Southwest Line on Credit?

[SWA Bubba]

Deal one was what I guess my friend told me about last year... deal two sounds VERY bad.... there are 20+ year CA's there, right? so now they're all FO's?

Also, this 10 year fence... does it have gates? or is there a total base bid freeze in and out for 10 years? I don't get it..

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

 

[27 driver]

The million dollar question is how many 717's will still be flying past Jan 1, 2015. Right now there are 36 scheduled to be transitioned in 2015. Will we fly those as SW pilots or will GK park those airplanes. There will be approx 1100 AAI pilots to be trained in 2014 if they stick to the current plan. If GK keeps the 717's flying then those captains might slide into SW as Captains depending on vacancy's at that time. We have AAI 737 guys training on the 717 now in hopes of keeping their 4'th stripe as long as possible. Some may only fly the 717 for a month or so before they transition to SW. Time will tell.

 

[PCL_128]

I have a LOT more experience with alpa than you do-

Funny!

why not extend even if GK wants a negotiated deal- why not delay delay- why not poison the well?

Because certainty is better than uncertainty. Having a negotiated list that was fair was a far superior alternative than going to arbitration where the outcome would be unknown. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to achieve a fair outcome in negotiations, so the MEC decided that arbitration was the only possible avenue. It had nothing to do with delaying or poisoning any well. It was just an MEC doing their job: trying to get the best possible outcome for their members.

GK could have used the same exact leverage and stapled you.
Do you disagree?

No, I don't disagree. I've said it before, in fact. The pilot group was so irrationally afraid after the public threats began that he could have stapled everyone, imposed a permanent B-scale, and prohibited captain upgrades for 20 years, and the pilots still would have voted for it. The level of fear was off the charts.

What he used instead was a reasonably good estimation of what an arbitrator would come up with, using consultants with decades of experience in these things to come up with a fair list-

This is where you go off the reservation. Gary didn't pick this list based upon some complex formulation of what experts came up with. He picked this list because he believed it was the worst thing he could do to us and still not look like a monster. He wanted to continue being able to claim the "Golden Rule," and he thought this was the worst he could do and get away with it. He went a bit too far, though, because you'll have a hard time finding any AirTran pilot who doesn't burst out laughing when someone mentions the Golden Rule. AirTran pilots voted out of fear, nothing else. They'll never trust Gary, Mike, or SWA again. They'll never feel the way about SWA that you do. He shouldn't have pushed the envelope quite so far. Now he has a quarter of his pilot group who don't believe the SWA hype.

I for damn sure think its unfair to Swapa pilots-

Yes, we've already established that you're delusional.

Btw- take down your signature

No thanks.

 

[WOWIdidntKnow]

PCL_128

He went a bit too far, though, because you'll have a hard time finding any AirTran pilot who doesn't burst out laughing when someone mentions the Golden Rule.

Thank goodness you are wrong. I have flown with about 10 former AT pilots, and to a man they have all shown the same great attitude that I have seen from FO's for 20 years. Certainly, they could be blowing smoke up you know where, but when I see the actions and discussions and facial expressions that exude nothing but joy all though out a trip, I gotta say you couldn't be more wrong.

I'm sure i'll run into one of your supposed "bitter" pilots someday, probably when we fly toghether ;-)

Until, then, it is all good

 

[HA25]

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

thanks, good info.. sounds fair on it's face.

 

[PCL_128]

Certainly, they could be blowing smoke up you know where

Bingo. Our pilots aren't idiots. They know to keep their true opinions quiet to avoid creating problems for themselves.

 

[Citrusflyer]

.... We have AAI 737 guys training on the 717 now in hopes of keeping their 4'th stripe as long as possible. ...

Ah, no ... we have 737 guys training on the 717 because SWA/ALPA will not relieve that requirement for guys who bid 717TBA prior to coming over to SWA on the 737. No one in that boat has any option to NOT train.

 

[humveedriver]

thanks, good info.. sounds fair on it's face.

Fairness, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Hopefully, some senior AT will be able to upgrade in 2015. Our CA seats were tied to the 717 and our 737 CA seats were specifically allocated to original SWA pilots. Ultimately I don't think the deal we ended up with was fair to either pilot group. I think the SWA pilots should have received a signing bonus and the AT pilots less of a seniority hit. Instead both groups were told here ya go! Hope you like it, by SWA management.

 

[canyonblue]

No, I don't disagree. I've said it before, in fact. The pilot group was so irrationally afraid after the public threats began that he could have stapled everyone, imposed a permanent B-scale, and prohibited captain upgrades for 20 years, and the pilots still would have voted for it. The level of fear was off the charts.

This is the part that I don't understand, isn't this the same group that voted 98% to strike? The same group that essentially was telling their management that they would walk away from their jobs rather than accept a ridiculous offer. I don't understand how this group could be forced into anything. Is the reality that this group would have accepted any offer from AirTran management to keep their jobs, and the strike vote was a sham. Perhaps that is the reason that the negotiations dragged on so long is because all along they knew you would never strike. At least that is the way you are leading me to believe by your statements.

Or is the reality that losing the AirTran job was palatable, but losing the Southwest job was not. I'm not starting a bitchfest, just trying to figure out the true story. It just doesn't add up.

 

[PCL_128]

This is the part that I don't understand, isn't this the same group that voted 98% to strike? The same group that essentially was telling their management that they would walk away from their jobs rather than accept a ridiculous offer. I don't understand how this group could be forced into anything. Is the reality that this group would have accepted any offer from AirTran management to keep their jobs, and the strike vote was a sham. Perhaps that is the reason that the negotiations dragged on so long is because all along they knew you would never strike. At least that is the way you are leading me to believe by your statements.

Yes, I believe the strike vote was indeed a sham. I now believe that if we had gone on strike, we likely would have had a significant amount of the pilot group cross within a few days. But even more likely is that as a cooling off period progressed and got closer to the deadline, pilots would have been coming out of the woodwork demanding that the MEC settle for whatever management offered. That's essentially why the MEC ended up taking Gary's second offer. They didn't want to, but the pressure from the pilot group was overwhelming. The very same pilots who sent emails in July telling the MEC to vote down AIP1 without sending it out for a pilot vote were clamoring for a vote after Gary went public with the threats. The fear was palpable.

 

[canyonblue]

Yes, I believe the strike vote was indeed a sham. I now believe that if we had gone on strike, we likely would have had a significant amount of the pilot group cross within a few days. But even more likely is that as a cooling off period progressed and got closer to the deadline, pilots would have been coming out of the woodwork demanding that the MEC settle for whatever management offered. That's essentially why the MEC ended up taking Gary's second offer. They didn't want to, but the pressure from the pilot group was overwhelming. The very same pilots who sent emails in July telling the MEC to vote down AIP1 without sending it out for a pilot vote were clamoring for a vote after Gary went public with the threats. The fear was palpable.

Ok, thanks for the reply. Not that I always agree with you, but Union work isn't easy if the masses are running in different directions.

 

[redflyer65]

Still talking out of your ass, I see. The MEC voted down the first deal, after a whole hell of a lot of debate and stress, because they didn't believe that it was a fair deal, and because they believed that a better deal was achievable in arbitration. It's that simple. No convoluted plans, no sinister strategies, just reps doing what they thought was best for their members.

That's your response?

The MEC sent the MC to negotiate a deal, right? The process went on for months, not days.......MONTHS. There's no way the MEC didn't have a accurate idea of where things were headed.

After that package was brought back to Atlanta for the MEC to review, all of the sudden (after months mind you) they were shocked at what they saw. What the MC agreed to in principle was completely foreign and heinous to the MEC? That's basically what you arguing. That the MEC was soooo out of touch they had no clue about what was happening.....month after month after month.

Let's look at it another way..

If they DID know what was coming down the line, why didn't they adjust their desires to get a deal that was more palatable? Or not agree at all?

You can't have it both ways. You say they were just doing their job. What job? Sending the MC to get a crappy agreement? Not monitoring the progress? Then throwing their hands up in the air and throwing the MC under the bus in the process..

or just drawing things out to get to arbitration? I distinctly remembering that it took them several DAYS to decide how to vote. Wouldn't you already have a general idea of how to vote before the paperwork hit the desk? What a disaster for the line pilots. Embarrassing actually.

 

[PCL_128]

That's your response?

The MEC sent the MC to negotiate a deal, right? The process went on for months, not days.......MONTHS. There's no way the MEC didn't have a accurate idea of where things were headed.

After that package was brought back to Atlanta for the MEC to review, all of the sudden (after months mind you) they were shocked at what they saw. What the MC agreed to in principle was completely foreign and heinous to the MEC? That's basically what you arguing. That the MEC was soooo out of touch they had no clue about what was happening.....month after month after month.

Let's look at it another way..

If they DID know what was coming down the line, why didn't they adjust their desires to get a deal that was more palatable? Or not agree at all?

You can't have it both ways. You say they were just doing their job. What job? Sending the MC to get a crappy agreement? Not monitoring the progress? Then throwing their hands up in the air and throwing the MC under the bus in the process..

or just drawing things out to get to arbitration? I distinctly remembering that it took them several DAYS to decide how to vote. Wouldn't you already have a general idea of how to vote before the paperwork hit the desk? What a disaster for the line pilots. Embarrassing actually.

Red, the problem with everything you're saying is that you're assuming a certain level of competence. What I'm telling you is that both the MC and MEC had virtually no experience. The people at the bargaining table had no bargaining experience, and the people who were supposed to be supervising them had none, either. The average amount of time that the members of the MEC had served in an elected position was measured in months, not years.

 

[27 driver]

Ah, no ... we have 737 guys training on the 717 because SWA/ALPA will not relieve that requirement for guys who bid 717TBA prior to coming over to SWA on the 737. No one in that boat has any option to NOT train.

Bid what you want and want what you bid. I don't want ALPA to give relief. If SW wants relief they need to negotiate a deal. Otherwise the 73 guys are getting what they were awarded.

 

[SWA717]

The first agreement, the one the ALPA turned down had...

10 year CA seats for AAI.
10 base fences for ATL for AAI.
SW pay and benefits almost immediately.

The second deal wasn't so generous.

Zero CA seats, no fences what so ever. No SW pay until transitioned over. Slightly more seniority for AAI, slightly.

ALPA thought they knew better. Everyone else paid a heavy price for that arrogance.

Exactly,

Slick and his sidekick Witch, plus the drunk in Orlando thought they had Gary by the balls. And sadly, some of the idiots still fighting out on our union forum thought they had Gary's number. How quickly we learned.