135 Scabs

[pilotyip]

We are not talking 48K; we are talking that 100K is a very doable number in this business. And you can do it without 100K in college loan debt. 100K is above 95% of the income in the US. It is a great paying job, you can own a house, own a couple cars and still save for retirement, I know because I have done it, and I have never made more than the magic 100K. Only on this site would 100K be sneered at as a poverty wage.

 

[G100driver]

Only on this site would 100K be sneered at as a poverty wage.

What about "cardio-thorasic surgeons.com?"

 

[exhaustgas]

From someone who tried to live a STABLE and SECURE life, counting on my employer being there for me as long as I wanted to be there for them and expecting a quality of life (and level of respect) that resembled that of most professions, I have to stand by the public service workers who have retired, taken their pensions, and taken a job with a 135 outfit. Listen people, let's face it, working for MOST 135 ops is not stable nor respectful, nor most of all secure. Can you count on them being there for you for the nest 25 years?Probably not. Can you count on them honoring your days off and payscale/promotion rights? Probably not. Can you count on your PENSION or matching 401K from your 135 op employer? Probably not. Can you count on your 135 op employer getting you home for your Anniversary or daughter's birthday as promised? Probably not. Can you count on them having you home "as promised" to be an integral part of the birth of your first child? Probably not.

I write this as someone who LEFT the full time career world of 135 ops and joined the stable ranks of Public Safety, with a pension, Collective Bargaining Agreement, job security, and quality of life. Do I miss the cockpit and all I sacrificed to get there, of course, but it is a TOY I had to give up.

To all the Public Service professionals who are "on the job" moonlighting Part time or Post Retirement with a 135 op.... Nice Choice.

Remember gentlemen, this site is to spark conversation on ALL sides of the topics. Perhaps I bring to you a slightly different persepctive. I am all for raising the bar for the profession and equating it to the lifestyle mentioned above. It's a long time coming, however.

People are not Martyrs. They will not sacrifice taking on a part time job for the sole purpose of sustaining your views on improving the industry. They will do it b/cthey can. Remember, more than any other branch of service in this industry (i.e. scheduled union groups) it is every man for himself in this forum and branch of service.

Be safe.

And for the record, I do miss my Marriott points and good eats ;-)

 

[hawkerjet]

Exaustgas, as an ex 135 pilot you can see the dilemna some of the long time 135 pilots face. A good deal of pilots use 135 jobs as a stepping stone to bigger and brighter jobs. continuity is not an easy objective to strive for, but i think it is an integral part of our business. if it was every man for himself ( like it is in some companies) what do you think the turnover would be at that company let alone the morale? by having a stable workforce that is well managed helps alleviate turnover to a more manageable aspect. Pay and respect are two of the biggest tangents in keeping attrition low. Attrition is a constant factor in our indusry, however managed properly, most costs will be minimized.
While i don't know your buddies moonlighting in the 135 biz, part tme help is crucial to some companies for vacations, training etc. I just hope they are not whoring themselves out to the lowest bidder. If they are, i have no respect for them and would do whatever i could to keep them out of my organization.

 

[Tyro]

Apples and oranges Tyro. The aircraft has nothing to do with the equation. As long as he is coming to work for the same amount of money that the current Cappy makes. The problem I have is.... " if he wanted to fly senecas for less, than the other seneca pilots were making."

Logically consistent argument. Have to agree.

Hadn't thought of economics in quite this light before, learned something.

Hope things work out.

 

[pilothouston123]

We have a couple retired airline guys flying 135 in our king airs. We fly them 2 pilots and I had a co captin show up for a charter flihgt in a tie and colored shirt. We got our uniforms a few weeks back and I told him this is a charter flight. He mumbled some excuse and said do you really think i care cuz I dont car. What an a$$hole. He is loves dodging responibilities and his favorite excuse is I didnt know or I didnt thinkof that. I hate it.Last thing I must vent about is.... He never puts the seat back and all the way down to aid in getting in the airplane and leaves his used airplugs in the side pocket.

 

[Prof. ATP]

While i don't know your buddies moonlighting in the 135 biz, part tme help is crucial to some companies for vacations, training etc. I just hope they are not whoring themselves out to the lowest bidder.

It is possible to do things right. I am a 135 moonlighter (day job: college professor). I started as a CFI in 1993, making the same as everyone else, even though I could afford to do it for free. I got students by being a better CFI. Moved into 135 flying with the same company, getting the same pay as everyone else. As a partt-imer, I didn't advance as quickly as others, but eventually it was time to move up to the King Air, and the company paid for the training (same as everyone else) and I get the same pay as everyone else (actually, I get a little more because I have some administrative responsibilities).

What do I get out of this? First, I love to fly, and I believe that I am good at it. I like the other pilots, I like our customers, I like our office staff, I like our mechanics, and I like the airplanes. Second, once they call you "daddy" you never have enough money; I almost feel that it would be irresponsible not to have a second job, even though my first job pays quite well. While my buddies are out fishing and skiing, I am often at work.

What did the company get? Stability has to top the list. Dozens of pilots have come and gone, but I am still here, teaching our new guys how we do things. Also, I am willing (even eager) to cover unusual times (many many shifts covering our air ambulance, for example).

Flame me if you like...but I am not whoring myself and the company is not taking advantage of me. I am not taking a job from someone else. I earn that money.

 

[hawkerjet]

Mach8Forest, I understand that the pilots this thread is talking about are not scabs.... My very first words on this thread was looking for a different word to describe their actions and to see how widespread the problem was.As for the analogy for the rich kid getting subsidized by his parents, you have one flaw. First i don't care how wealthy his parents are and that they give him lot's of money. What i care about is that his pay check is the same as everyone elses when he starts, period..I am guessing you're an airline guy based on the aircraft you have listed in your profile. your field is very different from mine in that you have quite a bit of uniformity. A more accurate analogy for you would be if i came in to your company and wanted to be a 747 captain right away and would offer to do so at, say $60,000. While this scenario is probably not likely to happen in the big carriers, that's what it feels like to me. so i'll do what i can to abate the problem..

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hawkerjet,
I am both 135 and 121. Just did not want to list all the props as it is extensive. As for your scab analogy in my workplace thats exactly what the APA did do.
Mach8Forest

 

[Stealthh21]

Let this thread die!!

 

[h25b]

Let this thread die!!

I'll second that... Talk about one big sour grapes thread. You guys that have a problem with retired airline guys need to get a life.

 

[AAslag]

Pilotyip,

I'm hi-jacking the thread here, however, I'm curious by your A/C flown. If you flew Neptunes then obviously you've been around the block a few times.

What about the B-17G? I'm just curious. I'd give my left one just to sit in it!

 

[G100driver]

I'll second that... Talk about one big sour grapes thread. You guys that have a problem with retired airline guys need to get a life.

h25b ... Nice pictures of the kids:beer:

It is not about retired airline guys coming out to the corporate world. It is about guys who are asking for less than the market rate because they do not "need" as much as a guy with a family to support.

Until you have seen a guy with a family to support get undercut by this you will not understand.

Yes, it is America, I know

 

[h25b]

h25b ... Nice pictures of the kids:beer:

It is not about retired airline guys coming out to the corporate world. It is about guys who are asking for less than the market rate because they do not "need" as much as a guy with a family to support.

Until you have seen a guy with a family to support get undercut by this you will not understand.

Yes, it is America, I know

Thanks for the compliment...

The point I'm getting at is that there are far more young eager pilots out there willing to do it for less than there are retired airline pilots.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

When a better looking prostitute shows up on your corner, you either take the cast offs or find another corner.....

 

[mobie]

135 scabs

Where I last worked (and I am retired airline not working cheap wage) we had one of the pilots go to NJA and came back doing contract work at 1/2 the day rate that was normal on his days off.

So do not give me this retired airline pilot undercutting you. I will not work for anyone that does not pay what I am worth.

This is to say that h25b is right.

Thanks for the compliment...

The point I'm getting at is that there are far more young eager pilots out there willing to do it for less than there are retired airline pilots.

​

 

[Stealthh21]

Die Thread Die!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FalconJetDriver]

Oooh...up on my soapbox

We have a guy, early 60's, who is retired airline, huge pension- got out before the troubles, who just wants out of the house cuz his wife drives him nuts, guess he doesn't golf. He has only flown majors, never 135 before, can't land a biz-jet even after two-yrs- slams it on every time! Have to pick-up pax teeth and give 'em back as they get out! Has failed 2 check-rides, forgets things all the time, ATC always getting frustrated with him because he can't seem to find the runway or get the needles right! He isn't even worth the crap wages that he told the owner he would take just so he could still "play" pilot. Now, owner, who is not a pilot, enamored with the fact he was an airline captain, has made him chief pilot! Now he believes that we should all take the same crap wages, but since he can't reduce our pay, expects us to now all become FO's on second biz-jet at company we are not typed in, and they have no intention on typing us in, for no more money! If we don't accept the additional job, we can leave- he put it bluntly. He says there are plenty of "hungry" pilots out there who are waiting in line to take our place & they will do it for even less! The shame of it all is that he is right! Unless we are willing to sell our home, move our family, let my wife's business here go down the tubes, the kids have to change schools, then we are up **** creek! Now we all have to follow his rules, and we have to change the way that the rest of us career (over 20yrs) corporate pilots have learned is the right way- and do everything the 121 way!! This guy won't even be able to be insured in a few more years, and he can't fly worth ****! If I got this guy up in a taildragger, he'd pee his pants!! Doesn't really like airplanes, never even taken his kids (grown now) up flying in a small plane cuz he doesn't like them (planes, not the kids).

 

[FlierDude]

We have a guy, early 60's, who is retired airline, huge pension- got out before the troubles, who just wants out of the house cuz his wife drives him nuts, guess he doesn't golf. He has only flown majors, never 135 before, can't land a biz-jet even after two-yrs- slams it on every time! Have to pick-up pax teeth and give 'em back as they get out! Has failed 2 check-rides, forgets things all the time, ATC always getting frustrated with him because he can't seem to find the runway or get the needles right!

Worked with 2 CP's like that, one was ex-mil and the other civvie, so any source can provide a hack. It takes a concerted effort by a majority of the crews complaining en masse to mgmt, but you can change it.

As for the pay, we also had a situation where we were being bought out and pay was cut 50% - for flight crews only! - because they thought we would put up with the $hit for 3 months or so. The captains all went to the company president and threatened to walk. Guess what? The captains pay wasn't touched, but FO's was cut (because no one stood their ground).

Stick together, and your chances are much improved.

 

[Lear-fan]

the solution

Start a nationwide 135 professional organization like the AMA is for doctors. It becomes very powerful in determining charges for services and stoping abuses.

This would not be an aviation union. We are not a labor group we are professional pilots and as such should have a strong professional organization to help protect against what ever.

I believe that's why the airline pilots got it wrong with unions. they should have created a professional organization like the AMA rather than a labor union structure mentality. They are not laborers.

So lets start a PPA. Every 135 pilot in the country would belong and then we would be in a position to say no to abuses.

Until that time Economics 101 will rule, Supply and Demand!

Please excuse my spelling, it's late.

Just a thought.

DES

 

[grandma]

A bit uncomfortable with the "it's a free country concept?" Capitalism just not working out the way you expected? Answer the following scenarios honestly and then reevaluate this thread.

Scenario 1. You own a house. The deck is badly deteriorated and needs to be replaced. You've got bids from several contractors ranging from $4000-$6000. You find out your neighbor 3 houses away is a retired general contractor and a master carpenter. He tells you he'd be happy to do the project for $2750. Since he's retired his schedule is flexible and he can start any time you'd like him to? Do you hire him or go with the contractor for twice as much?

Scenario 2. Same house. Plumbing needs to be redone. Turns out a neighbor is a retired plumber who used to have his own plumbing company. He's replumbed hundreds of houses just like yours. His bid is about half of what a regular plumber would charge. Who do you hire?

Scenario 3. Your wife swipes a guardrail with your car. You don't have collision coverage so the repairs are coming out of your own pocket. Body shop quotes 2500. Guy down the street is a retired body and fender guy who has been doing repairs and restorations since dents were filled with lead. He'll do it for a grand. Hire him or go with the shop downtown?

Scenario 4. It's tax time. You have a complicated return due to owning a few rental properties and a retail business. The fee at the place that normally does your taxes is $550. At a cocktail party you meet a guy that just retired as VP of accounting for a medium sized corporation. He tells you he has all the current tax software on his computer and that he does tax returns for friends and family just to "keep a hand in the business." He further explains that he wants to stay in accounting part time just to keep his mind sharp and so he doesn't get bored now that he has a lot of spare time. He'll do your tax return for $175 and a bottle of Ranch Zebaco Dancing Bull Zinfandel ($14). Who does your tax return?

Everybody acts like aviation is the only industry where you have people willing to do your job for less. Happens in a lot of industries.

Oh and BTW there are no scabs in the world of 135 unless you happen to be unionized. Throwing that word around inappropriately doesn't impress anyone.

Obviously, many people that run companies will hire somebody that costs them less. I don't think that this is what the issue is about. It's what we, as employees can do to stop the race to the bottom in aviation.

Anyways, perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be:

Through no fault of her own, your dog needs an abortion. The crazy whackos down at the Vet clinic want $500 bucks to do it. One afternoon at a NASCAR tailgate party, you meet a nice young man with an interesting collection of multi-colored coathangers. He says he'll do it for two hotdogs and your tattered Dale Earnhardt cap. Who do YOU go with?

 

[h25b]

It's what we, as employees can do to stop the race to the bottom in aviation.

I swear if I ever hear anyone use the term "race to the bottom" in my physical presence while referring to anything aviation related I'm going to whip 'em over the head with a crash axe.

 

[AAslag]

I swear if I ever hear anyone use the term "race to the bottom" in my physical presence while referring to anything aviation related I'm going to whip 'em over the head with a crash axe.

Out here in the country "race to the bottom" means the river bottoms. Where, of course, the beer bashes are held.
:beer:

 

[grandma]

I swear if I ever hear anyone use the term "race to the bottom" in my physical presence while referring to anything aviation related I'm going to whip 'em over the head with a crash axe.

Gee, sorry I blew up.