135 Scabs

[iLR60Mac]

Did anyone say this only happens in this industry? Nope. This is an aviation forum. We'll b*tch about our own industry.

 

[FlierDude]

They would do it because they like the job, it is near where they want to live, they like the guy they are going to work for, and those are more important in the decision than the top dollar.

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

I had a job offer from a 135 operator several years back. They inquired about my wife's job and wanted to know details about my health-care coverage through her company. I passed on their low-ball, scumbag job offer. If it's a real job, then pay accordingly. It IS all about supply-and-demand. When you can't find pilots at cheap wages, you'll raise the wage or get into an industry you're better-prepared for.

 

[ePilot22]

In Other Words...

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

i.e. What has worth is worth paying for.



eP.

 

[pilotyip]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

 

[FlierDude]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

Actually, I did 'step up'. Regular Army Vietnam-era vet enlistee, 1972-75. I hope you served our country also, pilotyip. Actually, some of our duty days were 20 hours, and the barracks were deemed substandard by the Army.

So just because the guy is ex-military, or has money from his family, or any of a hundred other reasons, it's OK to undercut other professionals? I know individuals who do this now, doesn't make it right. Ya pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.

 

[Publishers]

There seems to be no recognition on this board that people in the USA can work for whatever they want to work for. Be it ex military or be it ex airline or whatever, they have a right to work at the wages they find acceptable. Everyone here seems to be constantly looking for a way to legislate pay rates acceptable to them for them.

I had a former Marine pilot who went on with the airlines talk to me about a job and made it clear that he expected a wage way above the norm because he had all this experience. Last time I saw him, he had not found anyone who appreicated his talents. I ahve seen other retire from one of the other and find jobs to stay in the business but were paid market rates.
The point is that only we can determine our market rate. There is no "right pay" for any particular flying. There is offered and accepted.

 

[pilotyip]

There you go again publishers, dealing with reality on a pilot board.

 

[FlierDude]

Publishers,

There is no "right pay" for any particular flying. There is offered and accepted.

You're right, there is no 'right pay'. Nothing set in stone, but there is a high and low, with varying benefits, QOL, etc., that each job has. That's why there are published pay scales in many of the av magazines. Forgive some of us if we demand a median wage in exchange for our experience, education, long hours, etc.. I don't see pilots as greedy, (OK, maybe UAL and DAL ) but more like athletes - skilled, but with issues that could curtail their career earnings (medicals, bankruptcies...).

I fail to see why an employer exploiting the unique circumstances of an individual should not be called on it, as should the employee for accepting substantially less pay. The employer exploits our talents and schedules, we should be paid accordingly.

 

[Publishers]

Forgive you,,,, no problem at all. As an employer, I offer you a job at x and you can accept or reject that job. I appreciate your experience and desires may make my offer not acceptable to you. On the other hand, if one is agreeable and accepts, then we have a job in America. Anything that intrudes on that is artificial and eventually leads to problems.
What I do not understand is why you call any of this some kind of exploitation. I have offered and he has accepted. Who may I ask are you to tell me what I should work for?????

 

[G100driver]

Forgive you,,,, no problem at all. As an employer, I offer you a job at x and you can accept or reject that job. I appreciate your experience and desires may make my offer not acceptable to you. On the other hand, if one is agreeable and accepts, then we have a job in America. Anything that intrudes on that is artificial and eventually leads to problems.
What I do not understand is why you call any of this some kind of exploitation. I have offered and he has accepted. Who may I ask are you to tell me what I should work for?????

While you are correct, this is America, we also have a responsiblity to call BS on guys who use their bargining position to ask and accept a lower wage based on false econmies. This makes it tougher for all of us to get a fair wage.

If we as a group collectively not work for substandard wages the better we as group of pilots fare. I am suprised that you guys in dispatching have not figured that out.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

2) Just what "nuances" to civilian flying are you talking about? Flying is flying. Except military flying tends to be more challenging, more dynamic, and more varied.

4) Not experienced in terms of hours?? I'd rather take a 10 year F-16 pilot with 1600 hours (further broken down into night, combat, NVG, and instructor hours) or a 10 year C-130 pilot with 3,000 hours (same break down) over a 10 year guy who's been paying for time, hustling at the FBO, or flying puddle jumpers between Tallahassee and Dothan. And what, exactly, is the "real world?" You mean the airspace between Virginia and California? The sun never sets on military pilots.

You need to realize is that there is far more to life in the civilian flying world than just the flying.

 

[Publishers]

G100--The question is just who is determining the correct wage and when did you get the appointment to decide who is called out for BS.

Dave -- While this would be fodder for Netjetwife, the fact is the there are many aspects to flying civilian that are non flying issues. The F16 driver does all his CRM in front of a mirror. Furthermore, I have found that military pilots often develop a false sense of what the reality of civilian jobs contains. In the military, when you are an officer and give orders, they may often be followed no matter how tactful you were in giving them. Does not always work that way in this side of the business.

 

[G100driver]

Publishers:

I was given the appointment to call BS when I have seen well qualifiied pilots ask for a "standard" wage only to be undercut by the retired military/airline/independent contractor who is willing to work at a less than market rate because of his personal circustances (not to be mistaken for a retired/airline/independent contractor who works for a standard wage).

The last thing a pilot ever needs to do in make an apology for asking for a less than standard wage. We as professionals should not ask those who can afford an aircraft for a less than a standard wage.

I will continue to call BS on these individuals and those who support giving hand-outs to millionairs.

Like I said this is not a hobby to me. It is a profession and I EXPECT to paid an instrustry standard wage (when was the last time a retired military MD gave you "deal" because he did not need the money). Anything less than that I would denying my family the comforts that they have grown accustomed to and would furthermore do a dis-service to every other professional out in work place.

Thanks for opprotunity to further clarify mine and about 90% of the people who fly for a livings position. As for the other 10% .... well, they are everywhere.

 

[pilotyip]

So G-100 lets me get this right Joe is an unemployed retired something, military, UAW worker, age 60 121 pilot, whatever who can not live on his retirement pay. Joe is only making around $2500-$3000/mo in retirement. Joe has gone to an employment agency and they are advertising for a chief pilot job that pays $50,000. Only seven people have applied because the pay is on the low end of pro-pilot national survey. Joe interviews and is offered the job. Is Joe now not supposed to take the job and feed my family because it might offend you and the rest of the brotherhood? Is that what you are saying? Joe is sorry you were offended, but he took the job, but you can feel good because you are a better man than Joe and would not stoop that low to support your family. You should bond together with the rest of the brother hood and lobby congress to set a minimum wage for jobs you would be intertesed in so that scum ball Joe can not come in an steal your job.

 

[G100driver]

Pilotyip, no disrespect, but did whomever in question go into a job interview and say ..."I know that you are willing to pay $XX,XXX, but I am willing to do it for less because I do not need the money due to my military/airline pension." I know that it sounds crazy, I have had guys tell me this.

Obviously if said employer is only willing to pay $XX,XXX then you have very little to bargin with. Take the job as need to support your family. Not an apples to apples comparision. Sorry I did not make that clear.