Southwest Line on Credit?

[PCL_128]

It means for each year you had at Airtran, you get 2 years of seniority at SWA.

There number one pilot can flip a coin w/ Rice to see who bids number one.

Not quite. First, seniority across carriers can't be expressed in terms of years. Using years as a measurement only works when looking within a single airline. It is meaningless when combining carriers.

Second, it is entirely possible that an arbitrator's award or a negotiated settlement could have included separate categories, such as aircraft with 117 seats or less and aircraft with more than 117 seats. Doing so would dramatically change the outcome.

 

[HowardBorden]

Not quite. First, seniority across carriers can't be expressed in terms of years. Using years as a measurement only works when looking within a single airline. It is meaningless when combining carriers.

Second, it is entirely possible that an arbitrator's award or a negotiated settlement could have included separate categories, such as aircraft with 117 seats or less and aircraft with more than 117 seats. Doing so would dramatically change the outcome.

I could have lived with whatever the arbitration panel decided if that was where it ended up. We could have made that happen if the agreement did not get member ratification on either side. Don't forget that ALL parties agreed in the process agreement that arbitration was not the preferred route to solving this.

 

[PCL_128]

I could have lived with whatever the arbitration panel decided

Same here. I think everyone on the AirTran side could. Unfortunately, Steve Chase and like-minded people made it quite clear that they would burn the place to the ground if an arbitrator awarded something they were unhappy with, and there can be no doubt that such threats heavily influenced Gary's decision to get involved in a situation that he had no business getting involved in.

Don't forget that ALL parties agreed in the process agreement that arbitration was not the preferred route to solving this.

Of course. Arbitration is never a preferred method of resolving a dispute. But when a solution cannot be agreed upon between the parties themselves, it's the only fair way to deal with it. Having a CEO issue threats and ultimatums is not the path to labor harmony and company prosperity. Having an arbitrator be the "bad guy" and make the decision would have been the smart move.

 

[HowardBorden]

Unfortunately, Steve Chase and like-minded people made it quite clear that they would burn the place to the ground if an arbitrator awarded something they were unhappy with, and there can be no doubt that such threats heavily influenced Gary's decision to get involved in a situation that he had no business getting involved in.

Actually, Chase said the exact opposite. He stated in no uncertain terms that SWAPA would abide by an arbitrated settlement. If you are saying his private comments were different than his public statements, I will counter that posturing and rhetoric are a part of the bargaining process. Public statements hold more water because they are the ones which state the true intentions. Kelly was involved because he was directly invited in the process agreement. If ALPA didn't feel he should have a seat at the table, why in the world was he invited in the process agreement that all parties signed?

 

[HowardBorden]

But when a solution cannot be agreed upon between the parties themselves, it's the only fair way to deal with it.

But a solution was agreed upon. It was voted in by 83% on both sides. All it would have taken was a no vote by either side and arbitration would have been the next step.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, Chase said the exact opposite. He stated in no uncertain terms that SWAPA would abide by an arbitrated settlement.

Yeah, sure he did. And I'm sure we also imagined all of the SWA pilots posting here saying that they wouldn't accept an arbitrated award if it gave us something DOH or better.

I will counter that posturing and rhetoric are a part of the bargaining process.

On that, we agree. Which is why I always favored ignoring the threats from both Chase and Kelly and moving forward with the process.

If ALPA didn't feel he should have a seat at the table, why in the world was he invited in the process agreement that all parties signed?

Being a part of the process is not the same thing as issuing threats and ultimatums.

 

[PCL_128]

But a solution was agreed upon. It was voted in by 83% on both sides. All it would have taken was a no vote by either side and arbitration would have been the next step.

An agreement when a gun is held to your head is not truly an agreement.

 

[HowardBorden]

An agreement when a gun is held to your head is not truly an agreement.

But you just said: "On that, we agree. Which is why I always favored ignoring the threats from both Chase and Kelly and moving forward with the process."

 

[HowardBorden]

Being a part of the process is not the same thing as issuing threats and ultimatums.

Actually that is the major portion of most negotiation processes. The ones that are truly good at it are the ones able to sort through all the rhetoric to determine the true intentions.

 

[PCL_128]

But you just said: "On that, we agree. Which is why I always favored ignoring the threats from both Chase and Kelly and moving forward with the process."

Yes, I did just say that. Which is why I voted NO. I didn't believe the threats, and apparently 17% of the other pilots didn't either. But the vast majority did, and they were scared ^&*%less. A lot of the blame for that lies with the MEC and MC for not properly educating the membership and explaining to them that this was nothing more than bargaining tactics. Hell, the MC joined right in and said idiotic things like "vote yes if you want to work for SWA, and vote no if you don't." When people without experience are steering the ship, hitting an iceberg is inevitable.

 

[scoreboardII]

An agreement when a gun is held to your head is not truly an agreement.

Got a picture of that gun? Thought not. Look, just be honest, you pussied out and voted yes because of a rumor of something bad, if you had any conviction, you would have voted no, knowing you would have had the full weight of the courts on your side in arbitration.

But stop saying you had a gun to your head, that's childish.

 

[PCL_128]

Got a picture of that gun? Thought not. Look, just be honest, you pussied out and voted yes because of a rumor of something bad, if you had any conviction, you would have voted no, knowing you would have had the full weight of the courts on your side in arbitration.

You must have missed it the first 500 times I said it: I voted NO!

But stop saying you had a gun to your head, that's childish.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to make you understand what the yes voters were thinking. Whether you or I think the threats were real or credible is irrelevant. In their minds, they were most assuredly real, and they thought their jobs were on the line.

 

[maxblast72]

Hell, the MC joined right in and said idiotic things like "vote yes if you want to work for SWA, and vote no if you don't."

I thought you were going to have a heart attack in the other room when our favorite Texan uttered those words on a P2P conference call

Don't forget the other Chief Manager of Expectations. The former MEC rep that incessantly scared the crap out of AirTran pilots by stating the AirTran pilots were going to suffer a similar fate to the ATA pilots. He tried to pull a 180 in June 2011 but it was a little too late to turn the ship around by that point.

 

[WOWIdidntKnow]

PCL_128,

Which is why I always favored ignoring the threats from both Chase and Kelly and moving forward with the process.

Yes, threats from Chase can and were ignored.

However, with Kelly, he never threatens -- never. He merely states what will happen when a labor unit has a decision to make.

Gary rarely takes a position, but when he does, you ignore it at your own peril.

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, sure. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.

 

[ASADFW7]

This recalling of the SLI is just a poking a turd to see if there is any more stink left, and finding out even an old turd still stinks if you poke it hard enough.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Maybe it is more your reading comprehension then forgetfulness...and just to clarify, I was commenting on what SL9 proposed not what we got.

I'd call stapling of 650 FOs almost all of them (of approx. 800).

I might call it that as well,... if it was true. Count again, Phred. Every Airtran pilot, CA or FO, was plugged into the Southwest seniority list at a point representing a loss of seniority averaging 2.5 years. All Airtran captains and the first ~450 Airtran FOs have original Southwest guys behind them on the list. After the last orig Southwest pilot on the list (as of the date the acquisition was announced--a 9/2008 hire), there are 370 Airtran pilots who were hired some time before him. They're behind them on the list because of a loss of seniority ranging from 22.5 months down to about 5 months. After that there's ~80 Airtran pilots hired in 2010. Did you want them to go above the Soutwhest 2008 hires? After that are all of both companies' new hires after the date of constructive notice.

So I suppose you can say that 370 Airtran FOs effectively got "stapled," in that their loss of seniority (all less than two years) put them behind the last Southwest FO on the date of constructive notice list.

Wrong again. Paragraph under the seat protections (H.2.e) prevent any AT guy from upgrading until the most junior 2007 (I mistakenly wrote 2005...my bad) hire can upgrade. This might have expired when the ATL fence was dropped but it was a gray area (guess how that would've gone) but was left open ended.

Still crap. Once more for the hard of hearing Phred, this statement of yours is IN NO WAY TRUE OR RELATED to what was actually agreed upon, and is actually happening... which, of course, is exactly what I was discussing with HA25.

This little tidbit, which you keep trying to insinuate is still in play, was from the first agreement, which was signed by exactly nobody. In case you're wondering, that bit was to accomodate those Southwest 2007 hires that you keep harping on, because they ALL had Airtran guys below them on the list holding perpetually protected Southwest captain seats. Not that it matters to anything now.

There you go again...assuming. I was not at AT to chase a fast upgrade or get the most pay. It was QOL in Atlanta. The CA seat and four stripes is not the end-all, be-all to me. I did way more important, better stuff in the military.


Fair enough.

Phred.

I was gonna' say it was YOU with the reading comprehension problem, but I really think it was just you being purposefully disingenuous. HA asked about the deal that was implemented. That is to say, in your words Phred, he actually asked about "what [you] got." He didn't ask about the DOA SLI9. I summarized the actual implemented deal for him. Then you accused me of "forgetting" about some things in the deal, then listed them. Your implication was that they were current and valid, even though they had no part in what we were actually discussing, which was "what we got." The only person talking about SL9 was YOU, Phred, and you pretended it was part of the accepted deal (SL10) to make HA25 think you got a worse deal than you did.

Everthing I said in my first post was correct.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

PCL,
You actually thought you could be bought by a company 4 times your size with pilots who've been at the company more than twice as long as your most senior pilot and you would all be ratio'd in???

There is absolutely no mystery why you are upset if you believe that. But it's kind of like being pissed when you find out the earth isn't the center of the universe.

That IS an IRRESPONSIBLE expectation for a union leader to represent.

You really thought you could be bought and improve on where you'd be at your date of hire? That was a realistic expectation of yours? I just want to be clear and to understand. How does that meet the definition of "fair" to you?

 

[maxblast72]

You actually thought you could be bought by a company 4 times your size with pilots who've been at the company more than twice as long as your most senior pilot and you would all be ratio'd in???

Actually Waveflyer, those things wouldn't have mattered much in the arbitration hearing. What would have mattered in my opinion were company balance sheet strength (ie, job security), pay and QOL of the pilots jobs brought by both groups, and the numbers of mandatory age 65 retirements brought by both groups.

I will agree with you that expectations on our side were not kept in check. I don't think expectations were kept in check on your side either. That is probably why there are many on both sides that are so upset.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,
You actually thought you could be bought by a company 4 times your size with pilots who've been at the company more than twice as long as your most senior pilot and you would all be ratio'd in???

There is absolutely no mystery why you are upset if you believe that. But it's kind of like being pissed when you find out the earth isn't the center of the universe.

That IS an IRRESPONSIBLE expectation for a union leader to represent.

You really thought you could be bought and improve on where you'd be at your date of hire? That was a realistic expectation of yours? I just want to be clear and to understand. How does that meet the definition of "fair" to you?

Wave, had we gone to arbitration, something between DOH and a ratio'd list is exactly what would have transpired. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but deep down, you know it to be true.

 

[Amberjack]

Let me sum this entire thread up.

AIP 2 would be fine had there never been an AIP 1; however, AIP 2 sucks because AIP 1 was, in hindsight, amazing.

 

[Ty Webb]

This recalling of the SLI is just a poking a turd to see if there is any more stink left, and finding out even an old turd still stinks if you poke it hard enough.

Who are you calling a turd?

:laugh:

 

[canyonblue]

Wave, had we gone to arbitration, something between DOH and a ratio'd list is exactly what would have transpired. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but deep down, you know it to be true.

WOW! You need to stop calling other people delusional. :nuts:

 

[Phlintstone]

I was gonna' say it was YOU with the reading comprehension problem, but I really think it was just you being purposefully disingenuous. HA asked about the deal that was implemented. That is to say, in your words Phred, he actually asked about "what [you] got." He didn't ask about the DOA SLI9. I summarized the actual implemented deal for him. Then you accused me of "forgetting" about some things in the deal, then listed them. Your implication was that they were current and valid, even though they had no part in what we were actually discussing, which was "what we got." The only person talking about SL9 was YOU, Phred, and you pretended it was part of the accepted deal (SL10) to make HA25 think you got a worse deal than you did.

Everthing I said in my first post was correct.

Bubba

Alright, I put down the scotch and reread everything. You are right in that you were listing the details of 10 and threw in a few differences from 9. That is where my speed reading led me astray. I owe you an apology and am man enough to admit when I screw up.

I get spooled up when you guys bring up only the good points for AT (pay and 717CA seats) but leave out what were a couple of poison pills when you write about the first offer. BTW, what I wrote about the first offer and limiting OAT guys from upgrading is very true...go read it. For those as slow as me and the folks from Rio Linda, I am talking about SL9 not what we got.

Feel better now? I know I do...what was that number for the truck driving school?

Phred

 

[SWA Bubba]

Alright, I put down the scotch and reread everything. You are right in that you were listing the details of 10 and threw in a few differences from 9. That is where my speed reading led me astray. I owe you an apology and am man enough to admit when I screw up.

I get spooled up when you guys bring up only the good points for AT (pay and 717CA seats) but leave out what were a couple of poison pills when you write about the first offer. BTW, what I wrote about the first offer and limiting OAT guys from upgrading is very true...go read it. For those as slow as me and the folks from Rio Linda, I am talking about SL9 not what we got.

Feel better now? I know I do...what was that number for the truck driving school?

Phred

Apology accepted for the misunderstanding-induced indgnation.

To be honest, I try to stay out of this line of FI bantering, due to its serving no constructive purpose, considering it's a settled deal now. However, when I tried to explain the basic setup of what was agreed upon to HA25, and then you posted your reply, it seemed like a purposeful twisting of facts to mislead a neutral third party. Hence my reply.

I never liked the first deal either. It was too full of carve-outs and limitations/fences to be palatable. There would be way too many complications and individual pain for years to come; casualties of the Law of Unintended Consequences (LOUC). There were a lot of parts that weren't fair to either side.

I did reread the section on OAT upgrades, although I remembered it from the first time. It's an example of what I was talking about. The carve out for those 2007 OSW guys was to account for the stipulation that all OAT captains got a Southwest captain seat, regardless of seniority on the new list. It was unpalatable to OSW guys that 5-6 years' Airtran service bought a Southwest captain seat, while 8-9 years' Southwest service did not. Those 2007 OSW hires had OAT guys junior to them on the list holding captain seats, so that paragraph promised them upgrades before any more OAT guys. Who got hurt with that particular tidbit? Why, the OAT guys above that line who hadn't upgraded for whatever reason. Now they'd have OSW guys below them on the list upgrading in future years before they would be allowed to. See what I mean? LOUC. Generalizations that hurt individuals.

In my opinion, "fair" (or at least as fair as posible) would have been figuring out what formula equated Airtran service to Southwest service (considering compensaiton, quality of life, career expectations, job stability, etc.) and then made the list with an "appropriate" DOH adjustment. At that point, if an OAT guy was senior enough to be a captain, then he could without waiting until 2015. If not, then he lost the seat, but was pay protected to whatever he was making as an Airtran captain. He would lose a stripe, but not money, and possibly have better QOL (senior FO bidding, vacations, etc). No windfall, but no loss either. It would also make it simpler in the future--no carve-outs, no special categories, etc. One list, and then upgrade and bid different bases when your seniority allows.

Obviously, figuring out "appropriate" DOH adjustment would be the point of negotiation. OAT guys may argue that the average 2.5 years' loss was too much, while OSW guys may argue that it should have been more. At least it would have been a simpler argument, anyway--only one thing to bitch about.

Bubba

 

[UALX727]

Just to clarify, that 2.5 year loss of seniority from date of hire...

Most AirTran captains lost between 3-4 years off of date of hire. The AirTran f.o.'s who had been more recently hired didn't lose nearly that, they kind of skewed the average a bit being they hadn't been here as long. So I would say 2.5 years on average may be accurate for the entire AirTran list. However, different parts of the list(the more senior guys) got the bigger chop from date of hire. For example, I lost 3 years, 3 months from date of hire.

Not sure if everyone knows this, but we have a reeeallly smart guy here at Airtran by the name of Jamie. He put together a website called myseniority.com
Just put your side of fence(Airtran or SWA) and employee number into it and it will calculate a bunch of cool stuff for you seniority-wise.

 

[StopNTSing]

Yeah, sure. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.

You think it was all a big bluff? I bought then, and still buy now, that GK would have Transtard' your butts long before he would have let this go to arbitration. He made it quite clear in his letters to all employees that he did not have to integrate Airtran! I would bet this message was delivered even more unambiguously to the MC by Herb himself.

 

[Just thinking]

He is not reeeally smart...... he is a FRICKIN GENIUS! He also has a very astute side kick working diligently with him on the IPAD program for SWA. We will ALL benefit from their labors..... those two deserve an additional bonus from GK and crew.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bonus? Ha! We pay in smiles and pats on the back.

 

[canyonblue]

He is not reeeally smart...... he is a FRICKIN GENIUS! He also has a very astute side kick working diligently with him on the IPAD program for SWA. We will ALL benefit from their labors..... those two deserve an additional bonus from GK and crew.

Odd that his name doesn't show up on the EFB website. So who is this guy?