Southwest Line on Credit?

[Ualexpress]

Sounds like a great program. I was just curious "who" was inputting the data. So I assume the rampers just delivery the cargo load sheet and then the rest is up to the pilots.

That is exactly correct. Rampers usually deliver the ramp load to the pilots a few minutes before door close and the pilot inputs it along with fuel on board, Pax, runways anticipated (up to 3 can be inputed), runway conditions, and various power settings desired for T.O. (TO1, TO2, and/or Assumed Temp). Usually results are returned in 15-30 seconds. The pilot then Accepts or Rejects the results. If accepted the flap setting and Vspeeds are populated in the takeoff page. The ZFW is populated in the Perf page.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I was just going to tell him to F off. But I like what you said better.

He said the same thing but wasted more time typing it. The feeling is mutual.

 

[humveedriver]

Sounds like a great program. I was just curious "who" was inputting the data. So I assume the rampers just delivery the cargo load sheet and then the rest is up to the pilots.

That's it. Peep count, bag count and fuel. Like the OPC you will have some pilot inputed options like manual speed brakes and anti ice. Mel/CDLs are added by the dispatcher. All performance considerations are computed for you, like climb gradient. With any automated system it's going to make you lazy and dumb, so you will develop your own sanity check to make sure it's accurate.And it works just as good in Mexico City as it does in ATL. In fact the only occasional hiccup is antennae location at the station. Currently I think MDW is the only one with spotty coverage at the gate, but numbers come up after push. It will boil down to IPad replacing the OPC or Aerodata in a likelihood.

 

[redflyer65]

How long are you going to keep up these little snipes?

honestly, hiw long are you going to run with the ilkusion that you got screwed and swa pilots are so awful?
Nobody said we were better, we said the job was better and more difficult to get. We were also the buying carrier. All of which are seniority issues. What's more arrogant is AT pilots getting their company bought and fully expecting to screw with the process and have the final outcome be Relative seniority, or what was it that PCL said: ' worst case scenario for AT pilots should be date of hire(!)' really?

Your problem is buying into alpa's divisive expectations about what you "deserved"

No idea what you line guys actually wanted in that deal,
seriously, none...

Exactly Wave!

ALPA's game plan was to run out the clock on the whole process. They had no desire to pass ANYTHING that came from the MC. NONE.

They knew the SWAPA contract would be there in the end. Money, QOL, stabilty, etc. All of it. Just get it to arbitration, at all cost.

Bad move for the 1700 pilots of Airtran. Every one of them.

Done and over.

 

[HA25]

Exactly Wave!

ALPA's game plan was to run out the clock on the whole process. They had no desire to pass ANYTHING that came from the MC. NONE.

They knew the SWAPA contract would be there in the end. Money, QOL, stabilty, etc. All of it. Just get it to arbitration, at all cost.

Bad move for the 1700 pilots of Airtran. Every one of them.

Done and over.

sorry to have to ask, but can someone give me the cliff notes version of what exactly the Air Tran pilots got? I know a friend of mine that was hired and made captain in 05 is still going to remain a captain post-WN merger, so that doesn't sound bad to me on it's face, or am I missing something?

What's the domicile fence like, is there one?

 

[redflyer65]

The first agreement, the one the ALPA turned down had...

10 year CA seats for AAI.
10 base fences for ATL for AAI.
SW pay and benefits almost immediately.

The second deal wasn't so generous.

Zero CA seats, no fences what so ever. No SW pay until transitioned over. Slightly more seniority for AAI, slightly.

ALPA thought they knew better. Everyone else paid a heavy price for that arrogance.

 

[HA25]

The first agreement, the one the ALPA turned down had...

10 year CA seats for AAI.
10 base fences for ATL for AAI.
SW pay and benefits almost immediately.

The second deal wasn't so generous.

Zero CA seats, no fences what so ever. No SW pay until transitioned over. Slightly more seniority for AAI, slightly.

ALPA thought they knew better. Everyone else paid a heavy price for that arrogance.

Deal one was what I guess my friend told me about last year... deal two sounds VERY bad.... there are 20+ year CA's there, right? so now they're all FO's?

Also, this 10 year fence... does it have gates? or is there a total base bid freeze in and out for 10 years? I don't get it..

 

[redflyer65]

Deal one was what I guess my friend told me about last year... deal two sounds VERY bad.... there are 20+ year CA's there, right? so now they're all FO's?

Also, this 10 year fence... does it have gates? or is there a total base bid freeze in and out for 10 years? I don't get it..

The fence was in Deal #1. It doesn't exsist at this point. I can't remember about bidding around the fence because as soon as ALPA voted it down, it didn't matter anymore.

NOW...as AAI guys transistion over, they are FO's. After 2015, if there is a NEW CA seat, they can bid for it...if their seniority can hold it. Jan 2015 you hold what you can hold.

 

[humveedriver]

sorry to have to ask, but can someone give me the cliff notes version of what exactly the Air Tran pilots got? I know a friend of mine that was hired and made captain in 05 is still going to remain a captain post-WN merger, so that doesn't sound bad to me on it's face, or am I missing something?

What's the domicile fence like, is there one?

Your friend will first downgrade to FO and then be eligible for upgrade in 2015 if there is a vacancy. If that vacancy is created by an AT transition aircraft, then he/she is not eligible for that vacancy. It has to be through retirements or growth for us to reupgrade. It is possible you spoke to your friend prior to SWA announcing the removal of the 717 from their fleet, that changed alot of expectations on both sides.

 

[PCL_128]

Exactly Wave!

ALPA's game plan was to run out the clock on the whole process. They had no desire to pass ANYTHING that came from the MC. NONE.

They knew the SWAPA contract would be there in the end. Money, QOL, stabilty, etc. All of it. Just get it to arbitration, at all cost.

Bad move for the 1700 pilots of Airtran. Every one of them.

Done and over.

Still talking out of your ass, I see. The MEC voted down the first deal, after a whole hell of a lot of debate and stress, because they didn't believe that it was a fair deal, and because they believed that a better deal was achievable in arbitration. It's that simple. No convoluted plans, no sinister strategies, just reps doing what they thought was best for their members.

 

[HA25]

Your friend will first downgrade to FO and then be eligible for upgrade in 2015 if there is a vacancy. If that vacancy is created by an AT transition aircraft, then he/she is not eligible for that vacancy. It has to be through retirements or growth for us to reupgrade. It is possible you spoke to your friend prior to SWA announcing the removal of the 717 from their fleet, that changed alot of expectations on both sides.

curious, based on the contract pay that will go into effect shortly after the merger is complete, will he get a net pay increase? decrease? etc? What about retirement plan..

In a nutshell, will he be better off financially as a FO at southwest with the their contract, than AAI under their contract as a CA?

because really that is ultimately what's important, what's on your W2..

 

[waveflyer]

Still talking out of your ass, I see. The MEC voted down the first deal, after a whole hell of a lot of debate and stress, because they didn't believe that it was a fair deal, and because they believed that a better deal was achievable in arbitration. It's that simple. No convoluted plans, no sinister strategies, just reps doing what they thought was best for their members.

Unfortunately for that line, which you legally need to say so don't bother defending it- I have a LOT more experience with alpa than you do-
And every single move you made was predictable.
Any of us that have worked with alpa before understood that - and it went down exactly as we thought- they have zero motivation to facilitate things smoothly- none- why not extend even if GK wants a negotiated deal- why not delay delay- why not poison the well?

GK could have used the same exact leverage and stapled you.
Do you disagree?

What he used instead was a reasonably good estimation of what an arbitrator would come up with, using consultants with decades of experience in these things to come up with a fair list-
You think it's unfair-
I for damn sure think its unfair to Swapa pilots-
So we all have pointless stupid opinions. Yay for us.

So just answer one question:
If GK were so interested in screwing ATALPA why didn't he use the same leverage he used to get the 84% vote and use it to staple you.

I'm pretty sure 51% of you would vote for a staple vs being jobless- so why didn't he, if he's Lorenzo reborn?

Btw- take down your signature- you just look like a VERY YOUNG immature idiot to those of us who have been in the industry long enough to know the Lorenzo legacy, to even try and compare southwest to what that guy did.

Seriously, unless you want to keep showing your ass- take it down-

What's the point of it anyway?

 

[waveflyer]

curious, based on the contract pay that will go into effect shortly after the merger is complete, will he get a net pay increase? decrease? etc? What about retirement plan..

In a nutshell, will he be better off financially as a FO at southwest with the their contract, than AAI under their contract as a CA?

because really that is ultimately what's important, what's on your W2..

Not to some HA. Definitely not to some. They need the stripes and they're entitled to just about everything.
But to answer your question, before the merger was announced AT was in negotiations and voted 95% to strike-
Under that contract FOs at SWA made about the same as AT capts.
A month after the acquisition was announced they got a new contract- and did better though far shy of Swapa $.

They currently pretend that they would've got a much better contract if it weren't for SWA buying them-

The drawdown of AT I'm sure sucks however-

It's never fun to be at a shrinking base or airline- closing one out is tough and the schedules get weird and less lucrative for sure-

Our retirement is 2 fold- profit sharing which hasn't been significant for years- but still something-
And then a 9.3% 401k match- of which it is easily the best performing 401k I've ever seen -
But not a DCP-
Our retirement is the biggest thing we need to improve- most I talk to would rather see retirement improvements over payrate increases at this time

 

[SWA/FO]

Still talking out of your ass, I see. The MEC voted down the first deal, after a whole hell of a lot of debate and stress, because they didn't believe that it was a fair deal, and because they believed that a better deal was achievable in arbitration. It's that simple. No convoluted plans, no sinister strategies, just reps doing what they thought was best for their members.

Playing poker: AirTran Pilots thought 2's were wild. Then everybody threw their cards down. AirTran Pilots had a big smile on their faces..... That was until Gary (The guy that signs the checks) told them that 2's were not WILD... that they only had a pair of twos.... not the strong hand they thought they had.

 

[HA25]

Our retirement is the biggest thing we need to improve- most I talk to would rather see retirement improvements over payrate increases at this time

I agree, we're at 15% now and lagging a bit behind the new DAL/UAL/American contracts which I think hover around 16%...

but thanks for the info... I think the career earnings expectations will likely be what any arbitration is going to hinge on.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Deal one was what I guess my friend told me about last year... deal two sounds VERY bad.... there are 20+ year CA's there, right? so now they're all FO's?

Also, this 10 year fence... does it have gates? or is there a total base bid freeze in and out for 10 years? I don't get it..

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

 

[27 driver]

The million dollar question is how many 717's will still be flying past Jan 1, 2015. Right now there are 36 scheduled to be transitioned in 2015. Will we fly those as SW pilots or will GK park those airplanes. There will be approx 1100 AAI pilots to be trained in 2014 if they stick to the current plan. If GK keeps the 717's flying then those captains might slide into SW as Captains depending on vacancy's at that time. We have AAI 737 guys training on the 717 now in hopes of keeping their 4'th stripe as long as possible. Some may only fly the 717 for a month or so before they transition to SW. Time will tell.

 

[PCL_128]

I have a LOT more experience with alpa than you do-

Funny!

why not extend even if GK wants a negotiated deal- why not delay delay- why not poison the well?

Because certainty is better than uncertainty. Having a negotiated list that was fair was a far superior alternative than going to arbitration where the outcome would be unknown. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to achieve a fair outcome in negotiations, so the MEC decided that arbitration was the only possible avenue. It had nothing to do with delaying or poisoning any well. It was just an MEC doing their job: trying to get the best possible outcome for their members.

GK could have used the same exact leverage and stapled you.
Do you disagree?

No, I don't disagree. I've said it before, in fact. The pilot group was so irrationally afraid after the public threats began that he could have stapled everyone, imposed a permanent B-scale, and prohibited captain upgrades for 20 years, and the pilots still would have voted for it. The level of fear was off the charts.

What he used instead was a reasonably good estimation of what an arbitrator would come up with, using consultants with decades of experience in these things to come up with a fair list-

This is where you go off the reservation. Gary didn't pick this list based upon some complex formulation of what experts came up with. He picked this list because he believed it was the worst thing he could do to us and still not look like a monster. He wanted to continue being able to claim the "Golden Rule," and he thought this was the worst he could do and get away with it. He went a bit too far, though, because you'll have a hard time finding any AirTran pilot who doesn't burst out laughing when someone mentions the Golden Rule. AirTran pilots voted out of fear, nothing else. They'll never trust Gary, Mike, or SWA again. They'll never feel the way about SWA that you do. He shouldn't have pushed the envelope quite so far. Now he has a quarter of his pilot group who don't believe the SWA hype.

I for damn sure think its unfair to Swapa pilots-

Yes, we've already established that you're delusional.

Btw- take down your signature

No thanks.

 

[WOWIdidntKnow]

PCL_128

He went a bit too far, though, because you'll have a hard time finding any AirTran pilot who doesn't burst out laughing when someone mentions the Golden Rule.

Thank goodness you are wrong. I have flown with about 10 former AT pilots, and to a man they have all shown the same great attitude that I have seen from FO's for 20 years. Certainly, they could be blowing smoke up you know where, but when I see the actions and discussions and facial expressions that exude nothing but joy all though out a trip, I gotta say you couldn't be more wrong.

I'm sure i'll run into one of your supposed "bitter" pilots someday, probably when we fly toghether ;-)

Until, then, it is all good

 

[HA25]

If you're still interested in this, then here's a synopsis:

The seniority list was calculated to mix AirTran pilots into the Southwest pilot list. Some complicated formula, that no one can accurately describe, basically took an AirTran pilot's original date of hire, then essentially subtracted so much time, and plugged him into the Southwest list. The AVERAGE loss to an AirTran pilot was 2-1/2 years (but individual pilots lost anywhere from exactly two years to just over three years-I don't know how it was decided). So if the average AirTran pilot was hired there in, say, Jan 2001, then he would have plugged into the Southwest list next to a Southwest Jul 2003 hire. That's the new Southwest seniority list with everyone's name on it.

The big caveat with the second deal (the one that got ratified), is that no former AirTran pilot can be a Southwest captain before January of 2015, and all of them are supposed to be transitioned by then. (Also, they make AirTran ALPA CBA wages and benefits while on that side of the partition, and get SWAPA CBA wages and benefits when on this side.)

Come Jan 1, 2015, there's no fences whatsoever. Any Southwest pilot, whether orig Southwest or former AirTran, can bid any seat and any base that his global seniority can hold. It is expected that all the upgrades from that point for a while will go to former AirTran pilots who were senior enough on the list to be a captain, but were contractually forbidden to do so until that date.

All that make sense? Hope this helps answer your question.

Bubba

thanks, good info.. sounds fair on it's face.