135 Scabs

[Tug Driver]

spooky brings up good points

a similar situation that I have experienced is when the local pilots who are just hobby pilots go and get their comm license. then they get their CFI, just becuase its something to do. so now these hobby pilots are trying to compete with me for students, while they are just bored and i am trying to put food on the table.

This is very fustrating that these "hobby pilots" advertise that they work for dirt cheap. Talk about undercutting a profession. Its less now about the so called "time builders" and more about the "hobby pilot" bunch, at least in my eyes.

 

[HMR]

Back to the original post...

HawkerJet- Good topic to vent about. I used to work for some of those "ex cops in SoCal". We had guys making close to $100K on pension and then agreeing to fly PIC in jets for $200 a day. Most of them sucked at flying and customer service and wouldn't know what a FAR/AIM was if you smacked them with it.

 

[81Horse]

On the other hand: you'll never know about all the pilots who have turned down outside flying work because 1) they don't need the money, and 2) they're sensitive to the fact that other people are trying to make a living and/or build time at the job in question.

Really, this does happen. I can think of several instances.

 

[labbats]

I don't know.

I flew a Lear for a company that hired an individual with former lear experience, but no type. The individual had money; he had no need to work. He approached the company and said he was seeking something to do, and would pay for his type and work for nothing, or a minimal wage, if the company would see clear to keep him. The company readily agreed, and though he was perhaps the closest to incompetent of any pilot I've yet met (I flew with him on several occasions, and took the aircraft from him twice), the company jumped at the chance.

I sought employment elsewhere, and left. What do do about the problem? leave aside the pilots who engage in that behavior, and boycot the companies that support it. I do.



Ignorance is no excuse, and "scab" may not be far from the mark. While union loyalists see "scab" as a term that deontes one who will cross a picketline, the truth is it denotes one who undermines his fellow pilot, who lowers the bar, and who works against the others in their efforts to succeed. This is what happens when a "scab" crosses a picket line, and this isn't far flung from those who lower the bar by accepting low or no wages on the premise that they have another income...so all others be danged.

I've met more than a few pesons who had their training bought for them by the masses, who felt no shame in buying a job...after all, they reasoned, they could afford to, and it's just a rating, just a way to "accelerate" themselves in the working world.

This is the justification of defecating in one's bed, of vomiting in one's stew. Filthy the bath for the rest and don't look back. It's reprehensible, it's wrong, and one who does it deserves no more quarter than the oft vaunted "scab."

So many hate the scab...I hate the term and have far more sympathy for the one who pursues his job without being deterred by the masses than one who buys his job and lowers the bar. In the end, however, there's little difference between the two, and the term applies in full context to both.

When my life depends on the person alongside me, and the fate of my employment depends on the high standard of professional experience that represents me and those around me, I don't really care where the other guy came from, his ideals, his hopes, his dreams, or his union membership. It's all meaningless to me. Who he is, how he flies, and weather he can do the job counts for me...and the one who couldn't get employed except by buying his job doesn't merit high on my support scale.

The term isn't that far off the mark.

This was an excellent post. I couldn't agree more.

 

[onthebeach]

Just a thought or two from the other side of the fence...

Reading between the lines, it appears that the civilian-only guys think that ex-military pilots (retired or not) are somehow able to command parity, or even premium wages, in the market. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.

A pilot retiring from the military is for the most part, wholly or predominantly inexperienced with the nuances of civilian flying that operators and civilian pilots take for granted. Additionally, as far as job performance/work ethic goes, they're an unknown quantity.

For these reasons, despite a good experience level in terms of equipment flown...but definitely not in terms of hours, or expertise in the "real world"...many ex-military pilots find it tough to find a premium job...and are "overqualified" for entry-level jobs.

On the other hand, some ex-military pilots seem to "fall into" great, high-paying jobs. I submit to you that this is because of networking among their former associates, and not primarily because they were ex-military with adequate experience in type(s). However, these pilots are generally viewed by the civilian pilot community as "typical." They are hardly that.

The average ex-military pilot seeking civilian flying work will find himself landed on a strange shore, ten to fifteen years (in terms of age) behind those he's competing with in the job market, and (although confident and tested in basic flying skills) unsure of what is expected of him, what to do, and how to do it.

What ensues is essentially an operator taking a chance on an unknown quantity, and a pilot jumping on what appears to be definitely below his/her desires and aspirations, but "adequate" in terms of basic employment.

I'm familiar with the problem that the original poster described. It is real, and it does drive wages down. I don't expect it will ever change, but maybe now some of you have an insight into the problem from the other side of the fence.

The individual ex-military pilot who takes a job for what you folks consider whore wages is not the problem; he's just caught in the middle of a system that neither he nor you can change.

 

[Spooky 1]

Reading between the lines, it appears that the civilian-only guys think that ex-military pilots (retired or not) are somehow able to command parity, or even premium wages, in the market. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.

A pilot retiring from the military is for the most part, wholly or predominantly inexperienced with the nuances of civilian flying that operators and civilian pilots take for granted. Additionally, as far as job performance/work ethic goes, they're an unknown quantity.

For these reasons, despite a good experience level in terms of equipment flown...but definitely not in terms of hours, or expertise in the "real world"...many ex-military pilots find it tough to find a premium job...and are "overqualified" for entry-level jobs.

On the other hand, some ex-military pilots seem to "fall into" great, high-paying jobs. I submit to you that this is because of networking among their former associates, and not primarily because they were ex-military with adequate experience in type(s). However, these pilots are generally viewed by the civilian pilot community as "typical." They are hardly that.

The average ex-military pilot seeking civilian flying work will find himself landed on a strange shore, ten to fifteen years (in terms of age) behind those he's competing with in the job market, and (although confident and tested in basic flying skills) unsure of what is expected of him, what to do, and how to do it.

What ensues is essentially an operator taking a chance on an unknown quantity, and a pilot jumping on what appears to be definitely below his/her desires and aspirations, but "adequate" in terms of basic employment.

I'm familiar with the problem that the original poster described. It is real, and it does drive wages down. I don't expect it will ever change, but maybe now some of you have an insight into the problem from the other side of the fence.

The individual ex-military pilot who takes a job for what you folks consider whore wages is not the problem; he's just caught in the middle of a system that neither he nor you can change.

Well there is a new perspective that I certainly had considered. The plot thickens!

 

[bravo]

Not SCABS, LOW BALLERS

Not really SCABS, but I would call them Low Ballers. i.e. Local Chief Pilot who took a 91/135 job flying 700 hrs. per year on a Citation Bravo. He retired from the Regionals. Started for $35,000 and has moved up to $50K. He claims it's his hobby.

Retired Air Force guy, great bennies including fabulous Health Care. Wife has a great job. He applied for the same Chief Pilot job as myself. Part 91. Lear 55. Willing to work for $40,000. His B.S. salary numbers came up in the interview. Thankfully my boss had the brains not to hire him.

WTFO. For all the folks who are trying to earn a decent living and look forward to retirement, you always seem to run into these LOW BALLERS.

 

[iLR60Mac]

And what is wrong with offending people? Maybe some people need to be offended once in a while. Maybe these people are due to be offended. Don't worry about what people think. If you feel something is wrong, it probably is. I agree with you. Thank you military personel. Please don't rape our civilian jobs, and don't expect those of us to hand over our "women" because you were/are military. Even though I specifically talked about some military persons, this offending should be applied to alot of civillian persons as well.

Sure, offend away. While those who are working for less than industry standard and others are trying to make a living at it the standard starts coming down. See my point?

I used to work at a 135 that hired a retired SWA/Air Force vet. He had military pension and his SWA retirement. He was working as a contract pilot in the 604. He negotiated his day pay at $500. He and I had a conversation about that. His pay, however, he didn't need much, it was the guy who needed the job and the pay at industry standard. Here are the reasons: Contract guys usually pay for their recurrent training. He doesn't. Contract guys depend on this pay to make a living. He doesn't, he is just passing the time for 5 to 10 years. This trickles down to the salary paying positions, too. 604 captains make between $90,000 and $130,000. So, a guy who says all "he needs" is $50,000 torches us all in this industry.

I am a Vet as well. I will not ruin the industry that I am in now. Especially, with my Navy pension. I negotiated my pay with my current employer. When my employer bought a larger plane we renegotiated my pay. Niether time did I accept pay below industry standard. We settled on a better than average of industry standard. Vets and retired 121's should follow. Civilians should accept no less than standard as well. The quest for time leads some to work for no or little pay. Not good for the future of this business.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

A bit uncomfortable with the "it's a free country concept?" Capitalism just not working out the way you expected? Answer the following scenarios honestly and then reevaluate this thread.

Scenario 1. You own a house. The deck is badly deteriorated and needs to be replaced. You've got bids from several contractors ranging from $4000-$6000. You find out your neighbor 3 houses away is a retired general contractor and a master carpenter. He tells you he'd be happy to do the project for $2750. Since he's retired his schedule is flexible and he can start any time you'd like him to? Do you hire him or go with the contractor for twice as much?

Scenario 2. Same house. Plumbing needs to be redone. Turns out a neighbor is a retired plumber who used to have his own plumbing company. He's replumbed hundreds of houses just like yours. His bid is about half of what a regular plumber would charge. Who do you hire?

Scenario 3. Your wife swipes a guardrail with your car. You don't have collision coverage so the repairs are coming out of your own pocket. Body shop quotes 2500. Guy down the street is a retired body and fender guy who has been doing repairs and restorations since dents were filled with lead. He'll do it for a grand. Hire him or go with the shop downtown?

Scenario 4. It's tax time. You have a complicated return due to owning a few rental properties and a retail business. The fee at the place that normally does your taxes is $550. At a cocktail party you meet a guy that just retired as VP of accounting for a medium sized corporation. He tells you he has all the current tax software on his computer and that he does tax returns for friends and family just to "keep a hand in the business." He further explains that he wants to stay in accounting part time just to keep his mind sharp and so he doesn't get bored now that he has a lot of spare time. He'll do your tax return for $175 and a bottle of Ranch Zebaco Dancing Bull Zinfandel ($14). Who does your tax return?

Everybody acts like aviation is the only industry where you have people willing to do your job for less. Happens in a lot of industries.

Oh and BTW there are no scabs in the world of 135 unless you happen to be unionized. Throwing that word around inappropriately doesn't impress anyone.

 

[George Zip]

You people are amazing. If you don't like the wages and benefits you are able to command in the marketplace given all the relevant variables then go find one you like better. Noone owes you your idea of "standard industry pay" at whatever your favorite career choice is.

I used to be in the charter business. Know what? between wealthy individuals and companies that lease out their aircraft at hourly rates that are below the fully economic cost of operating it (but above the marginal cost, for you econ 101 fans out there), it was pretty difficult for an owner / operator to make a decent return on their investment / risk. I had to choose between staying in the business I enjoyed and compete against these variables that brought the average market prices down, or choose something else. Know what businesses I own now? Hint - none are aviation related.

I have flown for the airlines for 9 years now. There is no question that the industry does not pay (and never will) enough IMHO to justify the training costs, lifestyle commitment, health implications, and lack of job security. You and I will never change that. Don't like it? Go do something else.

 

[ePilot22]

Scenario 1. You own a house. The deck is badly deteriorated and needs to be replaced. You've got bids from several contractors ranging from $4000-$6000. You find out your neighbor 3 houses away is a retired general contractor and a master carpenter. He tells you he'd be happy to do the project for $2750. Since he's retired his schedule is flexible and he can start any time you'd like him to? Do you hire him or go with the contractor for twice as much?

Scenario 2. Same house. Plumbing needs to be redone. Turns out a neighbor is a retired plumber who used to have his own plumbing company. He's replumbed hundreds of houses just like yours. His bid is about half of what a regular plumber would charge. Who do you hire?

Scenario 3. Your wife swipes a guardrail with your car. You don't have collision coverage so the repairs are coming out of your own pocket. Body shop quotes 2500. Guy down the street is a retired body and fender guy who has been doing repairs and restorations since dents were filled with lead. He'll do it for a grand. Hire him or go with the shop downtown?

Scenario 4. It's tax time. You have a complicated return due to owning a few rental properties and a retail business. The fee at the place that normally does your taxes is $550. At a cocktail party you meet a guy that just retired as VP of accounting for a medium sized corporation. He tells you he has all the current tax software on his computer and that he does tax returns for friends and family just to "keep a hand in the business." He further explains that he wants to stay in accounting part time just to keep his mind sharp and so he doesn't get bored now that he has a lot of spare time. He'll do your tax return for $175 and a bottle of Ranch Zebaco Dancing Bull Zinfandel ($14). Who does your tax return?

Sorry Dave, but all your scenarios have one flaw.

What you lay out above describes a "one time" deal. Now, if I hired my neighbor down the street to do the work on my deck, car or tax return, then hired him/her to start a business and work on a full-time basis, the scenarios would fit the problem and reality a little better.

Hiring my neighbor one time to do my deck, sure. Hiring my neighbor one time to fly my jet ( I wish!), sure. Hiring my neighbor to manage or fly my jet full-time on a routine basis at a discounted rate, NO!

Besides my neighbor would have to be an idiot to work on decks every day at a discounted rate just because he's got some spare time or doesn't need the dime. If they're that well off, then take the full pay and give to charity.

These guys are right, people willing to work for less of PFT are undercutting the industry.

Just a thought...


eP.

 

[Capt1124]

If you get training or a type rating from an employer, and then leave shortly after, to the employer that makes you a bad guy who's ripped him off.

However, employer *always* ask for applicants who are current and typed, because they don't want to pay anything for training. So every employer wants you to rip off a another employer for his benefit.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Sorry Dave, but all your scenarios have one flaw.

What you lay out above describes a "one time" deal. Now, if I hired my neighbor down the street to do the work on my deck, car or tax return, then hired him/her to start a business and work on a full-time basis, the scenarios would fit the problem and reality a little better.

Hiring my neighbor one time to do my deck, sure. Hiring my neighbor one time to fly my jet ( I wish!), sure. Hiring my neighbor to manage or fly my jet full-time on a routine basis at a discounted rate, NO!

Besides my neighbor would have to be an idiot to work on decks every day at a discounted rate just because he's got some spare time or doesn't need the dime. If they're that well off, then take the full pay and give to charity.

These guys are right, people willing to work for less of PFT are undercutting the industry.

Just a though...


eP.

So you'll look for the best value but business owners shouldn't. It's a free country. We can't prevent people from offering their services for less money. You have a couple of choices. One is to provide superior service and make it worthwhile for your employer to pay you more. The other is to withdraw your services and do something else for a living. All I'm trying to point out is what everyone complains about happens everywhere. It's not a problem limited to aviation. Everyone who uses the services of the retired accountant I used in my scenario is taking away business from a regular accounting firm. We have the same problems in the regionals. There are some people that fly for a hobby and could care less about whether or not our pay is where it should be. Ultimately you're trying to get around capitalism and free markets. You might need to move to country with a different economic system if that's what you're after. Your employer is looking to get the most bang for his buck. If he can hire a retired guy who can get the job done for less without complaints he's probably going to do it.

How big a problem is it? Chances are the percentage of retired is not all that high. Most of them don't want to work as hard as we do. The golf course or boat has more allure than a life spent in FBO's or hotels.

 

[pilotyip]

Dave B. this is a pilot board stop dealing in reality

 

[LAZYB]

...I don't mean to offend the military rank and file; and if you are offended, it is not my intention, it's the few that work below established norms. by below norms i mean a Chief Pilot making below $80,000 that oversee's more than 12 planes including Gulfstreams, and another DO making below $60,000 working for an even larger company.

Would this be @ CMA and VNY - down by the golf course

 

[HMR]

Would this be @ CMA and VNY - down by the golf course

I was thinking the SAME thing! There's also a CP @ SBA making ~50K. Same dept. that offered a pilot on this board $40K to be captain on a G200.

Pretty pathetic.

 

[hawkerjet]

Yes those are 2 out of 3 airports I'm talking about. BUR is the 3rd.
I started this thread to vent my feelings and see what kind of feedback I could get. So far I am extremely happy to see I am not the only one who thinks like this. I don't like the situation, but have decided to grab the bull by the horns and do something about it.I have confronted the pilot and discussed with him the con's of working for a lower wage. I also talked with my boss who was not happy at first ( still isn't but has warmed a little) but the talks are still ongoing. While a few people in management aren't happy, I believe a lot more good will come of this to include better morale and pilot retention. These two things alone will make pilots work harder and more diligently,thus saving the company money on operating costs, and retention.
Thanks to all who commented..

 

[HMR]

Things that make you go hmmmmm...

Anyone ever notice that between CMA, BUR and VNY there's an unusual number of CP's or DO's named Mark?

 

[RedBehren]

The unfortunate reality, gang, is that these "scabs" usually show up more qualified than the average bear, willing to work harder, and they hardly EVER complain. Take your choice as an employer... Who do you want?

 

[pilotyip]

They normally have a lot of expereince running an office outside of the cockpit, which is why you hire these guys as managment.