135 Scabs

[FN FAL]

We got a retired Eagle EMB Jet captain flying 135 at our airline, I suppose he's a scab as well.

 

[leardawg]

It's kind of a tough call to judge some of these people. It's easy when one is young to criticize someone who is trying to extend one's career at the tail-end of it. I for one know when I hit my 60s I won't be ready to strap on a blue Wal-Mart greeters' vest, and the way things are going in this industry I won't be retiring to my beachfront condo in Naples FL! On the other hand, it doesn't seem fair for some of these older types to be undercutting younger pilots' ability to make a good living, especially when it seems to be in order to stave off retirement boredom or earn "beer money". I guess it largely depends on ones' perspective; I would hope we all share the same sensitivity toward younger pilots when the shoe is on the other foot years from now (Somehow, I don't think that will be the case for many here! Just plain old human nature.)

 

[Publishers]

Let's take a more specific situation and one I am aware of. We ahve a retired captain from a major airline who is 61 years old. He would like to stay busy and even enjoy exploring some aspects of aviation that he had not spent any time in. For arguments sake, he was in the $250,000 range at XYZ airline. Did nothing but international heavy aircraft flying.
He comes in and says,,,, look, I am going to get my own XYZ type and would like to work here. Obviously I am not paying $250,000 and he indicates he would start at the low end of the spectrum just to help out.

Has he prostituted himself??? Is he way out of line?? Does he have some unknown obligation to the pilot population to demand a certain salary? My only point is that he gets to make his own decisions on what serves his interest best.

 

[leardawg]

There's certainly no law against it. I would also be willing to bet that he, like many in a similar situation and stage in life, probably doesn't give a rats' a** what anyone else thinks!

 

[Mach8Forest]

HawkerJet,
The pilots you are describing are not scabs. They can work for less with prior earned pensions so the bean counters will exploit this. With your thought process on this subject the same could be said for the rich kid who gets out of college and is subsidized by mom and dad. He or she then takes a regional jet right seat for 18k a year hoping someday to make captain for 40k. This industry and Alpo is in a spin and I don't see the working conditions or pay to get better any time soon. If you wonder what a real scab looks and acts like then look for your nearest member of APA !

 

[G100driver]

Let's take a more specific situation and one I am aware of. We ahve a retired captain from a major airline who is 61 years old. He would like to stay busy and even enjoy exploring some aspects of aviation that he had not spent any time in. For arguments sake, he was in the $250,000 range at XYZ airline. Did nothing but international heavy aircraft flying.
He comes in and says,,,, look, I am going to get my own XYZ type and would like to work here. Obviously I am not paying $250,000 and he indicates he would start at the low end of the spectrum just to help out.

I know just such a guy, no joke. Unfortunatly, I have lost a GREAT deal of repsect for him. This person certainly would not donate a portion of his salary to the major he worked for to upgrade to 747-400, so why should he donate his money to individuals that can afford a multi-million dollar aircraft just so he does not feel as though he was put out to pasture? I know that the ego of a pilot is a very fragile thing, but gimme a break.

The senority system is what perpetrated this guys career and now he choses (free country) to undercut a system that relies the integritry of the indidual(as opposed to law) to do what is right. While we have free will and all that stuff at the end of the day you will have to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself is what you are doing right. If you can say yes, then I guess you are OK ... But to me you always be the guy who undercut the future of aviation for some extra change.

In this case:

Has he prostituted himself? YES Any professional pilot that buys a type rating for a millionair is a prostitute pilot.

Is he way out of line?? YES. For an ALPA guy to behave like this it sickens me. Especially given this individual vocal support of organized labor and the like.

Does he have some unknown obligation to the pilot population to demand a certain salary? YES we all do. We owe to our families not the pilot population. The pilot populations benefit is a secondary.

I have no problem with 60 year old flying airplanes. Let me be clear about that. It is about people using their affluence to gain favor with prospective employers who could otherwise afford to fly an airplane.

 

[81Horse]

I have no problem with 60 year old flying airplanes. Let me be clear about that. It is about people using their affluence to gain favor with prospective employers who could otherwise afford to fly an airplane.

This won't be much of a problem in the future then, will it? 'Cause airline retirees will need that paycheck just as much as everyone else.

 

[G100driver]

This won't be much of a problem in the future then, will it? 'Cause airline retirees will need that paycheck just as much as everyone else.

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[Publishers]

OK but:
1. The millionaire is not buying the type rating. The airline guy is buying it so he would be competitive for positions with 135 or corporate operations. There are plenty others out there with ratings available for the jobs that exist.
2. There are a pile of airline ALPA memebers who like the pay but could not care less about organized labor. They are in a union because they had to be.
3. His family is doing very well thank you and on that issue he could work for free.
4. As stated above, I am sure he does not give a ___ what anyone thinks.
He is not offering to work for free and would be paid in the area of compensation that kind of equipment brings,,,, not to the level of experience he brings.
While everyone on these boards decries paying for your own training, the fact is that it is rare that we cannot find someone already rated for jobs. All these resumes show up from people with years of experience flying big aircraft, but, no rating in what corporate avaition or 135 charter companies fly. They ahve to take an aggressive stance or they will see their careers end. For most that I see that is the case. they send the resume like --here we are we have 50,000 hours in a 777 ,, please call.
Yesterday I interviewed someone who at 340TT was a F/O on 737-200 and then a 767 within a year with a major international carrier. Who is to say what is the right number, the right thing to do. Certainlynot anyone on these boards.

 

[G100driver]

OK but:
1. The millionaire is not buying the type rating. The airline guy is buying it so he would be competitive for positions with 135 or corporate operations. There are plenty others out there with ratings available for the jobs that exist.
2. There are a pile of airline ALPA memebers who like the pay but could not care less about organized labor. They are in a union because they had to be.
3. His family is doing very well thank you and on that issue he could work for free.
4. As stated above, I am sure he does not give a ___ what anyone thinks.
He is not offering to work for free and would be paid in the area of compensation that kind of equipment brings,,,, not to the level of experience he brings.
While everyone on these boards decries paying for your own training, the fact is that it is rare that we cannot find someone already rated for jobs. All these resumes show up from people with years of experience flying big aircraft, but, no rating in what corporate avaition or 135 charter companies fly. They ahve to take an aggressive stance or they will see their careers end. For most that I see that is the case. they send the resume like --here we are we have 50,000 hours in a 777 ,, please call.
Yesterday I interviewed someone who at 340TT was a F/O on 737-200 and then a 767 within a year with a major international carrier. Who is to say what is the right number, the right thing to do. Certainlynot anyone on these boards.

Like I said before, if a person can afford and airplane he can afford to train pilots. I could really care less about 135 ect. You need pilots, train them. No free handouts. Congress can take care of that. Not professional pilots.

If his family is doing quite well and he can do it for free, well that is great. Then why is he out here offering to buy his own type rating. Just so he is not bored? He has a massive ego and needs to fly people in order to have it stroked? Gimme a break. He lived and prospered through the senority system. It is now time to do what his brethren had done before him, retire with dignaty. (I am talking this guy. No PM's about how you lost your retirement and you need to send your kids to college because your 3rd wife took your B-Fund money).

Publishers, thank-you for a well reasoned, though completely wrong-minded response. Remember, we are all hear to educate those who need an education.

I will continue to call BS on this type of behavior as it is un-professional and does not help us a whole.

 

[FlierDude]

This person certainly would not donate a portion of his salary to the major he worked for to upgrade to 747-400, so why should he donate his money to individuals that can afford a multi-million dollar aircraft just so he does not feel as though he was put out to pasture?

Very well said! And for all those 'free-marketeers', it's a free country here (USA), and we can single out whoever we like for doing a disservice to his peers. If he doesn't need the salary that bad, go volunteer your time at a hospital, teach at a flight school or college, etc.. Just don't undercut the pay standards for those of us who are trying to make a living.

 

[XTW]

HawkerJet,
The pilots you are describing are not scabs.This industry and Alpo is in a spin and I don't see the working conditions or pay to get better any time soon. If you wonder what a real scab looks and acts like then look for your nearest member of APA !

Forest Man,

What is your personal debt interest in French beer? It's about time to pay it down. Where do I collect? FLL?

X

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Like I said before, if a person can afford and airplane he can afford to train pilots. I could really care less about 135 ect. You need pilots, train them. No free handouts. Congress can take care of that. Not professional pilots.

OK, 100, I'm with you most of the way, but this statement deserves some looking into.

How far does this go? If I can afford a jet, should I type rate the pilots? What if they have no jet time, should I get them the experience? What if they don't have an ATP, or enough total turbine to meet the insurance, should I provide that too? What defines a professional pilot? Is it a 1500 hour guy with a fresh ATP? Is it a guy with 10000 hours in jets, but not rated in the one that I own? Should I not lean toward hiring the guy that has 1000 hours and a type rating in the plane that I own?

What exactly does the owner owe to the 'professional pilot'? Why WOULDN'T he look for someone with a type rating and years of experience. I've seen posts on this board where pilots are actually mad when someone advertises a job and asks for a type or time in type. Heck, I'm a better Gulfstream pilot now than when I first got typed in it. Shouldn't an owner look for the best, safest pilot? Isn't total time and time in type part of that?

Now, answer every question

Ace

 

[hoover]

So now people are scabs because they have a different idea of the value of their work and skills than you? Who's to say they are underpaid? Isn't it just possible that you are overpaid rather than they being underpaid?

 

[Mach8Forest]

XTW
The past debt and interest is hard to calculate on the beers in Paris. The currency conversion (EURO) is the reason for this. FLL is the best place to try to calculate this and may require the introduction of an american beer into the equation.
Mach8Forest

 

[G100driver]

OK, 100, I'm with you most of the way, but this statement deserves some looking into.

How far does this go? If I can afford a jet, should I type rate the pilots? What if they have no jet time, should I get them the experience? What if they don't have an ATP, or enough total turbine to meet the insurance, should I provide that too? What defines a professional pilot? Is it a 1500 hour guy with a fresh ATP? Is it a guy with 10000 hours in jets, but not rated in the one that I own? Should I not lean toward hiring the guy that has 1000 hours and a type rating in the plane that I own?

What exactly does the owner owe to the 'professional pilot'? Why WOULDN'T he look for someone with a type rating and years of experience. I've seen posts on this board where pilots are actually mad when someone advertises a job and asks for a type or time in type. Heck, I'm a better Gulfstream pilot now than when I first got typed in it. Shouldn't an owner look for the best, safest pilot? Isn't total time and time in type part of that?

Now, answer every question

Ace

Ace:

No problem here with the senerio's you are discussing. I just have a problem with guys giving hand-out to people who do not "need" them.

I am can deal with reality a little bit ... I am not completly living in my own personal utopia.

 

[hawkerjet]

OK, There seems to be a lot more interest in this matter than I originally thought.
First of all, this was never intended to be a military bashing post
Next, I am aware of this countries' capatalistic marketplace.


What I am venting about is professional pilots coming in to my workplace and offering to work for less money than we are paying similar pilots doing the same job. PERIOD. I wanted to see if this existed elsewhere, and evidently it does.

I'll briefly explain my position. I have observed this happening several times in my career ( 14 years 135 & 91 flight)with each result having negative effects. I have noticed resentment within the pilot ranks which I noticed caused a rift. Pilots normally very willing to switch trips now were not doing so. Pilot's animosity grew as positions in larger equipment ( which usually translates into a raise for the guy getting into the bigger equipment) were given to the guys working for cheap.
One common thread I noticed was that there was no real management structure within the company. Mom & Pop operations if you will.
So when I got to a new company that had an established management structure to which I was involved, I decided to act.
I DO NOT LIKE PILOTS COMING IN AND WORKING FOR CHEAP! I think it is disruptive, divisive and has a negative impact overall on the company.
Do I feel that someone has the right to come in and offer to work for cheap, abso fuc---- lutely. This is America. But since this is America, I am also exercising my right to speak up about it, and I am.
I am not on a crusade to change the 135 industry, "but just trying to look for a solution from others on this board who may think like myself on the matter." I have spoken to the owner and the DO about my beliefs and at first they said I was meddling, then after we sat down and discussed it further, decided it was something to pursue. If you disagree with me, then thats fine too.
There were many analogies used to compare different situations but since 135 rules don't apply to salary or compensation, we're all on our own. I am drawing Information from Pro Pilot, NBAA, and Salaries.com.

I started this thread looking for others that share my feelings and I have found that many do. Thanks again to all who participated.

 

[G100driver]

Hawkerjet:

Thank you. This is America and people are free to do what they want and I appreciate that you are out doing the right thing. Keep up the good work and keep on meddling.

:beer:

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I am can deal with reality a little bit

I want some of what he's having

The fact of the matter is that both sides have the absolute right. One side can employ or be employed for whatever they want, the other side has free speech and can say whatever they want about about any group of pilots. God bless America.

But I must say, those of us that have gotten a great job in this 'horrible' time for pilots, don't seem to be calling 'sour grapes'. I'm damn good at what I do, I have a good attitude, and people have hired me and payed my wage. Pretty simple. Good pilot + good attitude = good pay and good job.

Ace

 

[G100driver]

I
But I must say, those of us that have gotten a great job in this 'horrible' time for pilots, don't seem to be calling 'sour grapes'. I'm dang good at what I do, I have a good attitude, and people have hired me and payed my wage. Pretty simple. Good pilot + good attitude = good pay and good job.

Ace

BINGO we have a winner!!!!! I got my current gig (EXCELLENT GIG) in the the worst of the down market. I am not calling sour-grapes, just looking out for everyone. I know that at sometime in my career I will be on the other side of the fence looking in.... (unfortunately we all will be).