabu Agreement. He passed. Absent Karabu (Icahn's travel service could sell an unlimited number of TWA tickets purchased from TWA at 55% of face value), TWA would have made a profit in the late 90's.

Compton sold TWA to Carty. He was good at that.

Also, Absent 9/11, I believe there would have been few furloughs of much shorter duration. It would have been a very different outcome for most of us, IMO. TC

 

[G4G5]

G4G5--You're equally good--and savvy. You know as well as I do that the 'public record' you searched would have no history of an offer of this type. Relying strictly on published accounts is disingenuous in this forum. Had the AA deal not proceeded beyond Bill Compton's presentation in the boardroom, it would have been relegated to word of mouth, too.

Everyone here is free to believe what they want. Again, what we believe is now irrelevant--we can only take what exists and move forward. TC

TC,

You know I love ya but I can't buy this:

"The BOD, out of respect for Compton, granted his wish, gave him time and the rest is history. Compton walked away with a 7-figure payout from AA..."

What you are suggesting is that the BOD was willing to screw all of the TWA employees (which is what a sale to AA did Vs a proposed Boeing bailout with new mgt that would keep the airline independent) Just so Compton could get a 7 figure payout.

You a very intelligent guy so stop and think about it. The thought that poor Bill Compton wasn't going to get any money so we need to blow off the better Boeing deal for the worse AA deal just to get him some $$$ is a bit much to hang a hat on.

No BOD would do that. Their has to be more to the story. And that's my point, it's a story.

Their were plenty of ways to give Compton his money, consultant contracts, non compete contracts, BOD positions. Ex Vp in charge of Nothing positions. The BOD would not and legally could not (they are required to look out for the best interests of the share holders) take the weaker deal just because Bill Compton was a nice guy.

You also know that financial publications print rumors all the time. Yet know one printed this one..........

 

[G4G5]

I disagree. Icahn bled the company dry. He was offered $100M by STL to shut down the Karabu Agreement. He passed. Absent Karabu (Icahn's travel service could sell an unlimited number of TWA tickets purchased from TWA at 55% of face value), TWA would have made a profit in the late 90's.

Compton sold TWA to Carty. He was good at that.

Also, Absent 9/11, I believe there would have been few furloughs of much shorter duration. It would have been a very different outcome for most of us, IMO. TC

I agree, absent 9/11 STL would have remained as a thriving hub (and probably would have grown with the additional over flow from ORD) . AA would be using all of the newly aquired TWA route authorities out of a new JFK terminal. The TWA JFK maint and terminal would both have remained in use. But............

The Ican ticket deal was death by paper cuts for TWA. Ican just kept bleeding TWA, that's why in the end other then a hedge fund with no funds, he was one of the few willing to step up and try to keep his cash cow alive.

 

[waveflyer]

what's insane is a seniority system- that gives control over the most important aspect of our careers to backroom deals by CEO types who have no interest in the affect on our careers.

 

[stlflyguy]

Yep, the moon landing was a hoax, they are spreading chemtrails in the sky to brainwash us, OJ was innocent, the TWA acquisition was a conspiracy, blah, blah, blah.........

...your post was relevant....etc. Just trying to keep in the same vain...

stlflyguy

 

[Prog 2/2]

TC,

You know I love ya but I can't buy this:

"The BOD, out of respect for Compton, granted his wish, gave him time and the rest is history. Compton walked away with a 7-figure payout from AA..."

What you are suggesting is that the BOD was willing to screw all of the TWA employees (which is what a sale to AA did Vs a proposed Boeing bailout with new mgt that would keep the airline independent) Just so Compton could get a 7 figure payout.

No.

What he is suggesting is that Compton took the time the board gave him and did the AA deal to stave off being replaced.

The BOD did its fiduciary duty when Compton told them he had a better plan; i.e., it let him pursue it, just in case it was better than what was on the table.

Remember, one of the selling points of Compton/Carty was that the employees would be protected.

You a very intelligent guy so stop and think about it. The thought that poor Bill Compton wasn't going to get any money so we need to blow off the better Boeing deal for the worse AA deal just to get him some $$$ is a bit much to hang a hat on.

It is.

And nowhere is it mentioned that this was the motivation.

No BOD would do that. Their has to be more to the story.

We been tryin' to tell ya's!

And that's my point, it's a story.

Their were plenty of ways to give Compton his money, consultant contracts, non compete contracts, BOD positions. Ex Vp in charge of Nothing positions. The BOD would not and legally could not (they are required to look out for the best interests of the share holders) take the weaker deal just because Bill Compton was a nice guy.

I don't recall anybody saying that it was a weaker deal, or that it was motivated by any altruistic notion of rewarding Bill Compton.

The point is, that there were other options that were available and that TWA was not picked up on the courthouse steps as many at AA believe.

Compton/Carty cooked up the deal with a TWA bankruptcy as a precondition in order to shed Karabu, renegotiate lease rates, and deal with senior debt.

Compton and TWA had to make the "bankruptcy" case as plausible and believable as possible to overcome the possible anti-trust resistance, and this is where Compton made the remarks that you're quoting.

You certainly remember that the DOT/DOJ had some heartburn over the UA/US deal, and Compton was trying to get past that hurdle by portraying us as pathetically as possible.

You also know that financial publications print rumors all the time. Yet know one printed this one..........

Unless you have access to the Board minutes, I can't think of a source of documentation for you.

Suffice to say that all the employee groups had representatives on the TWA BOD, and all have the same story.

 

[G4G5]

Unless you have access to the Board minutes, I can't think of a source of documentation for you.

So if you have access to the BOD minutes then you can do a simple cut and pase of the BOD breifing on the Boeing OFFER?

Suffice to say that all the employee groups had representatives on the TWA BOD, and all have the same story.

No.

What he is suggesting is that Compton took the time the board gave him and did the AA deal to stave off being replaced.


So you are trying to tell me that the CEO has the power to cut a deal all on his own without running it by the BOD, I don't think so.


The BOD did its fiduciary duty when Compton told them he had a better plan; i.e., it let him pursue it, just in case it was better than what was on the table.

And if it wasn't? That's my point the AA deal had to be better. If as some here suggest the alleged Boeing offer was better then it would have been acceted by the BOD

Remember, one of the selling points of Compton/Carty was that the employees would be protected.

Once again, an alleged Boeing deal would have provided an influx of cash, new leadership and the continued independent operation of TWA, which would have protect all the jobs. Yet this was not accepted by the BOD? Something doesn't make sense

I don't recall anybody saying that it was a weaker deal, or that it was motivated by any altruistic notion of rewarding Bill Compton.

Read TC's post "The BOD, out of respect for Compton, granted his wish, gave him time and the rest is history. Compton walked away with a 7-figure payout from AA..."


The point is, that there were other options that were available and that TWA was not picked up on the courthouse steps as many at AA believe.

Apparently none better then AA's. Or the BOD would have been obligaated to accept it. I remember an Ican offer and an unkonwn hedge fund with no funds.


Compton/Carty cooked up the deal with a TWA bankruptcy as a precondition in order to shed Karabu, renegotiate lease rates, and deal with senior debt.

No TWA was going BK anyway and the deal was cooked up to fight off the Ican offer.

Compton and TWA had to make the "bankruptcy" case as plausible and believable as possible to overcome the possible anti-trust resistance, and this is where Compton made the remarks that you're quoting.

Don't agree, even with Compton paying down obligations instead of renegotiation. Debts had to be paid. TWA was burning through cash at a rate of how many millions per day? They just didn't have the cash flow, access to capital and assests to pull out on their own.

You certainly remember that the DOT/DOJ had some heartburn over the UA/US deal, and Compton was trying to get past that hurdle by portraying us as pathetically as possible.

No, you were pathetic and that's the point. TWA was the only major in all of 1999 not to record a profit (not just in the last couple of months when Carty and Compton started to work on a deal) Without AA their was no way that this would ever get better as long as Ican had any ties to TWA. This is what burns a lot of AA people up. The numbers were bad, they don't lie and Ican was just not going away without AA. No AA, no getting rid of Ican's cheap tickets

You also know that financial publications print rumors all the time. Yet know one printed this one..........


So if you have access to the BOD minutes then you can do a simple cut and pase of the BOD breifing on the Boeing OFFER?

My point is and many at AA are tired of hearing the Boeing bailout BS. If their was such a deal and it was better? Why no public record of it, even the slightest blurb in any finaicial publication, someone would have leaked it? They unions could have leaked it if they honestly felt it was better.

If their was such a deal in the first place.
Why did the BOD not accept it? Just telling me that they wanted to give Compton some money doesn't cut it. Their JOB is to accept the best offer

Why did Compton risk perjury when he said, " AA was the only one that came forward"?