AA recalls starting to increase

[xtwapilot]

As Paul Harvey would say, "and now for the rest of the story." The reason why TWA had $20 million cash on hand was because, TWA had a note due in Feb 2001, which in previous three 10Q was stated and not being an issue to refinance. It is also documented that the TWA bk was a condition of sale, TWA was not in Bk prior to the AA offer. Now, TWA needed to justify the reason for going into bk, and the only way to do that was to show a cash crunch. The way TWA went about doing that was to pay the note due in Feb, instead of refinancing it, and they paid several large accounts payable early. This created an artifical cash crunch and the justification for the bk. AA also had a poison pill in providing the DIP financing, which created the perfect storm.
Yes Compton was telling the truth when he said there was a cash crunch, what he didn't say was that the cash crunch was induced by TWA to justify the bk filing and ultimately to get rid of Karibu, and ensure that AA would be the only viable candidate for DIP financing because of a $50 million poison pill.
That is the rest of the story. The big problem with some AA types is that they want to justify the screwing of TWA pilots and the only thing they come up with is TWA would be out of business, or TWA was bk. But in the end if it makes some of them sleep better or look at themselves in the mirror with the straight face, then so be it. Most of us have moved on beyond Jan 10,2001. It's time for some AA types to do the same.

Xtwapilot

 

[G4G5]

Yeah, let's play "Your CEO said this..." I guess they ALL tell the truth, don't they G4G5? What were Carty's statements about "fair and equitable?"

stlflyguy

If you are trying to tell us that the CEO of a major US Corporation went to a Senate Hearing Investigation Hearing and purgered himself, then please provide the evidence.

Look I am not trying to drudge up old dirt, just provide the truth.

Yes one pilot did come back from furlough directly to the left seat, I provided the evidence. If you want to read the direct testimony from the TWA CEOto Capital Hill (aka the truth) , I provided the web site.

 

[CitationLover]

This is wrong.

The fact is, as mentioned above that one former TWA pilot did come back from furlough and directly into the left seat of an MD80 in STL. This can be verified by anyone with access to the APA web site. It is listed under the Benefits/Sevices, then the Furlough section, then Recall Stats.

he was speaking in the PRESENT tense and not the PAST tense. NO ONE is coming off the street now into the left seat, he made it sound like lots of people are (notice the says pilots).

Moreover, furloughed former TWA pilots are coming off the street straight to the left seat of an AA Super 80. This is from a 17 year AA native FO that is still throwing gear.

 

[TWA Dude]

If you are trying to tell us that the CEO of a major US Corporation went to a Senate Hearing Investigation Hearing and purgered himself, then please provide the evidence.

No purjury, he was applying spin. AWA's Doug Parker did the same thing when he told a bunch of USAir guys that absent the merger AWA would've gone Chapter 11 six months down the road. It's an opinion, not a fact, since it deals with the future. For the closest thing to facts look at the SEC filings.

 

[pkober]

As Paul Harvey would say, "and now for the rest of the story." The reason why TWA had $20 million cash on hand was because, TWA had a note due in Feb 2001, which in previous three 10Q was stated and not being an issue to refinance. It is also documented that the TWA bk was a condition of sale, TWA was not in Bk prior to the AA offer. Now, TWA needed to justify the reason for going into bk, and the only way to do that was to show a cash crunch. The way TWA went about doing that was to pay the note due in Feb, instead of refinancing it, and they paid several large accounts payable early. This created an artifical cash crunch and the justification for the bk. AA also had a poison pill in providing the DIP financing, which created the perfect storm.
Yes Compton was telling the truth when he said there was a cash crunch, what he didn't say was that the cash crunch was induced by TWA to justify the bk filing and ultimately to get rid of Karibu, and ensure that AA would be the only viable candidate for DIP financing because of a $50 million poison pill.
That is the rest of the story. The big problem with some AA types is that they want to justify the screwing of TWA pilots and the only thing they come up with is TWA would be out of business, or TWA was bk. But in the end if it makes some of them sleep better or look at themselves in the mirror with the straight face, then so be it. Most of us have moved on beyond Jan 10,2001. It's time for some AA types to do the same.

Xtwapilot

Getting "screwed" is in the eye of the beholder. No AA guy will ever say they screwed us, just like no TWA pilot will ever say we got a good deal.

No one can't say that TWA would have folded after 9-11 just like in 1999 no one couldn't have possibly seen that UAL, DAL and NWA would file bankruptcy.

The fact is that any junior AA pilot within 1000-1200 numbers who can't aleast recognize that without the TWA purchase and staple they would have been on the street is just plain smoking crack. AA would have furloughed after 9-11 and the stapled TWA pilots took the brunt of those furloughs. Those are facts.

Complaining that you are still pulling gear after 17 years while fellow APA members (TWA or AA) are furloughed is childish whining. Get real. Many people are financially ruined by the furlough. These are your union brothers.

 

[AA717driver]

G4G5--Not telling the whole story doesn't qualify as "perjury". What follows comes straight from a member of the TWA BOD who was present and an integral part of any and all discussions that determined TWA's fate:

The day before the AA deal broke in the papers, there was another deal on the table before the BOD (the Company BOD, not the union...). Bill Compton pleaded for an opportunity to finalize a deal that would be 'better for everyone'. That was the AA deal.

One of the conditions of the deal on the table was that Compton be replaced by professional management. He had no golden parachute--he gets to return to the line.

The BOD, out of respect for Compton, granted his wish, gave him time and the rest is history. Compton walked away with a 7-figure payout from AA...

As for the RUMOR that ANY former TWA pilot returned from involuntary furlough as a CA is false. I was in the July 31 class and you can bet your a$$ I would know.

I'm about 3 years away now. TC

P.S.--Correcting misinformation is not "arguing". There is a lot of misinformation floating around out there and it does no one any good to allow it to spread.

 

[FreightGod]

he was speaking in the PRESENT tense and not the PAST tense. NO ONE is coming off the street now into the left seat, he made it sound like lots of people are (notice the says pilots).

Uh, would that be me?

Perhaps I goofed, let me clearify:

In my recall class Oct 3rd, we had quite a few ex-TWA dudes who came in with re-instatement rights to MD-80 Captain, St. Louis.
Each name and their reinstatement rights were called out loud and clear by Scott Hansen. They were however witheld, some as B-767 F/Os.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought these guys then get 12 year Captains pay while flying F/O?
If that is correct, it is not a shabby deal compared to some of us native AA guys that had to start over again when we came to AA after a long career with other failed airlines.

 

[Prog 2/2]

You are the one that said I got so much value for my money being a junior AA native. I just did not se it that way when i got hundreds of TWA on the list senior to me, then a furlough notice in the mail.

Nope. What I said was that junior natives would have been furloughed in far greater numbers without the TWA purchase.

You said yourself that you must have been too junior to realise the value of this, and you were absolutely right, you were.

You, specifically, were too junior to not get furloughed with/without TWA. But for many other junior natives, the value of the TWA acquisition was the furlough fodder of TWA names on the bottom of the list.

Twist and turn and play victim all the way, but not many AA pilots felt we lucked out with the TWA purchase. In fact many thought we would be better off in the long (and short) run without TWA.

No twisting or turning here, and certainly no mention of being victimised. I gave you a counter argument to what are accepted truths among many natives that have no basis in fact.

Your last sentence above illustrates my point perfectly.

Many think it; therefore it is true, right ?

I'm not asking you to proclaim that the TWA acquisition was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But among many at AA, TWA is blamed for everything from global warming to the falling dollar, and it gets tiresome hearing it.

 

[CitationLover]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought these guys then get 12 year Captains pay while flying F/O?
If that is correct, it is not a shabby deal compared to some of us native AA guys that had to start over again when we came to AA after a long career with other failed airlines.

I do not think they are paid CA pay. My friend, who has SLT CA 80 recall rights, said he was getting a 10% pay raise from Eagle. If a 10% pay raise from Eagle is 12yr CA pay on the 80, the APA has a lot of work to do this year.

 

[CitationLover]

I'm not asking you to proclaim that the TWA acquisition was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But among many at AA, TWA is blamed for everything from global warming to the falling dollar, and it gets tiresome hearing it.

Even though AA doesn't appreciate TWA airplanes (they still make special PA's at the gate at ORD if it's a TWA MD80 due to the smaller overhead luggage space), DAL and AAI do. I am sure Bob Crandall peed his pants when he heard Carty dumping the 717's and Arpey playing hardball with a lease company on 757's and losing out to DAL. I am sure the thought, "What are those f@#$ers doing to my airline I built?" ran through his head.

 

[magrs]

...So back to the original post, is AA up to 50/month indefinitely or just a one sht deal?

 

[pkober]

This is more fun then talking about recalls.

In approx 14 months of recalling pilots a total of 1447 pilots have been offered recalls. Of those 742 have taken the recall, the rest have bypassed. 1384 have yet to receive a call.

According to the APA website, only 1 pilot was recalled as a Captain to STL and that was in Jan 07. Just one. It sounds like the information that started this thread was probably hearsay followed by an emotional posting.

 

[XTW]

Uh, would that be me?

Perhaps I goofed, let me clearify:

In my recall class Oct 3rd, we had quite a few ex-TWA dudes who came in with re-instatement rights to MD-80 Captain, St. Louis.
Each name and their reinstatement rights were called out loud and clear by Scott Hansen. They were however witheld, some as B-767 F/Os.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought these guys then get 12 year Captains pay while flying F/O?
If that is correct, it is not a shabby deal compared to some of us native AA guys that had to start over again when we came to AA after a long career with other failed airlines.

They had reinstatement rights to Captain. They were notified so that they could make a decision which 1 RR they wanted to keep. It is a significant RR so I'm sure Hansen wanted them to know they had that option. Were you notified of your RRs? You were also able to keep 1 RR, providing you had more than 1. There were no "withhelds" in the class.

Every recallee gets paid for the seat they are flying. No ex-TWA recallee is getting "pay protected" for the CA seat while flying FO. Recent recallees are getting 12 year FO pay for the aircraft they are assigned. This is because they are in their 15/16th year of longevity for pay purposes.


XTW

 

[FreightGod]

This is because they are in their 15/16th year of longevity for pay purposes.

Lucky dogs.

I came to AA on 1st year pay.
Guess I am envious.

Were you notified of your RRs? You were also able to keep 1 RR, providing you had more than 1. There were no "withhelds" in the class.

I had reinstatement rights to B-767, FO, MIA. International. Got NY instead, then MIA next month.
Not complaining, but if ya have the reinstatements rights to a base/seat/type, ya will get it on the next opeing before the preference bid.
If ya are witheld, ya get paid for the other one.

 

[FreightGod]

It sounds like the information that started this thread was probably hearsay followed by an emotional posting.

This started the thread:

Two April recall classes now... 20 in the April 2 class, 30 in the April 15 class for a total of 50 in April. Up to #1430 or so out of 2750 furloughed.

73

But the bad news is that retirements have practically stopped in March. The ugly face of age 65 will become apparent soon. If you have a decent income outside this business, it may be wise to defer recall, and invest your efforts in a career where they are appreciated.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5--Not telling the whole story doesn't qualify as "perjury". What follows comes straight from a member of the TWA BOD who was present and an integral part of any and all discussions that determined TWA's fate:

The day before the AA deal broke in the papers, there was another deal on the table before the BOD (the Company BOD, not the union...). Bill Compton pleaded for an opportunity to finalize a deal that would be 'better for everyone'. That was the AA deal.

One of the conditions of the deal on the table was that Compton be replaced by professional management. He had no golden parachute--he gets to return to the line.

The BOD, out of respect for Compton, granted his wish, gave him time and the rest is history. Compton walked away with a 7-figure payout from AA...

As for the RUMOR that ANY former TWA pilot returned from involuntary furlough as a CA is false. I was in the July 31 class and you can bet your a$$ I would know.

I'm about 3 years away now. TC

P.S.--Correcting misinformation is not "arguing". There is a lot of misinformation floating around out there and it does no one any good to allow it to spread.

TC,
The individual in question was recalled directly into the left seat, in the 3-Jan-07 class, you are correct in saying "voluntaryfurlough" the individual in question was returning from a voluntary furlough.


As far as the TWA deal, I am not going into he said/she said rumors ( I heard plenty at the LGA base meetings). Like you I have my version, but I like to keep it real by refering to Compton's direct quotes and the SEC financial data. This allows an inividual to make a informed opinion on their own.

IMHO, he did tell the whole story, just not the one that everyone wants to hear. No one, especially the CEO of a major US corporation, is going into a US Senate hearing, (knowing the ramifications) and tell some make believe BS story.

This is his direct statement to the US Senate:
"Only American Airlines saw fit this winter to come forward with a proposal that was not merely an offer to cherry-pick a prized asset here or there" According to your BOD source, he commited purjury if their was a better offer on the table.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te020701wc.htm

PB

 

[Uniform Shop]

You need to get your history straight. What were Bill Compton's comments? I don't recall any of the CEO's from the airlines you mentioned giving up and telling the employees that their "were no white knights'.

History is straight but thanks for putting the AA spin on things.

My point was that they declared bankruptcy and were bought by AA. They didn't go out of business. There is a difference. AA provided debtor in possession financing and TWA continued to operate under it's OWN operating certificate.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

TC,
The individual in question was recalled directly into the left seat, in the 3-Jan-07 class, you are correct in saying "voluntaryfurlough" the individual in question was returning from a voluntary furlough.


As far as the TWA deal, I am not going into he said/she said rumors ( I heard plenty at the LGA base meetings). Like you I have my version, but I like to keep it real by refering to Compton's direct quotes and the SEC financial data. This allows an inividual to make a informed opinion on their own.

IMHO, he did tell the whole story, just not the one that everyone wants to hear. No one, especially the CEO of a major US corporation, is going into a US Senate hearing, (knowing the ramifications) and tell some make believe BS story.

This is his direct statement to the US Senate:
"Only American Airlines saw fit this winter to come forward with a proposal that was not merely an offer to cherry-pick a prized asset here or there" According to your BOD source, he commited purjury if their was a better offer on the table.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te020701wc.htm

PB

G4G5,

Are you kidding? Do you really think that CEO's dont exaggerate or "stretch the truth" in these situations? In a court of law, it would be difficult, if not impossible to disprove Comptons' claims. There just are'nt any statements of fact there that could be tested.

As someone previously pointed out, TWA paid off a large note (which could have been easily re-negotiated) in the months before these hearings in order to make the cash position look as desperate as possible. What was not pointed out was that the note was on the order of $200 million, as I recall.

Compton was able to look Congress in the eye and tell them that the TWA situation was desperate because it was....he made it that way to facilitate the deal. He was talking with AA for a YEAR before the deal was announced. It was not just announced on the spur of the moment.

There's something else that should be acknowledged here: TWA brought airplanes, routes, gates, slots and market share to AA. These things represent value, and that value exists to this day, although it is difficult to quantify. I think it's fair to say that the economic value that TWA brought to the equation is much more than what is represented by the 400 or so TWA pilots who are currently working for AA.

 

[pkober]

This started the thread:



But the bad news is that retirements have practically stopped in March. The ugly face of age 65 will become apparent soon. If you have a decent income outside this business, it may be wise to defer recall, and invest your efforts in a career where they are appreciated.

Good point.

I meant the response by the guy whining about pulling gear for 17 years while his fellow APA members are on the street.

 

[G4G5]

You guys kill me, none of you want to believe sworn Senate testimony. You would rather believe your own versions. OK, I give.

Like I said before Ican killed TWA not AA