135 Scabs

[Deuce130]

Reading between the lines, it appears that the civilian-only guys think that ex-military pilots (retired or not) are somehow able to command parity, or even premium wages, in the market. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.

A pilot retiring from the military is for the most part, wholly or predominantly inexperienced with the nuances of civilian flying that operators and civilian pilots take for granted. Additionally, as far as job performance/work ethic goes, they're an unknown quantity.

For these reasons, despite a good experience level in terms of equipment flown...but definitely not in terms of hours, or expertise in the "real world"...many ex-military pilots find it tough to find a premium job...and are "overqualified" for entry-level jobs.

On the other hand, some ex-military pilots seem to "fall into" great, high-paying jobs. I submit to you that this is because of networking among their former associates, and not primarily because they were ex-military with adequate experience in type(s). However, these pilots are generally viewed by the civilian pilot community as "typical." They are hardly that.

The average ex-military pilot seeking civilian flying work will find himself landed on a strange shore, ten to fifteen years (in terms of age) behind those he's competing with in the job market, and (although confident and tested in basic flying skills) unsure of what is expected of him, what to do, and how to do it.

What ensues is essentially an operator taking a chance on an unknown quantity, and a pilot jumping on what appears to be definitely below his/her desires and aspirations, but "adequate" in terms of basic employment.

I'm familiar with the problem that the original poster described. It is real, and it does drive wages down. I don't expect it will ever change, but maybe now some of you have an insight into the problem from the other side of the fence.

The individual ex-military pilot who takes a job for what you folks consider whore wages is not the problem; he's just caught in the middle of a system that neither he nor you can change.

You seem to have serious issues with military pilots as well as being wholly ignorant of what military pilots do for a living. 1) We can, and do, demand parity for wages once coming off active duty. This is well deserved. I'll put our flying skills up against any equally experienced civilian in any airplane, any place, any time. 2) Just what "nuances" to civilian flying are you talking about? Flying is flying. Except military flying tends to be more challenging, more dynamic, and more varied. In addition, all companies do things a little differently - all it takes is time to learn how you're company does it. 3) Performance/work ethic? Seriously? After 20 years in the military flying high performance aircraft, leading men and women, and holding command positions you seriously think work ethic and performance is an unknown quantity? Ridiculous. 4) Not experienced in terms of hours?? I'd rather take a 10 year F-16 pilot with 1600 hours (further broken down into night, combat, NVG, and instructor hours) or a 10 year C-130 pilot with 3,000 hours (same break down) over a 10 year guy who's been paying for time, hustling at the FBO, or flying puddle jumpers between Tallahassee and Dothan. And what, exactly, is the "real world?" You mean the airspace between Virginia and California? The sun never sets on military pilots. 5) Military guys don't "fall into" these jobs. They earn them. Management at the majors might hire a few guys with connections, but if the vast majority of the military guys weren't so qualified then they wouldn't get hired. SWA, FDX, UPS, et al wouldn't hire so many of us if they weren't getting a kick-a** product. They'd hire a lot more civilians instead. But, since they don't, I'll take that as positive feedback that we are not 10-15 years behind competing civilians in the job market.

Maybe if you guys had a payscale wherever it is that you work you wouldn't run into this issue. In addition, anyone has a right to work. Having a military pension shouldn't disqualify a guy from working. What would you have him do? Work at the Wal-Mart so he doesn't drive your wages from 35$/hr to 32$/hr? The guys at the majors could say the exact same thing about regionals. Ask someone at Delta, United, or NWA if guys flying for peanuts at the regionals/commuters doesn't have an effect on them.

 

[El Ocho]

Interesting... I think the two sides of this issue might come down to those that believe in working to make something better and those that believe in the "magic" of capitalism and the free market....

Problem with the "magic" of course is that is does not care about anything worthwhile, i.e. people, and it's work is not the best in term of humanity, only in terms of economics...

So you choose, no restrictions and more profit, or some rules and some humanity...

 

[G100driver]

. Having a military pension shouldn't disqualify a guy from working. What would you have him do?

You are correct, just do not use it in the interview to say that you will work for less money(not that it sounds like you are trying to do so).

I have heard this in the past from more from retired airline than military. This is a profession, not a hobby.

 

[stonewall]

You are correct, just do not use it in the interview to say that you will work for less money(not that it sounds like you are trying to do so).

I have heard this in the past from more from retired airline than military. This is a profession, not a hobby.

I agree. The mil pension isn't really that much...I'm not sure why any retired military dudes would do this.

 

[pilotyip]

They would do it because they like the job, it is near where they want to live, they like the guy they are going to work for, and those are more important in the decision than the top dollar. If he did not get the 135 DO job; he might also really be into home improvement and decide that a job at Home Depot at less money is actually better for him. If the pay and work conditions are too low the employer will be faced with turnover. As stated above the market place will figure out what works. I will also comment, when you are unemployed your view of what is an acceptable salary changes drastically. Mil retirement is a nice cushion, but you can not live very well on it, and I think it is available to almost anyone who wants put in the time to collect it.

 

[iLR60Mac]

Did anyone say this only happens in this industry? Nope. This is an aviation forum. We'll b*tch about our own industry.

 

[FlierDude]

They would do it because they like the job, it is near where they want to live, they like the guy they are going to work for, and those are more important in the decision than the top dollar.

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

I had a job offer from a 135 operator several years back. They inquired about my wife's job and wanted to know details about my health-care coverage through her company. I passed on their low-ball, scumbag job offer. If it's a real job, then pay accordingly. It IS all about supply-and-demand. When you can't find pilots at cheap wages, you'll raise the wage or get into an industry you're better-prepared for.

 

[ePilot22]

In Other Words...

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

i.e. What has worth is worth paying for.



eP.

 

[pilotyip]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

 

[FlierDude]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

Actually, I did 'step up'. Regular Army Vietnam-era vet enlistee, 1972-75. I hope you served our country also, pilotyip. Actually, some of our duty days were 20 hours, and the barracks were deemed substandard by the Army.

So just because the guy is ex-military, or has money from his family, or any of a hundred other reasons, it's OK to undercut other professionals? I know individuals who do this now, doesn't make it right. Ya pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.