135 Scabs

[Deuce130]

Reading between the lines, it appears that the civilian-only guys think that ex-military pilots (retired or not) are somehow able to command parity, or even premium wages, in the market. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.

A pilot retiring from the military is for the most part, wholly or predominantly inexperienced with the nuances of civilian flying that operators and civilian pilots take for granted. Additionally, as far as job performance/work ethic goes, they're an unknown quantity.

For these reasons, despite a good experience level in terms of equipment flown...but definitely not in terms of hours, or expertise in the "real world"...many ex-military pilots find it tough to find a premium job...and are "overqualified" for entry-level jobs.

On the other hand, some ex-military pilots seem to "fall into" great, high-paying jobs. I submit to you that this is because of networking among their former associates, and not primarily because they were ex-military with adequate experience in type(s). However, these pilots are generally viewed by the civilian pilot community as "typical." They are hardly that.

The average ex-military pilot seeking civilian flying work will find himself landed on a strange shore, ten to fifteen years (in terms of age) behind those he's competing with in the job market, and (although confident and tested in basic flying skills) unsure of what is expected of him, what to do, and how to do it.

What ensues is essentially an operator taking a chance on an unknown quantity, and a pilot jumping on what appears to be definitely below his/her desires and aspirations, but "adequate" in terms of basic employment.

I'm familiar with the problem that the original poster described. It is real, and it does drive wages down. I don't expect it will ever change, but maybe now some of you have an insight into the problem from the other side of the fence.

The individual ex-military pilot who takes a job for what you folks consider whore wages is not the problem; he's just caught in the middle of a system that neither he nor you can change.

You seem to have serious issues with military pilots as well as being wholly ignorant of what military pilots do for a living. 1) We can, and do, demand parity for wages once coming off active duty. This is well deserved. I'll put our flying skills up against any equally experienced civilian in any airplane, any place, any time. 2) Just what "nuances" to civilian flying are you talking about? Flying is flying. Except military flying tends to be more challenging, more dynamic, and more varied. In addition, all companies do things a little differently - all it takes is time to learn how you're company does it. 3) Performance/work ethic? Seriously? After 20 years in the military flying high performance aircraft, leading men and women, and holding command positions you seriously think work ethic and performance is an unknown quantity? Ridiculous. 4) Not experienced in terms of hours?? I'd rather take a 10 year F-16 pilot with 1600 hours (further broken down into night, combat, NVG, and instructor hours) or a 10 year C-130 pilot with 3,000 hours (same break down) over a 10 year guy who's been paying for time, hustling at the FBO, or flying puddle jumpers between Tallahassee and Dothan. And what, exactly, is the "real world?" You mean the airspace between Virginia and California? The sun never sets on military pilots. 5) Military guys don't "fall into" these jobs. They earn them. Management at the majors might hire a few guys with connections, but if the vast majority of the military guys weren't so qualified then they wouldn't get hired. SWA, FDX, UPS, et al wouldn't hire so many of us if they weren't getting a kick-a** product. They'd hire a lot more civilians instead. But, since they don't, I'll take that as positive feedback that we are not 10-15 years behind competing civilians in the job market.

Maybe if you guys had a payscale wherever it is that you work you wouldn't run into this issue. In addition, anyone has a right to work. Having a military pension shouldn't disqualify a guy from working. What would you have him do? Work at the Wal-Mart so he doesn't drive your wages from 35$/hr to 32$/hr? The guys at the majors could say the exact same thing about regionals. Ask someone at Delta, United, or NWA if guys flying for peanuts at the regionals/commuters doesn't have an effect on them.

 

[El Ocho]

Interesting... I think the two sides of this issue might come down to those that believe in working to make something better and those that believe in the "magic" of capitalism and the free market....

Problem with the "magic" of course is that is does not care about anything worthwhile, i.e. people, and it's work is not the best in term of humanity, only in terms of economics...

So you choose, no restrictions and more profit, or some rules and some humanity...

 

[G100driver]

. Having a military pension shouldn't disqualify a guy from working. What would you have him do?

You are correct, just do not use it in the interview to say that you will work for less money(not that it sounds like you are trying to do so).

I have heard this in the past from more from retired airline than military. This is a profession, not a hobby.

 

[stonewall]

You are correct, just do not use it in the interview to say that you will work for less money(not that it sounds like you are trying to do so).

I have heard this in the past from more from retired airline than military. This is a profession, not a hobby.

I agree. The mil pension isn't really that much...I'm not sure why any retired military dudes would do this.

 

[pilotyip]

They would do it because they like the job, it is near where they want to live, they like the guy they are going to work for, and those are more important in the decision than the top dollar. If he did not get the 135 DO job; he might also really be into home improvement and decide that a job at Home Depot at less money is actually better for him. If the pay and work conditions are too low the employer will be faced with turnover. As stated above the market place will figure out what works. I will also comment, when you are unemployed your view of what is an acceptable salary changes drastically. Mil retirement is a nice cushion, but you can not live very well on it, and I think it is available to almost anyone who wants put in the time to collect it.

 

[iLR60Mac]

Did anyone say this only happens in this industry? Nope. This is an aviation forum. We'll b*tch about our own industry.

 

[FlierDude]

They would do it because they like the job, it is near where they want to live, they like the guy they are going to work for, and those are more important in the decision than the top dollar.

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

I had a job offer from a 135 operator several years back. They inquired about my wife's job and wanted to know details about my health-care coverage through her company. I passed on their low-ball, scumbag job offer. If it's a real job, then pay accordingly. It IS all about supply-and-demand. When you can't find pilots at cheap wages, you'll raise the wage or get into an industry you're better-prepared for.

 

[ePilot22]

In Other Words...

Who cares what the guys' reasons are? If he qualifies for the job, he should qualify at full pay, not something reduced by outside factors like previous employers, living off taxpayers, etc..

i.e. What has worth is worth paying for.



eP.

 

[pilotyip]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

 

[FlierDude]

Flier dude, you too could have stepped up and be living off the tax payers money. You too could have spent 4 years away from home, working up to 16 hours per day, 7 days in row, living in a 6 X 12 room with 5 other guys. Yes you could have done all this. Thank you for your support of our veterans.

Actually, I did 'step up'. Regular Army Vietnam-era vet enlistee, 1972-75. I hope you served our country also, pilotyip. Actually, some of our duty days were 20 hours, and the barracks were deemed substandard by the Army.

So just because the guy is ex-military, or has money from his family, or any of a hundred other reasons, it's OK to undercut other professionals? I know individuals who do this now, doesn't make it right. Ya pay peanuts, ya get monkeys.

 

[Publishers]

There seems to be no recognition on this board that people in the USA can work for whatever they want to work for. Be it ex military or be it ex airline or whatever, they have a right to work at the wages they find acceptable. Everyone here seems to be constantly looking for a way to legislate pay rates acceptable to them for them.

I had a former Marine pilot who went on with the airlines talk to me about a job and made it clear that he expected a wage way above the norm because he had all this experience. Last time I saw him, he had not found anyone who appreicated his talents. I ahve seen other retire from one of the other and find jobs to stay in the business but were paid market rates.
The point is that only we can determine our market rate. There is no "right pay" for any particular flying. There is offered and accepted.

 

[pilotyip]

There you go again publishers, dealing with reality on a pilot board.

 

[FlierDude]

Publishers,

There is no "right pay" for any particular flying. There is offered and accepted.

You're right, there is no 'right pay'. Nothing set in stone, but there is a high and low, with varying benefits, QOL, etc., that each job has. That's why there are published pay scales in many of the av magazines. Forgive some of us if we demand a median wage in exchange for our experience, education, long hours, etc.. I don't see pilots as greedy, (OK, maybe UAL and DAL ) but more like athletes - skilled, but with issues that could curtail their career earnings (medicals, bankruptcies...).

I fail to see why an employer exploiting the unique circumstances of an individual should not be called on it, as should the employee for accepting substantially less pay. The employer exploits our talents and schedules, we should be paid accordingly.

 

[Publishers]

Forgive you,,,, no problem at all. As an employer, I offer you a job at x and you can accept or reject that job. I appreciate your experience and desires may make my offer not acceptable to you. On the other hand, if one is agreeable and accepts, then we have a job in America. Anything that intrudes on that is artificial and eventually leads to problems.
What I do not understand is why you call any of this some kind of exploitation. I have offered and he has accepted. Who may I ask are you to tell me what I should work for?????

 

[G100driver]

Forgive you,,,, no problem at all. As an employer, I offer you a job at x and you can accept or reject that job. I appreciate your experience and desires may make my offer not acceptable to you. On the other hand, if one is agreeable and accepts, then we have a job in America. Anything that intrudes on that is artificial and eventually leads to problems.
What I do not understand is why you call any of this some kind of exploitation. I have offered and he has accepted. Who may I ask are you to tell me what I should work for?????

While you are correct, this is America, we also have a responsiblity to call BS on guys who use their bargining position to ask and accept a lower wage based on false econmies. This makes it tougher for all of us to get a fair wage.

If we as a group collectively not work for substandard wages the better we as group of pilots fare. I am suprised that you guys in dispatching have not figured that out.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

2) Just what "nuances" to civilian flying are you talking about? Flying is flying. Except military flying tends to be more challenging, more dynamic, and more varied.

4) Not experienced in terms of hours?? I'd rather take a 10 year F-16 pilot with 1600 hours (further broken down into night, combat, NVG, and instructor hours) or a 10 year C-130 pilot with 3,000 hours (same break down) over a 10 year guy who's been paying for time, hustling at the FBO, or flying puddle jumpers between Tallahassee and Dothan. And what, exactly, is the "real world?" You mean the airspace between Virginia and California? The sun never sets on military pilots.

You need to realize is that there is far more to life in the civilian flying world than just the flying.

 

[Publishers]

G100--The question is just who is determining the correct wage and when did you get the appointment to decide who is called out for BS.

Dave -- While this would be fodder for Netjetwife, the fact is the there are many aspects to flying civilian that are non flying issues. The F16 driver does all his CRM in front of a mirror. Furthermore, I have found that military pilots often develop a false sense of what the reality of civilian jobs contains. In the military, when you are an officer and give orders, they may often be followed no matter how tactful you were in giving them. Does not always work that way in this side of the business.

 

[G100driver]

Publishers:

I was given the appointment to call BS when I have seen well qualifiied pilots ask for a "standard" wage only to be undercut by the retired military/airline/independent contractor who is willing to work at a less than market rate because of his personal circustances (not to be mistaken for a retired/airline/independent contractor who works for a standard wage).

The last thing a pilot ever needs to do in make an apology for asking for a less than standard wage. We as professionals should not ask those who can afford an aircraft for a less than a standard wage.

I will continue to call BS on these individuals and those who support giving hand-outs to millionairs.

Like I said this is not a hobby to me. It is a profession and I EXPECT to paid an instrustry standard wage (when was the last time a retired military MD gave you "deal" because he did not need the money). Anything less than that I would denying my family the comforts that they have grown accustomed to and would furthermore do a dis-service to every other professional out in work place.

Thanks for opprotunity to further clarify mine and about 90% of the people who fly for a livings position. As for the other 10% .... well, they are everywhere.

 

[pilotyip]

So G-100 lets me get this right Joe is an unemployed retired something, military, UAW worker, age 60 121 pilot, whatever who can not live on his retirement pay. Joe is only making around $2500-$3000/mo in retirement. Joe has gone to an employment agency and they are advertising for a chief pilot job that pays $50,000. Only seven people have applied because the pay is on the low end of pro-pilot national survey. Joe interviews and is offered the job. Is Joe now not supposed to take the job and feed my family because it might offend you and the rest of the brotherhood? Is that what you are saying? Joe is sorry you were offended, but he took the job, but you can feel good because you are a better man than Joe and would not stoop that low to support your family. You should bond together with the rest of the brother hood and lobby congress to set a minimum wage for jobs you would be intertesed in so that scum ball Joe can not come in an steal your job.

 

[G100driver]

Pilotyip, no disrespect, but did whomever in question go into a job interview and say ..."I know that you are willing to pay $XX,XXX, but I am willing to do it for less because I do not need the money due to my military/airline pension." I know that it sounds crazy, I have had guys tell me this.

Obviously if said employer is only willing to pay $XX,XXX then you have very little to bargin with. Take the job as need to support your family. Not an apples to apples comparision. Sorry I did not make that clear.