Southwest Line on Credit?

[Amberjack]

Let me sum this entire thread up.

AIP 2 would be fine had there never been an AIP 1; however, AIP 2 sucks because AIP 1 was, in hindsight, amazing.

 

[Ty Webb]

This recalling of the SLI is just a poking a turd to see if there is any more stink left, and finding out even an old turd still stinks if you poke it hard enough.

Who are you calling a turd?

:laugh:

 

[canyonblue]

Wave, had we gone to arbitration, something between DOH and a ratio'd list is exactly what would have transpired. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but deep down, you know it to be true.

WOW! You need to stop calling other people delusional. :nuts:

 

[Phlintstone]

I was gonna' say it was YOU with the reading comprehension problem, but I really think it was just you being purposefully disingenuous. HA asked about the deal that was implemented. That is to say, in your words Phred, he actually asked about "what [you] got." He didn't ask about the DOA SLI9. I summarized the actual implemented deal for him. Then you accused me of "forgetting" about some things in the deal, then listed them. Your implication was that they were current and valid, even though they had no part in what we were actually discussing, which was "what we got." The only person talking about SL9 was YOU, Phred, and you pretended it was part of the accepted deal (SL10) to make HA25 think you got a worse deal than you did.

Everthing I said in my first post was correct.

Bubba

Alright, I put down the scotch and reread everything. You are right in that you were listing the details of 10 and threw in a few differences from 9. That is where my speed reading led me astray. I owe you an apology and am man enough to admit when I screw up.

I get spooled up when you guys bring up only the good points for AT (pay and 717CA seats) but leave out what were a couple of poison pills when you write about the first offer. BTW, what I wrote about the first offer and limiting OAT guys from upgrading is very true...go read it. For those as slow as me and the folks from Rio Linda, I am talking about SL9 not what we got.

Feel better now? I know I do...what was that number for the truck driving school?

Phred

 

[SWA Bubba]

Alright, I put down the scotch and reread everything. You are right in that you were listing the details of 10 and threw in a few differences from 9. That is where my speed reading led me astray. I owe you an apology and am man enough to admit when I screw up.

I get spooled up when you guys bring up only the good points for AT (pay and 717CA seats) but leave out what were a couple of poison pills when you write about the first offer. BTW, what I wrote about the first offer and limiting OAT guys from upgrading is very true...go read it. For those as slow as me and the folks from Rio Linda, I am talking about SL9 not what we got.

Feel better now? I know I do...what was that number for the truck driving school?

Phred

Apology accepted for the misunderstanding-induced indgnation.

To be honest, I try to stay out of this line of FI bantering, due to its serving no constructive purpose, considering it's a settled deal now. However, when I tried to explain the basic setup of what was agreed upon to HA25, and then you posted your reply, it seemed like a purposeful twisting of facts to mislead a neutral third party. Hence my reply.

I never liked the first deal either. It was too full of carve-outs and limitations/fences to be palatable. There would be way too many complications and individual pain for years to come; casualties of the Law of Unintended Consequences (LOUC). There were a lot of parts that weren't fair to either side.

I did reread the section on OAT upgrades, although I remembered it from the first time. It's an example of what I was talking about. The carve out for those 2007 OSW guys was to account for the stipulation that all OAT captains got a Southwest captain seat, regardless of seniority on the new list. It was unpalatable to OSW guys that 5-6 years' Airtran service bought a Southwest captain seat, while 8-9 years' Southwest service did not. Those 2007 OSW hires had OAT guys junior to them on the list holding captain seats, so that paragraph promised them upgrades before any more OAT guys. Who got hurt with that particular tidbit? Why, the OAT guys above that line who hadn't upgraded for whatever reason. Now they'd have OSW guys below them on the list upgrading in future years before they would be allowed to. See what I mean? LOUC. Generalizations that hurt individuals.

In my opinion, "fair" (or at least as fair as posible) would have been figuring out what formula equated Airtran service to Southwest service (considering compensaiton, quality of life, career expectations, job stability, etc.) and then made the list with an "appropriate" DOH adjustment. At that point, if an OAT guy was senior enough to be a captain, then he could without waiting until 2015. If not, then he lost the seat, but was pay protected to whatever he was making as an Airtran captain. He would lose a stripe, but not money, and possibly have better QOL (senior FO bidding, vacations, etc). No windfall, but no loss either. It would also make it simpler in the future--no carve-outs, no special categories, etc. One list, and then upgrade and bid different bases when your seniority allows.

Obviously, figuring out "appropriate" DOH adjustment would be the point of negotiation. OAT guys may argue that the average 2.5 years' loss was too much, while OSW guys may argue that it should have been more. At least it would have been a simpler argument, anyway--only one thing to bitch about.

Bubba

 

[UALX727]

Just to clarify, that 2.5 year loss of seniority from date of hire...

Most AirTran captains lost between 3-4 years off of date of hire. The AirTran f.o.'s who had been more recently hired didn't lose nearly that, they kind of skewed the average a bit being they hadn't been here as long. So I would say 2.5 years on average may be accurate for the entire AirTran list. However, different parts of the list(the more senior guys) got the bigger chop from date of hire. For example, I lost 3 years, 3 months from date of hire.

Not sure if everyone knows this, but we have a reeeallly smart guy here at Airtran by the name of Jamie. He put together a website called myseniority.com
Just put your side of fence(Airtran or SWA) and employee number into it and it will calculate a bunch of cool stuff for you seniority-wise.

 

[StopNTSing]

Yeah, sure. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.

You think it was all a big bluff? I bought then, and still buy now, that GK would have Transtard' your butts long before he would have let this go to arbitration. He made it quite clear in his letters to all employees that he did not have to integrate Airtran! I would bet this message was delivered even more unambiguously to the MC by Herb himself.

 

[Just thinking]

He is not reeeally smart...... he is a FRICKIN GENIUS! He also has a very astute side kick working diligently with him on the IPAD program for SWA. We will ALL benefit from their labors..... those two deserve an additional bonus from GK and crew.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bonus? Ha! We pay in smiles and pats on the back.

 

[canyonblue]

He is not reeeally smart...... he is a FRICKIN GENIUS! He also has a very astute side kick working diligently with him on the IPAD program for SWA. We will ALL benefit from their labors..... those two deserve an additional bonus from GK and crew.

Odd that his name doesn't show up on the EFB website. So who is this guy?

 

[Just thinking]

Jamie and Sean. Two great guys who have worked really hard improving the on line computer training here at AirTran. Any organization is lucky to have them.

 

[HowardBorden]

Jamie and Sean. Two great guys who have worked really hard improving the on line computer training here at AirTran. Any organization is lucky to have them.

I was told it was an AT guy that reprogrammed how the flight plan portion of the release prints out, moving relevant info to the first page. All the info was there before, but you had to go searching through several pages to find landing elevation, winds aloft and ISA deviation info. It may seem insignificant but when you fly 12 legs on a trip not having to search for the data adds up. Whoever did that small thing, I appreciate it and am hopeful there is more to come.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, had we gone to arbitration, something between DOH and a ratio'd list is exactly what would have transpired. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but deep down, you know it to be true.

Delusional, to your own groups detriment-

Arrogant as hell PCL - some of us worked our butts off to get here and you're out spreading that you deserve a bump over your doh ? Amazing- I wish we had gone to arbitration so you woul know how wrong you are.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I was told it was an AT guy that reprogrammed how the flight plan portion of the release prints out, moving relevant info to the first page. All the info was there before, but you had to go searching through several pages to find landing elevation, winds aloft and ISA deviation info. It may seem insignificant but when you fly 12 legs on a trip not having to search for the data adds up. Whoever did that small thing, I appreciate it and am hopeful there is more to come

.

It was a group of line pilots and dispatchers that developed the new release format. A grat guy from AT Dispatch headed up the project and was very receptive to the pilot inputs.

 

[redflyer65]

Wave, had we gone to arbitration, something between DOH and a ratio'd list is exactly what would have transpired. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but deep down, you know it to be true.

Your completely out to lunch with this statement.

Airtran was a fine company, but the difference in career earnings and company longevity/earning/stability where night and day. And that would have come thru loud and clear to any arbitor.

This wasn't a Delta/NW list merger. Sorry, never was a merger of equals......as much as you'd like to think so.

 

[PCL_128]

WOW! You need to stop calling other people delusional. :nuts:

If any of you truly believed that, then there wouldn't have been the push to avoid arbitration. We all know how this would have turned out, no matter how much you try to deny it.

 

[HowardBorden]

If any of you truly believed that, then there wouldn't have been the push to avoid arbitration. We all know how this would have turned out, no matter how much you try to deny it.

None of us knew how it would have turned out because only the arbitration panel that was never called into the game could know that. The person avoiding arbitration was Kelly. He didn't want a drawn out and protracted process. He knew he had the ability to present his own offer and as it turned out, he put a deal on the table that he was able to garner colossal support for. No matter how you look at it he was very successful in pulling off his plan. You may not like the deal, you may not like the tactics, you may not like the vote results but you cannot deny how successful the execution was.

 

[scoreboardII]

If any of you truly believed that, then there wouldn't have been the push to avoid arbitration. We all know how this would have turned out, no matter how much you try to deny it.

80 plus percent on your side say otherwise.

I here that last step off the edge of the flat Earth you live on is pretty long...

 

[bluesideup1]

If any of you truly believed that, then there wouldn't have been the push to avoid arbitration. We all know how this would have turned out, no matter how much you try to deny it.

Tell me again why the two other labor groups that went to arbitration under the McCaskill/Bonds did not get anywhere near what you thought would happen. I believe the arbitrator gave the Mechanics from Airtran about the same reduction in seniority that you got when they come over to the SW side. The arbitrator made it apparently clear this was not a merger of equals and the only thing that Airtran had to negotiate with was their seniority.

 

[slaquer5]

If any of you truly believed that, then there wouldn't have been the push to avoid arbitration. We all know how this would have turned out, no matter how much you try to deny it.

The CEO of SWA made that decision ,not the SWA pilots. It is his job to direct the company in a healthy manor.I am sure he did not want another USAir/AW .


He has a Masters, you have a HS diploma . You tell me who most would follow with business decisions ?