135 Scabs

[mobie]

135 Scab

How about that young pilot that comes in for the first type rating in a jet to fly PIC, signs a two year training contract and locks into 26k per year. Just saw it happen for a CJ3.

Not a scab, but does hurt the average pay per seat. By the way that was over 60k less than the retired airline pilot was making that would not go along with what the operator was trying to do. They now will fill another 26k seat.

Mobie

 

[Publishers]

We have several issues that come together in one place.
1. As an employer, if I can find experience, type rating, all ready to go, they get the job period over training anyone. Not applicable necessarily to recurrent.
2. If someone overqualified wants to offer their services, I will listen.
3. I think pay rates are influenced by a variety of things including geographic location, equipment types, and duties.
4. An example of value--- GV drivers are harder to find, especially with experience in type. Relatively new bird, fewer of them, equals higher pay.
There is no right number for pilot compensation.

 

[G100driver]

We have several issues that come together in one place.
1. As an employer, if I can find experience, type rating, all ready to go, they get the job period over training anyone. Not applicable necessarily to recurrent.
2. If someone overqualified wants to offer their services, I will listen.
3. I think pay rates are influenced by a variety of things including geographic location, equipment types, and duties.
4. An example of value--- GV drivers are harder to find, especially with experience in type. Relatively new bird, fewer of them, equals higher pay.
There is no right number for pilot compensation.

1. Never say never. You might miss a quality person. I would never limit myself to only those typed. While prefered, I would never make it a deal breaker.

2. Sure listen. If he want to gives them away it is your right to hire him. It is my right to call him to the carpet for his actions.

3. I have never understood why a pilot is less of a pilot in Biloxi, MS vs TEB?

4. True. Take it while you can because someone will try and undercut you later.

5. There is a correct number for compensation. Numerous salary survey's will tell you. Anything less than that and you will start to loose pilots. As a manager you need to realize if you constantly lowball you will have a higher turn-over and an unhappy group. No one can cost you more money than a disgruntled pilot ...I hope that you are telling this to your clients when negotiating their contracts. I know for a fact that TAG very specifically makes this point to aircraft owners.

 

[Publishers]

I do not say never but will take the type and experience the majority of the time. Managed aircraft need you to take a whole different view than if it is just an aircaft owner hiring a crew. Still, with training being so expensive, my clients mostly want the type and some aircraft time.
As to location, it is not just pilots. Doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs tend to get paid differently in different parts of the company. $100,000 a year job in San Francisco is not the same as a $100,000 job in Fargo ND. There is a cost of living relationship.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

3. I have never understood why a pilot is less of a pilot in Biloxi, MS vs TEB?

'cause he has a mullet.

Ace

 

[Publishers]

He is not less of a pilot, he is in an area where relative salaries are different.

 

[Tyro]

I started this thread looking for others that share my feelings and I have found that many do. Thanks again to all who participated.

Have a soon-to-not be hypothetical for those with these sentiments. Answers may be illuminating.

Retired military - very solid pension and no "need" to work at all - wants (prefers) to do entry level cargo in Senecas - and will be paid the precisely same salary as the beginning chap who arrived there the traditional civil route.

Is Mr. retired-mil-no-need-to-work also a "scab?"

He is, after all, taking "someone else's job" - who needs the multi time. Riiiiiight?

 

[hawkerjet]

Apples and oranges Tyro. The aircraft has nothing to do with the equation. As long as he is coming to work for the same amount of money that the current Cappy makes. The problem I have is.... " if he wanted to fly senecas for less, than the other seneca pilots were making."

 

[diamonds2]

Don't have a stake in this game but with 28 years of business experience with one company in positions that included responsiblity for 34 different countries I do understand free enterprise and the law of supply and demand. Word to the wise, forget you are entitled to anything, you are not. Enjoy your work and it isn;t work, deal with the hand you are dealt and if you can't handle the circumstances where you are, move on. One final thought.....if you make approximately $48000 annually you make more than 99% of the worlds population (worldrichlist.com) ..... be thankful for what you have, keep a positive outlook as all that negative griping does is make you and anyone near you miserable.

 

[G100driver]

Don't have a stake in this game but with 28 years of business experience with one company in positions that included responsiblity for 34 different countries I do understand free enterprise and the law of supply and demand. Word to the wise, forget you are entitled to anything, you are not. Enjoy your work and it isn;t work, deal with the hand you are dealt and if you can't handle the circumstances where you are, move on. One final thought.....if you make approximately $48000 annually you make more than 99% of the worlds population (worldrichlist.com) ..... be thankful for what you have, keep a positive outlook as all that negative griping does is make you and anyone near you miserable.

That is correct. The only difference is for 99% of the population that $48K a year gets you something. Try living on $48K on the West Coast. Yes, I am talking home ownership and saving for retirment.

I think that most of us are all thankful for what we have EARNED. The last thing we need is somebody lower our collective standard of living because of his or her need for some sort of self worth because they are bored. Ours is a profession with professional standards .... including pay.

You can talk all you free market BS and we will continue to call BS on guys who come in and attempt to lower my profession to that of a hobby.

You sound like a one of those guys who says "at least we do not suck as bad the guys down the road." I worked for a guy who said this. Real motivating.

 

[pilotyip]

We are not talking 48K; we are talking that 100K is a very doable number in this business. And you can do it without 100K in college loan debt. 100K is above 95% of the income in the US. It is a great paying job, you can own a house, own a couple cars and still save for retirement, I know because I have done it, and I have never made more than the magic 100K. Only on this site would 100K be sneered at as a poverty wage.

 

[G100driver]

Only on this site would 100K be sneered at as a poverty wage.

What about "cardio-thorasic surgeons.com?"

 

[exhaustgas]

From someone who tried to live a STABLE and SECURE life, counting on my employer being there for me as long as I wanted to be there for them and expecting a quality of life (and level of respect) that resembled that of most professions, I have to stand by the public service workers who have retired, taken their pensions, and taken a job with a 135 outfit. Listen people, let's face it, working for MOST 135 ops is not stable nor respectful, nor most of all secure. Can you count on them being there for you for the nest 25 years?Probably not. Can you count on them honoring your days off and payscale/promotion rights? Probably not. Can you count on your PENSION or matching 401K from your 135 op employer? Probably not. Can you count on your 135 op employer getting you home for your Anniversary or daughter's birthday as promised? Probably not. Can you count on them having you home "as promised" to be an integral part of the birth of your first child? Probably not.

I write this as someone who LEFT the full time career world of 135 ops and joined the stable ranks of Public Safety, with a pension, Collective Bargaining Agreement, job security, and quality of life. Do I miss the cockpit and all I sacrificed to get there, of course, but it is a TOY I had to give up.

To all the Public Service professionals who are "on the job" moonlighting Part time or Post Retirement with a 135 op.... Nice Choice.

Remember gentlemen, this site is to spark conversation on ALL sides of the topics. Perhaps I bring to you a slightly different persepctive. I am all for raising the bar for the profession and equating it to the lifestyle mentioned above. It's a long time coming, however.

People are not Martyrs. They will not sacrifice taking on a part time job for the sole purpose of sustaining your views on improving the industry. They will do it b/cthey can. Remember, more than any other branch of service in this industry (i.e. scheduled union groups) it is every man for himself in this forum and branch of service.

Be safe.

And for the record, I do miss my Marriott points and good eats ;-)

 

[hawkerjet]

Exaustgas, as an ex 135 pilot you can see the dilemna some of the long time 135 pilots face. A good deal of pilots use 135 jobs as a stepping stone to bigger and brighter jobs. continuity is not an easy objective to strive for, but i think it is an integral part of our business. if it was every man for himself ( like it is in some companies) what do you think the turnover would be at that company let alone the morale? by having a stable workforce that is well managed helps alleviate turnover to a more manageable aspect. Pay and respect are two of the biggest tangents in keeping attrition low. Attrition is a constant factor in our indusry, however managed properly, most costs will be minimized.
While i don't know your buddies moonlighting in the 135 biz, part tme help is crucial to some companies for vacations, training etc. I just hope they are not whoring themselves out to the lowest bidder. If they are, i have no respect for them and would do whatever i could to keep them out of my organization.

 

[Tyro]

Apples and oranges Tyro. The aircraft has nothing to do with the equation. As long as he is coming to work for the same amount of money that the current Cappy makes. The problem I have is.... " if he wanted to fly senecas for less, than the other seneca pilots were making."

Logically consistent argument. Have to agree.

Hadn't thought of economics in quite this light before, learned something.

Hope things work out.

 

[pilothouston123]

We have a couple retired airline guys flying 135 in our king airs. We fly them 2 pilots and I had a co captin show up for a charter flihgt in a tie and colored shirt. We got our uniforms a few weeks back and I told him this is a charter flight. He mumbled some excuse and said do you really think i care cuz I dont car. What an a$$hole. He is loves dodging responibilities and his favorite excuse is I didnt know or I didnt thinkof that. I hate it.Last thing I must vent about is.... He never puts the seat back and all the way down to aid in getting in the airplane and leaves his used airplugs in the side pocket.

 

[Prof. ATP]

While i don't know your buddies moonlighting in the 135 biz, part tme help is crucial to some companies for vacations, training etc. I just hope they are not whoring themselves out to the lowest bidder.

It is possible to do things right. I am a 135 moonlighter (day job: college professor). I started as a CFI in 1993, making the same as everyone else, even though I could afford to do it for free. I got students by being a better CFI. Moved into 135 flying with the same company, getting the same pay as everyone else. As a partt-imer, I didn't advance as quickly as others, but eventually it was time to move up to the King Air, and the company paid for the training (same as everyone else) and I get the same pay as everyone else (actually, I get a little more because I have some administrative responsibilities).

What do I get out of this? First, I love to fly, and I believe that I am good at it. I like the other pilots, I like our customers, I like our office staff, I like our mechanics, and I like the airplanes. Second, once they call you "daddy" you never have enough money; I almost feel that it would be irresponsible not to have a second job, even though my first job pays quite well. While my buddies are out fishing and skiing, I am often at work.

What did the company get? Stability has to top the list. Dozens of pilots have come and gone, but I am still here, teaching our new guys how we do things. Also, I am willing (even eager) to cover unusual times (many many shifts covering our air ambulance, for example).

Flame me if you like...but I am not whoring myself and the company is not taking advantage of me. I am not taking a job from someone else. I earn that money.

 

[hawkerjet]

Mach8Forest, I understand that the pilots this thread is talking about are not scabs.... My very first words on this thread was looking for a different word to describe their actions and to see how widespread the problem was.As for the analogy for the rich kid getting subsidized by his parents, you have one flaw. First i don't care how wealthy his parents are and that they give him lot's of money. What i care about is that his pay check is the same as everyone elses when he starts, period..I am guessing you're an airline guy based on the aircraft you have listed in your profile. your field is very different from mine in that you have quite a bit of uniformity. A more accurate analogy for you would be if i came in to your company and wanted to be a 747 captain right away and would offer to do so at, say $60,000. While this scenario is probably not likely to happen in the big carriers, that's what it feels like to me. so i'll do what i can to abate the problem..

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hawkerjet,
I am both 135 and 121. Just did not want to list all the props as it is extensive. As for your scab analogy in my workplace thats exactly what the APA did do.
Mach8Forest

 

[Stealthh21]

Let this thread die!!