AA recalls starting to increase

[waveflyer]

bored

the only question is why do we set it up so that our experience counts for nothing if our company goes under. with companies as large as ours- it's always going to be something as murky as this deal

 

[pkober]

American would most certainly allow the furloughed pilots to be stapled.

I doubt APA would.

It'll be irrelevant if AA buys more than 50% since it would go to an arbitrator. Thanks, Kit and Claire! TC

I will probably catch a wrath of shi+ from my fellow TWA'ers but here goes.

I agree with you. From what I've seen the APA has always made it a priority to include furlough issues in there contract talks. They want furlough longevity. I haven't seen that were I fly at now, it may be in there but I just haven't seen it. Nor do I remember seeing that at TWA ALPA.

I believe that the APA will do the stand up thing for its furloughees in a merger, even though they are mostly TWA.

 

[Prog 2/2]

So you are trying to tell me that the CEO has the power to cut a deal all on his own without running it by the BOD, I don't think so.

Never said that.

Compton presented the board the deal that he and Carty came up with, and the board took action on that proposal in exactly the same way that they would have handled any plan presented them.

This occured well prior to any bankruptcy filing, and the plan as presented by Boeing, and others, was designed to specifically preclude that course of action.


That's my point the AA deal had to be better. If as some here suggest the alleged Boeing offer was better then it would have been acceted by the BOD

Your focus on which deal was "better" clouds the issues, I think.

The AMR asset acquisition plan was judged to be in the best interests of the corporation, as the board saw those interests.

Once again, an alleged Boeing deal would have provided an influx of cash, new leadership and the continued independent operation of TWA, which would have protect all the jobs.

It would have continued the operation of TWA and was contingent upon the participation of the unions, the aircraft lessors, and others. This participation had been secured, to some extent, prior to presentation of the plan "term sheet".

Yet this was not accepted by the BOD? Something doesn't make sense

It does if you consider that Compton/Carty brought cold cash to the table, and that Compton still held some sway with the board.

AMR simply made an offer that the BOD couldn't refuse.

They may not have wanted to sell, but there was cash and ancillary promises (re. employees, etc.) that they could not ignore and still fulfill their duty.


I remember an Ican offer and an unkonwn hedge fund with no funds.

And these occured after the bankruptcy filing that was a requirement of the AMR asset acquisition.

AMR and bankruptcy came on the scene long afte the Boeing plan was presented.


No TWA was going BK anyway and the deal was cooked up to fight off the Ican offer

You're mixing time frames here, again.

Icahn made an offer for the assets of TWA after TWA had entered bankruptcy as a condition of the AMR asset acquisition.

The Boeing plan would have continued the operation of TWA and replaced Compton, and was an alternative to acquisition by any one. It was not a competing offer to those that surfaced for the assets of TWA after the AMR inspired bankruptcy filing.


Don't agree, even with Compton paying down obligations instead of renegotiation. Debts had to be paid. TWA was burning through cash at a rate of how many millions per day? They just didn't have the cash flow, access to capital and assests to pull out on their own.

You're correct. The debts would, eventually, have to be paid.

But TWA faced no extraordinary cash crunch that could not have been alleviated by access to capital, and they were not in the corporate equivalent of "foreclosure" due to their debt structure.

The Boeing plan would have, with the participation of the debt holders, renegotiated that debt. It would have also provided access to capital, and capital markets, that TWA couldn't access without their backing.

No, you were pathetic and that's the point. TWA was the only major in all of 1999 not to record a profit (not just in the last couple of months when Carty and Compton started to work on a deal)

And this is exactly what the Boeing plan was aimed at stopping. Boeing, and the other entities behind this plan, saw that TWA, as a going concern, was a greater protection to their investment than doing nothing.


Without AA their was no way that this would ever get better as long as Ican had any ties to TWA.

Possibly true, but Boeing and others thought their plan would do exactly that.

This is what burns a lot of AA people up. The numbers were bad, they don't lie and Ican was just not going away without AA. No AA, no getting rid of Ican's cheap tickets

And what we are saying is that there were others, Boeing being the lead, that felt this could be overcome with changes.

So if you have access to the BOD minutes then you can do a simple cut and pase of the BOD breifing on the Boeing OFFER?

My point is and many at AA are tired of hearing the Boeing bailout BS. If their was such a deal and it was better? Why no public record of it, even the slightest blurb in any finaicial publication, someone would have leaked it?

I'll challenge you to find, in the public record, any mention of what was discussed at the last AMR BOD meeting.

You're asking for something that is not a matter of public record.

They unions could have leaked it if they honestly felt it was better.

Where do you think we heard it from first?


If their was such a deal in the first place.
Why did the BOD not accept it?

Explained above.

Just telling me that they wanted to give Compton some money doesn't cut it.

Nobody wanted to give Compton money. Compton's payout for the AMR deal had nothing to do with this, and was not the basis for the BOD decision.

Their JOB is to accept the best offer

Why did Compton risk perjury when he said, " AA was the only one that came forward"?

AA was the only one who came forward to make an offer for the company.

There were no other offers to purchase the company or its assets, prior to the bankruptcy filing.

The Boeing plan was not an offer of purchase, but a plan by an invested party to change the direction of the company.

This all started as a refutation of the commonly held belief that TWA was bankrupt, about to liquidate, and had no option but to surrender to a fire sale of its assets on whatever terms that AA dictated.

TWA was bankrupt because bankruptcy was an integral part of a very complex acquisition plan that was brought to the TWA BOD by Compton/Carty.

It was not a last resort, hail mary, that the BOD approved in desperation.

There were alternatives that would have preserved TWA as a going concern.

 

[G4G5]

We're going to have to do this over a few beers, because I still don't get.

The hardest thing for me to grasp is if the Boeing deal entailed, new mgt, influx of capital and keeping TWA independent (keeping all the jobs) why wasn't it accepted the BOD? If this was such a good deal and the unions leaked it as you suggest, they did a piss poor job because no one has any record of this. It was never brought up in the Bond hearings. One would think that the Senator from MO would have done anything possible to save TWA, yet not even a whisper of a deal that would have kept TWA independent and saved all the jobs was ever brought up.

Like I said, maybe it's me and someday I hope to meet the guy who can explain it to me on an over night. Because I just don't see why anyone would take the AA offer with an alleged offer like Boeings on the table.

Thanks for trying to explain it

 

[TWA Dude]

The hardest thing for me to grasp is if the Boeing deal entailed, new mgt, influx of capital and keeping TWA independent (keeping all the jobs) why wasn't it accepted the BOD?

Probably because the plan would've involved shrinking the company by a third. The AA buyout was simply a superior deal (at the time).

 

[Prog 2/2]

We're going to have to do this over a few beers

:beer:

Agreed.

I gotta get back to annoying the USAPA clowns, anyway.

Cheers

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

There is more to the story....

You guys kill me, none of you want to believe sworn Senate testimony. You would rather believe your own versions. OK, I give.

Like I said before Ican killed TWA not AA

.....G4G5:

This is right from the AMR playbook. AMR did the same thing with Air Virginia. Air Virginia was flying as one of the contract Eagles. AV declared BK as directed by AMR. AMR buys all the assets for pennies on the dollar one month later and starts the AMR Eagle. Same planes, same people, same colors.

Arguing the viability of TWA at the time of BK, time prior or what could have been, 9/11, etc. really has little to due with integration, recall, LOS, longevity for pay, etc.

To the 17-year F/O from AA that started this thread drift: The career progression for the AA pilot hired in the early 1990's has not been stellar. But that is the same for other airlines that were hired at that time.

For the AA guys that were furloughed in the early 1990's or just missed furlough, their career has not progressed well, either. Example, a buddy of mine is an F/O on the MD80 out of DCA and is about 25 out of 90 F/Os. I am about 2500 numbers shy of being the junior F/O on reserve out of DCA.

So I feel for the guy that has been at AA for 17 years and has stagnated. I also feel for the guys getting recalled in the next class that were hired in 1989 and were all Captains before.

I think I will continue to fly for my LLC while you guys duke it out a bit more. Besides, you'll probably end up pulling gear for the British or feeding the B777s to Dubai. We're becoming the new "Eagle" and don't even know it.

"The chicken is fine, and I think the fat one likes me."

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

My guess

Who wants to speculate when AA will begin hiring off the street?

2cd quarter 2009.

 

[glasspilot1]

Here are the facts, for the record, in the interest of putting some issues to rest (yeah, right!):

-47% of TWA pilots were integrated at 1:8

-53% were stapled

-As previously mentioned, only ONE TWA pilot was recalled straight into the left seat, in the very first recall class. This pilot had taken a "furlough stand in stead" and was way above "furlough seniority." Our contract stipulates that any pilot who takes a furlough stand in stead can "reinstate" straight to their former bid status if such an opening exists at the time of recall (and they have the seniority to hold it.)

-The very first TWA furloughee just got his CA reinstatement two months ago, around an 8800 seniority.

Back to the original thread... it looks like we are finally increasing recalls and hopefully it will keep up!

regards,
73

AA73:

Thanks for a well written summary of the facts, and sorry your thread was so badly hijacked! And AA guys have to realize TWAers of that seniority were 1988 hires that are only reclaiming their CA seats in STL ONLY.

 

[aa73]

Yo Glass, always a pleasure my man. Congrats on the retirement, hope you don't miss the line too much.

73

 

[glasspilot1]

Yo Glass, always a pleasure my man. Congrats on the retirement, hope you don't miss the line too much.

73

I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss the flying part! It's just everything else I don't miss!

 

[STL717]

I guess most people don’t remember everything that was going on in the industry in 2000, 2001.

UAL and US Airways were in the process of merging. To alleviate antitrust issues, part of the combined airline was going to AA, specifically the Fokkers and some 757s. Only the 757 pilots were coming to AA with the planes. A new airline was to be created in DCA and AA was going to run it for awhile. AA also had issues with nowhere to grow in ORD or DFW and STL would add a 3rd east – west hub. All of this would require more pilots at AA.

Prior to the UAL US Airways merger being completed AA buys TWA. AA would still have to hire more pilots to cover all the flying after the planes arrive from the UAL –US Airways merger.

Then... everything changed.

The UAL US Airways deal fell through. The economy was starting to slide into a recession. Then on Sept 11, 2001 the industry and the economy was hit hard by terrorism.

AA has been shrinking since then.

 

[71driver]

American Airlines took a run at TWA in the 80's Crandell was going to purchase TWA as a whole but at the midnight hour Ichan said he would not sell, but he would sell of the Heathrow ops TWA had at a premium. Crandell excepted the offer and purchased BOS,RDU,JFK, MIA to Heathrow (and I believe some others) that was a huge hit on TWA and a huge help to AA for their int'l presence, Heathrow to the US is still some of the MOST profitable routes in the world. I think most AA"ers don't realize a large part of their success could agruable be the purchase of and their presence in Heathrow, I don't want to start another arguement on this I just found it interesting.

Ichan also sold Heathrow routes to USAIR and United
in the 80's he was a real scumbag.

Also during the purchase of TWA Gordon Bethune of Continental offered 300 Million for TWA's int'l route authority which was about the same price AA paid for TWA, but of course Don Carty wanted nothing to do with that and being Debtor in Posession of TWA I think he was able to squash that quickly

 

[AA717driver]

G4G5--The "Boeing Deal" was not the land of milk and honey. As it was explained to me (I actually heard about it about 6 hours before the AA deal broke from an 890--that's "check airman" to AA'ers.) "everyone will have to take a hit". Meaning a pay hit.

The goal was to 1.) get Icahn off the property and 2.) get the IAM (specifically the rampers) to change their workrules.

I personally was in no mood to take a pay cut just to entice the rampers to get rid of their onerous workrules.

Six hours later, I got the phone call at 2 am announcing the AA deal. Again, the Boeing Deal would have been a 'scorched earth' plan to get rid of the two impediments to TWA's turnaround--Icahn and the IAM. TC

 

[G4G5]

American Airlines took a run at TWA in the 80's Crandell was going to purchase TWA as a whole but at the midnight hour Ichan said he would not sell, but he would sell of the Heathrow ops TWA had at a premium. Crandell excepted the offer and purchased BOS,RDU,JFK, MIA to Heathrow (and I believe some others) that was a huge hit on TWA and a huge help to AA for their int'l presence, Heathrow to the US is still some of the MOST profitable routes in the world. I think most AA"ers don't realize a large part of their success could agruable be the purchase of and their presence in Heathrow, I don't want to start another arguement on this I just found it interesting.

Ichan also sold Heathrow routes to USAIR and United
in the 80's he was a real scumbag.

Also during the purchase of TWA Gordon Bethune of Continental offered 300 Million for TWA's int'l route authority which was about the same price AA paid for TWA, but of course Don Carty wanted nothing to do with that and being Debtor in Posession of TWA I think he was able to squash that quickly

UAL purchased their LHR routes from Pan Am, USAir didn't not purchase any LHR routes from TWA

 

[G4G5]

G4G5--The "Boeing Deal" was not the land of milk and honey. As it was explained to me (I actually heard about it about 6 hours before the AA deal broke from an 890--that's "check airman" to AA'ers.) "everyone will have to take a hit". Meaning a pay hit.

The goal was to 1.) get Icahn off the property and 2.) get the IAM (specifically the rampers) to change their workrules.

I personally was in no mood to take a pay cut just to entice the rampers to get rid of their onerous workrules.

Six hours later, I got the phone call at 2 am announcing the AA deal. Again, the Boeing Deal would have been a 'scorched earth' plan to get rid of the two impediments to TWA's turnaround--Icahn and the IAM. TC

TC,

Most AA pilots only hear the, we should have went with the Boeing deal part. Everyone seems to leave out the "scorched earth" part or the reduced "by 1/3" part.

I was always under the ASSumption that it was a deal to keep TWA intact (100%), with no reduction in size.

Thanks,
PB

 

[glasspilot1]

>> UAL purchased their LHR routes from Pan Am, USAir didn't not purchase any LHR routes from TWA <<

Actually G4G5, you beat me to this. You are right UAL from Pan Am. And Usair did not serve LHR, only Gatwick. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong.

When Icahn sold the Heathrow authority, it was a big hit on moral at TWA. And do you think Icahn plowed the money back into the operation?

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Neubyfly]

Yes one pilot did come back from furlough directly to the left seat, I provided the evidence. .

Was that pilot a FIS? A voluntary furlought that would NOT have been furloughed if they did NOT volunteer?

 

[glasspilot1]

Was that pilot a FIS? A voluntary furlought that would NOT have been furloughed if they did NOT volunteer?

Yes

(i only added these words because this forum wants 5 words min)

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Actually, you are both wrong...

...AA under Crandall tried to purchase 6 LHR routes from TWA for over half a billion dollars. The DOT said AA could only buy 3 of the 6 routes. Icahn sold the 3 routes to AA for the same price he was going to sell all 6 routes to AA. The other 3 routes were sold to USAir for 80 million.

One of the routes that went to USAir was BWI LHR. At the time I was an International F/A for AA out of DCA.

After British Airways infused cash into USAir, BA took over the LHR routes from USAir. So three former US carrier routes went to the British.

When I was an F/A for AA, I thought I might see the LHR route, but didn't happen. When I was a TWA pilot the routes were gone. I still get a little pissed when I see that BA B777 fly near my house and into BWI. It used to be daily about 5:00pm, but now I see it less frequently.

Oh yeah, Icahn kept all that money.

>> UAL purchased their LHR routes from Pan Am, USAir didn't not purchase any LHR routes from TWA <<

Actually G4G5, you beat me to this. You are right UAL from Pan Am. And Usair did not serve LHR, only Gatwick. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong.

When Icahn sold the Heathrow authority, it was a big hit on moral at TWA. And do you think Icahn plowed the money back into the operation?

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[glasspilot1]

>> Icahn sold the 3 routes to AA for the same price he was going to sell all 6 routes to AA. The other 3 routes were sold to USAir for 80 million.

One of the routes that went to USAir was BWI LHR. <<

Thanks Jeff! Now that rings a bell.

Another thing Icahn was able to do as the private owner of TWA: Just after he took the co. private we had a fleet of L1011's. Old but paid for. He sold them to his own leasing co. So now TWA has these old widebodies AND we're paying lease payments. And the cash went; well you know where it went.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

and another thing...

I am very familiar with what you have stated below as well. All the red ground equipment was sold to one of the Icahn ego companies and then leased back at a higher rate. DC9 sim sold for 3 million and then TWA had to pay over 3 million a year to rent what they used to own.

I just finished dinner, now it is not settling too well.

How about offering to let my ride that scooter of yours in the avatar? Now, that would make me feel better. I've got the type rating!!!

>>

Another thing Icahn was able to do as the private owner of TWA: Just after he took the co. private we had a fleet of L1011's. Old but paid for. He sold them to his own leasing co. So now TWA has these old widebodies AND we're paying lease payments. And the cash went; well you know where it went.

 

[XTW]

I believe USAir got PHL-LGW from TWA during this whole ordeal.


X

 

[glasspilot1]

>> How about offering to let my ride that scooter of yours in the avatar? Now, that would make me feel better. I've got the type rating!!! <<


Look, don't touch! Ya, it's a 1975 Suzuki GT750. It's big claim to fame; it was the first modern water cooled bike. Not a big deal now but back in '72 (first year) mags were saying: "A radiator? On a motorcycle"?!!!

Also 3 cyl, 2 stroke, a unique bike.

Now Jeff, when do you expect recall and will you accept?

 

[lookin4better]

A question I have: Will AA need to even hire after these 2900ish recalls?? Essentially this IS their hiring for this cycle....what type of retirement numbers are we looking at for 2009-2015? Will hiring commence after the recalls? In the end I know what the answer is, hire until furlough and furlough until hire......

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

The scooter....

...my first scooter was a 1969 Honda 750cc. I believe it was the the of the 750cc class. It had a similar look, just bigger.

You can ride the MD Scooter anytime, as long as I get a pay assignment!!! "Paint it green and fly it to Moline!"

I am less than 600 numbers out from getting the call (not counting the bypassers) and will defer as long as possible. I was projected to get called before the end of the year, but now think it will be next year.

For the last poster (future AA applicant) I think AA will hire off the street, as many will exercise the 3 year bypass option. The 3 year clock does not start until the very last of the almost 2900 pilots has had the chance for recall (received the call).

It could be feasible that AA would need to hire off the street in 2009.

>> How about offering to let my ride that scooter of yours in the avatar? Now, that would make me feel better. I've got the type rating!!! <<


Look, don't touch! Ya, it's a 1975 Suzuki GT750. It's big claim to fame; it was the first modern water cooled bike. Not a big deal now but back in '72 (first year) mags were saying: "A radiator? On a motorcycle"?!!!

Also 3 cyl, 2 stroke, a unique bike.

Now Jeff, when do you expect recall and will you accept?

 

[Swede]

Fellas, the AA/TWA deal sucked for EVERYONE except the greedy corporate bastages who walked with million$. I am one of those 17 year native FO's. I remember getting my new seniority number that year and moving down several hundred. At the same time, a lot of long-term TWA guys were stapled and screwed. Then furloughed. I had it good compared to many.

FWIW I think I've picked up maybe 3 trips in 5 years, even when my monthly PROJ drops into the 60's due to cancellations. Guys pick up trips because in some cases, if they don't they will lose their homes. The whole thing stinks. I hope in years to come, the wounds will heal, all furloughees will be working, and we'll hire again off the street. In the meantime, it's time to fight for a contract that will define our profession, at AA and possibly beyond AA, for decades. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. If we cannot get it back now, I don't think we ever will.

 

[71driver]

Fellas, the AA/TWA deal sucked for EVERYONE except the greedy corporate bastages who walked with million$. I am one of those 17 year native FO's. I remember getting my new seniority number that year and moving down several hundred. At the same time, a lot of long-term TWA guys were stapled and screwed. Then furloughed. I had it good compared to many.

FWIW I think I've picked up maybe 3 trips in 5 years, even when my monthly PROJ drops into the 60's due to cancellations. Guys pick up trips because in some cases, if they don't they will lose their homes. The whole thing stinks. I hope in years to come, the wounds will heal, all furloughees will be working, and we'll hire again off the street. In the meantime, it's time to fight for a contract that will define our profession, at AA and possibly beyond AA, for decades. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. If we cannot get it back now, I don't think we ever will.

dude you kill me, you mean you moved down several hundred #'s man that must have been devestating......how do you cope my friend
Based on your first comment I have to assume you don't pick up trips out of laziness and nothing more, you have shown your hand....buh bye

 

[Swede]

I had it good compared to many. At the same time, a lot of long-term TWA guys were stapled and screwed.

dude, you're a MORON. I AM ON YOUR SIDE! Did you even read my post? Idiot. Don't presume to tell me what I think.

 

[aa73]

Swede, disregard his post, he obviously didn't get it. You came through loud and clear.

71driver... get a clue man, he is on your side.

73