135 Scabs

[G100driver]

OK, 100, I'm with you most of the way, but this statement deserves some looking into.

How far does this go? If I can afford a jet, should I type rate the pilots? What if they have no jet time, should I get them the experience? What if they don't have an ATP, or enough total turbine to meet the insurance, should I provide that too? What defines a professional pilot? Is it a 1500 hour guy with a fresh ATP? Is it a guy with 10000 hours in jets, but not rated in the one that I own? Should I not lean toward hiring the guy that has 1000 hours and a type rating in the plane that I own?

What exactly does the owner owe to the 'professional pilot'? Why WOULDN'T he look for someone with a type rating and years of experience. I've seen posts on this board where pilots are actually mad when someone advertises a job and asks for a type or time in type. Heck, I'm a better Gulfstream pilot now than when I first got typed in it. Shouldn't an owner look for the best, safest pilot? Isn't total time and time in type part of that?

Now, answer every question

Ace

Ace:

No problem here with the senerio's you are discussing. I just have a problem with guys giving hand-out to people who do not "need" them.

I am can deal with reality a little bit ... I am not completly living in my own personal utopia.

 

[hawkerjet]

OK, There seems to be a lot more interest in this matter than I originally thought.
First of all, this was never intended to be a military bashing post
Next, I am aware of this countries' capatalistic marketplace.


What I am venting about is professional pilots coming in to my workplace and offering to work for less money than we are paying similar pilots doing the same job. PERIOD. I wanted to see if this existed elsewhere, and evidently it does.

I'll briefly explain my position. I have observed this happening several times in my career ( 14 years 135 & 91 flight)with each result having negative effects. I have noticed resentment within the pilot ranks which I noticed caused a rift. Pilots normally very willing to switch trips now were not doing so. Pilot's animosity grew as positions in larger equipment ( which usually translates into a raise for the guy getting into the bigger equipment) were given to the guys working for cheap.
One common thread I noticed was that there was no real management structure within the company. Mom & Pop operations if you will.
So when I got to a new company that had an established management structure to which I was involved, I decided to act.
I DO NOT LIKE PILOTS COMING IN AND WORKING FOR CHEAP! I think it is disruptive, divisive and has a negative impact overall on the company.
Do I feel that someone has the right to come in and offer to work for cheap, abso fuc---- lutely. This is America. But since this is America, I am also exercising my right to speak up about it, and I am.
I am not on a crusade to change the 135 industry, "but just trying to look for a solution from others on this board who may think like myself on the matter." I have spoken to the owner and the DO about my beliefs and at first they said I was meddling, then after we sat down and discussed it further, decided it was something to pursue. If you disagree with me, then thats fine too.
There were many analogies used to compare different situations but since 135 rules don't apply to salary or compensation, we're all on our own. I am drawing Information from Pro Pilot, NBAA, and Salaries.com.

I started this thread looking for others that share my feelings and I have found that many do. Thanks again to all who participated.

 

[G100driver]

Hawkerjet:

Thank you. This is America and people are free to do what they want and I appreciate that you are out doing the right thing. Keep up the good work and keep on meddling.

:beer:

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I am can deal with reality a little bit

I want some of what he's having

The fact of the matter is that both sides have the absolute right. One side can employ or be employed for whatever they want, the other side has free speech and can say whatever they want about about any group of pilots. God bless America.

But I must say, those of us that have gotten a great job in this 'horrible' time for pilots, don't seem to be calling 'sour grapes'. I'm damn good at what I do, I have a good attitude, and people have hired me and payed my wage. Pretty simple. Good pilot + good attitude = good pay and good job.

Ace

 

[G100driver]

I
But I must say, those of us that have gotten a great job in this 'horrible' time for pilots, don't seem to be calling 'sour grapes'. I'm dang good at what I do, I have a good attitude, and people have hired me and payed my wage. Pretty simple. Good pilot + good attitude = good pay and good job.

Ace

BINGO we have a winner!!!!! I got my current gig (EXCELLENT GIG) in the the worst of the down market. I am not calling sour-grapes, just looking out for everyone. I know that at sometime in my career I will be on the other side of the fence looking in.... (unfortunately we all will be).

 

[mobie]

135 Scab

How about that young pilot that comes in for the first type rating in a jet to fly PIC, signs a two year training contract and locks into 26k per year. Just saw it happen for a CJ3.

Not a scab, but does hurt the average pay per seat. By the way that was over 60k less than the retired airline pilot was making that would not go along with what the operator was trying to do. They now will fill another 26k seat.

Mobie

 

[Publishers]

We have several issues that come together in one place.
1. As an employer, if I can find experience, type rating, all ready to go, they get the job period over training anyone. Not applicable necessarily to recurrent.
2. If someone overqualified wants to offer their services, I will listen.
3. I think pay rates are influenced by a variety of things including geographic location, equipment types, and duties.
4. An example of value--- GV drivers are harder to find, especially with experience in type. Relatively new bird, fewer of them, equals higher pay.
There is no right number for pilot compensation.

 

[G100driver]

We have several issues that come together in one place.
1. As an employer, if I can find experience, type rating, all ready to go, they get the job period over training anyone. Not applicable necessarily to recurrent.
2. If someone overqualified wants to offer their services, I will listen.
3. I think pay rates are influenced by a variety of things including geographic location, equipment types, and duties.
4. An example of value--- GV drivers are harder to find, especially with experience in type. Relatively new bird, fewer of them, equals higher pay.
There is no right number for pilot compensation.

1. Never say never. You might miss a quality person. I would never limit myself to only those typed. While prefered, I would never make it a deal breaker.

2. Sure listen. If he want to gives them away it is your right to hire him. It is my right to call him to the carpet for his actions.

3. I have never understood why a pilot is less of a pilot in Biloxi, MS vs TEB?

4. True. Take it while you can because someone will try and undercut you later.

5. There is a correct number for compensation. Numerous salary survey's will tell you. Anything less than that and you will start to loose pilots. As a manager you need to realize if you constantly lowball you will have a higher turn-over and an unhappy group. No one can cost you more money than a disgruntled pilot ...I hope that you are telling this to your clients when negotiating their contracts. I know for a fact that TAG very specifically makes this point to aircraft owners.

 

[Publishers]

I do not say never but will take the type and experience the majority of the time. Managed aircraft need you to take a whole different view than if it is just an aircaft owner hiring a crew. Still, with training being so expensive, my clients mostly want the type and some aircraft time.
As to location, it is not just pilots. Doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs tend to get paid differently in different parts of the company. $100,000 a year job in San Francisco is not the same as a $100,000 job in Fargo ND. There is a cost of living relationship.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

3. I have never understood why a pilot is less of a pilot in Biloxi, MS vs TEB?

'cause he has a mullet.

Ace

 

[Publishers]

He is not less of a pilot, he is in an area where relative salaries are different.

 

[Tyro]

I started this thread looking for others that share my feelings and I have found that many do. Thanks again to all who participated.

Have a soon-to-not be hypothetical for those with these sentiments. Answers may be illuminating.

Retired military - very solid pension and no "need" to work at all - wants (prefers) to do entry level cargo in Senecas - and will be paid the precisely same salary as the beginning chap who arrived there the traditional civil route.

Is Mr. retired-mil-no-need-to-work also a "scab?"

He is, after all, taking "someone else's job" - who needs the multi time. Riiiiiight?

 

[hawkerjet]

Apples and oranges Tyro. The aircraft has nothing to do with the equation. As long as he is coming to work for the same amount of money that the current Cappy makes. The problem I have is.... " if he wanted to fly senecas for less, than the other seneca pilots were making."

 

[diamonds2]

Don't have a stake in this game but with 28 years of business experience with one company in positions that included responsiblity for 34 different countries I do understand free enterprise and the law of supply and demand. Word to the wise, forget you are entitled to anything, you are not. Enjoy your work and it isn;t work, deal with the hand you are dealt and if you can't handle the circumstances where you are, move on. One final thought.....if you make approximately $48000 annually you make more than 99% of the worlds population (worldrichlist.com) ..... be thankful for what you have, keep a positive outlook as all that negative griping does is make you and anyone near you miserable.

 

[G100driver]

Don't have a stake in this game but with 28 years of business experience with one company in positions that included responsiblity for 34 different countries I do understand free enterprise and the law of supply and demand. Word to the wise, forget you are entitled to anything, you are not. Enjoy your work and it isn;t work, deal with the hand you are dealt and if you can't handle the circumstances where you are, move on. One final thought.....if you make approximately $48000 annually you make more than 99% of the worlds population (worldrichlist.com) ..... be thankful for what you have, keep a positive outlook as all that negative griping does is make you and anyone near you miserable.

That is correct. The only difference is for 99% of the population that $48K a year gets you something. Try living on $48K on the West Coast. Yes, I am talking home ownership and saving for retirment.

I think that most of us are all thankful for what we have EARNED. The last thing we need is somebody lower our collective standard of living because of his or her need for some sort of self worth because they are bored. Ours is a profession with professional standards .... including pay.

You can talk all you free market BS and we will continue to call BS on guys who come in and attempt to lower my profession to that of a hobby.

You sound like a one of those guys who says "at least we do not suck as bad the guys down the road." I worked for a guy who said this. Real motivating.