Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[PCL_128]

Now, why would the Process Agreement be worded in such a way that "all deals are off" if a NEGOTIATED settlement is not reached? Why?

It's not written that way.

 

[scoreboardII]

ok then. good luck.

 

[texman]

Good lord, we must be getting close to something. The bickering is getting more focused.

Funny!lol! I will get back to you on facts from your last post.

 

[ivauir]

It's not written that way.

Yes it is. Talk to your Merger Committee.

 

[MILF Hunter]

In arbitration, past precedent in other arbitration decisions is not binding on future arbitrators, but pretty much every arbitrator still uses it as a guide, because arbitrators don't like to be innovators.

I'm not so sure about your logic PCL. And apparently, neither is your Merger Committee. An ATN buddy of mine sent me your MC update from the last day or so.

It seems the ATN Merger Committee is starting to 'see the light' with respect to the inherent risks in arbitration. PCL clearly disagrees. Maybe that is the source of his 'difference of opinion' with the MC that led to his recall by the MEC. Perhaps the MEC can 'see the light' as well.


From the ATN ALPA Merger Committee Update:
That means arbitrators aren’t bound by examples of other recent cases, and are instead free to shape an award that best fits the unique circumstances of that particular merger. As arbitrator George Nicolau said in his 1990 ISL award in the FedEx-Flying Tigers merger:
“There are four basic lessons to be learned…; Each case turns on its own facts; that the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable; that the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and that the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance.”

And another thing PCL, despite this thinking, I do believe Nicolau was hired again for other SLI cases.

 

[General Lee]

I'm not so sure about your logic PCL. And apparently, neither is your Merger Committee. An ATN buddy of mine sent me your MC update from the last day or so.

It seems the ATN Merger Committee is starting to 'see the light' with respect to the inherent risks in arbitration. PCL clearly disagrees. Maybe that is the source of his 'difference of opinion' with the MC that led to his recall by the MEC. Perhaps the MEC can 'see the light' as well.


From the ATN ALPA Merger Committee Update:
That means arbitrators aren’t bound by examples of other recent cases, and are instead free to shape an award that best fits the unique circumstances of that particular merger. As arbitrator George Nicolau said in his 1990 ISL award in the FedEx-Flying Tigers merger:
“There are four basic lessons to be learned…; Each case turns on its own facts; that the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable; that the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and that the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance.”

And another thing PCL, despite this thinking, I do believe Nicolau was hired again for other SLI cases.

Why look to Nicolau's 1990 case? Just look at his USAir case. That went very relative after putting the top 500 USAir East guys at the top because they flew larger planes on INTL routes. That was it. I say go for Nicolau. And AT pilots, tell your negotiators to grow a pair. The last few awards have all been relative in some way or another. Maybe not all the way through the list (like USAir), but most of it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ILUVURBANMYERS]

In 1985, Southwest Airlines bought out Muse Air, making it a subsidiary company, and renaming it to TranStar Airlines. Attempts were made to integrate the Transtar pilots with Southwest Airlines pilots, but in a classic example of misapplied BATNA an integrated seniority list was rejected by the Transtar pilot's association. At its peak, TranStar employed some 900 people and served 14 cities, but by mid 1987 the company was still not making a profit, and operations were ceased.


I'm just saying....................................

 

[General Lee]

In 1985, Southwest Airlines bought out Muse Air, making it a subsidiary company, and renaming it to TranStar Airlines. Attempts were made to integrate the Transtar pilots with Southwest Airlines pilots, but in a classic example of misapplied BATNA an integrated seniority list was rejected by the Transtar pilot's association. At its peak, TranStar employed some 900 people and served 14 cities, but by mid 1987 the company was still not making a profit, and operations were ceased.


I'm just saying....................................

Is that a threat? Transtar had MD80s (no similar planes at all), and flew the same type routes SWA did, out of Texas to California. Airtran has an ATL hub, DCA slots, and a lot more of the same type planes (737s). Also, the investment bankers in Manhattan seem to want this done, and GK has stated that many times in the media. You were saying what???????



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bob Dylan]

In 1985, Southwest Airlines bought out Muse Air, making it a subsidiary company, and renaming it to TranStar Airlines. Attempts were made to integrate the Transtar pilots with Southwest Airlines pilots, but in a classic example of misapplied BATNA an integrated seniority list was rejected by the Transtar pilot's association. At its peak, TranStar employed some 900 people and served 14 cities, but by mid 1987 the company was still not making a profit, and operations were ceased.


I'm just saying....................................

Hopefully this won't happen to the trannies, because I'm sure that there are good trannies there that want to be SWA pilots. Unfortunately the greedy ones like Ty and Lear will probably ruin it for everyone.

This could easily happen to Guadaloupe. Take the staple trannies!!

 

[ILUVURBANMYERS]

Guadaloupe holdings was created for a reason..............

 

[On Your Six]

No, not true, SWA considers Airtran inferior, not the pilots, you guys are held in high esteem, don't mix the two even though you work there.

Lets be real on the 717/500 discussion, a 717 is an RJ with RJ range. Our 500 can go coast to coast with gas for a CATIII. AT corporate documents state the 717 is a short haul high frequency regional jet. There is a difference, but it's in the companies, not the pilots.

What are SWA pilots afraid of? Not "not getting something", they are afraid of losing what they have. Period. Let me be clear, if you threaten that, what we have, you will be gone.

Gimmee a break! SWA pilots won't lose a dime here in pay. No paycuts have been thrown out there by management. Will SWA pilots lose upgrade potential? You bet, but that happens in every merger. Talk about sounding spoiled! Grow up, it's business! Stock holders and management want this. You will keep what you have now, but your future will be messed with a bit. It happens. It's business! Godspeed, and grow up.



OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Guadaloupe holdings was created for a reason..............

If that happens, I would GUESS the Airtran investment might go down in value, especially with "unhappy" Airtran pilots and flight attendants.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Not a good idea to have very unhappy employees all in one area. Especially in a service industry that strives for on time performance and gas prices are important. Not good to divide and conquer. Sounds like you might be the next USair.

OYS

 

[Flycatcher99]

Yes it is. Talk to your Merger Committee.

Exactly. Do you really think the process agreement would be written that way literally?

You guys are amazingly naive, not to mention completely uneducated as to the symbiosis that exists between SWA mgmt and the pilot group. GK will extend cordiality to you all if you play nice, but don't think for a second he won't give you alternate employment options if you get uppity, as we are hearing you are. Why would he treat a self-entitled AAI pilot any differently than he would an self-entitled interviewee?

 

[maxthrottle]

I think GK wants Atlanta. And slots on the east coast. He's not in a hurry to bring what some may see as a lot of malcontented unappreciative employees into his fold. I'm sure he knew that AAI was ready to strike before his acquisition decision. So he risks what has always been considered SWA's greatest asset it's culture, in bringing on these employees. But he can't just refuse to bring them over without a rational argument. So he lets this thing go to arbitration, as per the process agreement. Which no one likes. Then to avoid a America West-USAIR debacle, he decides to operate Air Tran separately. Or do something drastic with them. The problem here is GK has Mr. Kelleher, and Ms Barrett looking over his shoulder. Two people who hold no real power but retain a lot of influence, and helped build the company GK runs. I think SWA really does value it's culture. Mr. Kelleher's actions relative to Muse Air are legend. Now Mr. Kelly has to establish himself. He sort of started that with Frontier. Everyone seems to think after the SLI, the battle is over. In fact it may just be starting. One may win the battle and lose the war. GK may feel the need to set a precedent for any future airline it purchases, and Air Tran may be the vehicle it uses to do so. For Air Tran this is gonna be tricky. How much to push for without incurring the wrath of GK. Push to little and possibly give up some seniority. Push to much and possibly lose everything. This is gonna be interesting.

 

[On Your Six]

I think GK wants Atlanta. And slots on the east coast. He's not in a hurry to bring what some may see as a lot of malcontented unappreciative employees into his fold. I'm sure he knew that AAI was ready to strike before his acquisition decision. So he risks what has always been considered SWA's greatest asset it's culture, in bringing on these employees. But he can't just refuse to bring them over without a rational argument. So he lets this thing go to arbitration, as per the process agreement. Which no one likes. Then to avoid a America West-USAIR debacle, he decides to operate Air Tran separately. Or do something drastic with them. The problem here is GK has Mr. Kelleher, and Ms Barrett looking over his shoulder. Two people who hold no real power but retain a lot of influence, and helped build the company GK runs. I think SWA really does value it's culture. Mr. Kelleher's actions relative to Muse Air are legend. Now Mr. Kelly has to establish himself. He sort of started that with Frontier. Everyone seems to think after the SLI, the battle is over. In fact it may just be starting. One may
win the battle and lose the war. GK may feel the need to set a precedent for any future airline it purchases, and Air Tran may be the vehicle it uses to do so. For Air Tran this is gonna be tricky. How much to push for without incurring the wrath of GK. Push to little and possibly give up some seniority. Push to much and possibly lose everything. This is gonna be interesting.

What? You might hope this is the case, but there is a lot of money riding on this. GK wants this, along with Wall St. He probably doesn't want another USAir situation. But honestly, these recent arbitration awards are very telling on what might happen next time. Godspeed to you.



OYS

 

[redflyer65]

For Air Tran this is gonna be tricky. How much to push for without incurring the wrath of GK. Push to little and possibly give up some seniority. Push to much and possibly lose everything. This is gonna be interesting.

This really is gonna be the most interesting angle to watch play out.

PCL,

I understand the agreement perfectly, appearently you do not. Re-read Section VII, in particular part (b). 15 days notice is all that is required by any party to walk away from it. Why was it written that way? I think you might be delusional if you think you can box Gary into a bad merger. Continue at your own peril on that one.

I can guarantee you that the stockholders and investors on Gary's side. If this goes poorly then what legal ground are you going to be on at Guadoloupe? You're at a holding company. Why is that? Still for tax purpose 3 months from now, 1 year from now? This was structured this way for a reason, and for you to ATTEMPT to say otherwise is ridiculous. I truely believe you know that, but just don't want to outright admit it.

 

[redflyer65]

From the ATN ALPA Merger Committee Update:
That means arbitrators aren’t bound by examples of other recent cases, and are instead free to shape an award that best fits the unique circumstances of that particular merger. As arbitrator George Nicolau said in his 1990 ISL award in the FedEx-Flying Tigers merger:
“There are four basic lessons to be learned…; Each case turns on its own facts; that the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable; that the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and that the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance.”

Interesting and very telling.

 

[Skyboy722]

Lear,

You just said this:

Even though THE REST OF THE WORLD sees two similar airlines flying similar equipment in a similar market structure.

... Even though the flying we do in the EXACT SAME AIRCRAFT (or one that's even more advanced and automated with a seating capacity the same as one of the smaller 737's) is actually the same or more involved than what SWA does on a daily basis. I find it somewhat amusing, actually, in a sad sort of way.

And then this:

around $60k a year per pilot

in the same post!

Just a little dose of reality

No kidding.

have a great Father's Day weekend out there.

You too!:beer:

 

[Lear70]

This really is gonna be the most interesting angle to watch play out.

True statement.

PCL,

I understand the agreement perfectly, appearently you do not. Re-read Section VII, in particular part (b). 15 days notice is all that is required by any party to walk away from it. Why was it written that way? I think you might be delusional if you think you can box Gary into a bad merger. Continue at your own peril on that one.

You're not reading it in its ENTIRETY. Here it is in its ENTIRETY so you can understand the full context in how the Process Agreement can be canceled (it can't now unless ALL FOUR PARTIES agree to cancel it):

VII (b) Any party may terminate this agreement by fifteen (15) days written advance notice delivered to all parties at any time FOLLOWING THE TERMINATION OF THE MERGER AGREEMENT.

The merger agreement was the actual purchase of AirTran. That was never terminated (and can't be terminated after the fact), so this clause becomes null and void. The only clause still in effect in this regard is VII (a), requiring all FOUR parties to agree to its termination.

Skyboy, yes, I said we bring the same types of flying in the same types of equipment that Southwest does to the table. People want to paint AirTran as some type of 3rd tier Mexicana Click type of carrier, when it's not. Yes, there's a pay disparity, and I already said in a previous thread that I'm certain that WILL bring some valid arguments to the table. Even the most recent arbitration with PCL/MSA/CGN, arbitrator Bloch said that he gave consideration to the better contract and higher -900 rates that MSA brought to the deal.

No one said the rates wouldn't be a factor, I simply said that the pay rates alone aren't sufficient to try to paint this as an integration between a major airline and a regional airline, as some have asserted. Similar aircraft, similar flying, similar airline, just different in size and pay, just like NWA/DAL, UAL/CAL, even PCL/MSA/CLG. That's all, no hostile agenda.

I just don't understand why this all got hostile again all of the sudden. The threats and intimidation just don't need to be here, especially when we all have to work together when this is all said and done.

So I wish all you father's a Happy Father's Day, fly safe out there, and still waiting to buy beers on the overnight when the dust settles. :beer:

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Exactly. Do you really think the process agreement would be written that way literally?

You guys are amazingly naive, not to mention completely uneducated as to the symbiosis that exists between SWA mgmt and the pilot group. GK will extend cordiality to you all if you play nice, but don't think for a second he won't give you alternate employment options if you get uppity, as we are hearing you are. Why would he treat a self-entitled AAI pilot any differently than he would an self-entitled interviewee?

"...if u get uppity"

What exactly do you mean by that sir? Please expand upon what it is that would constitute us getting "uppity" so that we can be sure and avoid it.

 

[greenpilot]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

 

[Tripower455]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

Well, in order to avoid an "East/West" situation, he'll obviously offer "alternative employment options" to the SWA guys!

 

[MILF Hunter]

From Lear70-

You're not reading it in its ENTIRETY. Here it is in its ENTIRETY so you can understand the full context in how the Process Agreement can be canceled (it can't now unless ALL FOUR PARTIES agree to cancel it):

Quote:
VII (b) Any party may terminate this agreement by fifteen (15) days written advance notice delivered to all parties at any time FOLLOWING THE TERMINATION OF THE MERGER AGREEMENT.



Lear, hopefully you aren't interpretting this Section VII as requiring all four parties to agree to terminate! Please tell me you understand the difference between 4-party consent and one party submitting written notification to the other 3 parties. Hopefully y'all are getting more expertise than this from CryBaby Katz!

Now, I'm not an attorney. But when I read a statement that says "Any party may terminate...by written advanced notice delivered to all parties...", I'm pretty sure it means whay it says.

 

[Daddy]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

I think a negotiated deal is about the only way the airtran guys get integrated. Gary might be the most conservative CEO in the fortune 500 and he has a LOT riding on this. He will do absolutely anything to avoid a poisonous USAir type situation as airtran will not be the only SWA acquisition in the cards. If the SLI goes to arbitration and goes bad and an employee revolt appears likely at SWA, he will do ANYTHING to avoid that scenario. Operating airtran separately and drawing it down is the only real option at that point. This would be the nuclear scenario and I do not expect it to happen, but it CAN happen if there is not a deal made. It sounds like the airtran NC is seeing this, judging from their latest correspondence...I am cautiously optimistic at this point.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Not a good idea to have very unhappy employees all in one area. Especially in a service industry that strives for on time performance and gas prices are important. Not good to divide and conquer. Sounds like you might be the next USair.

OYS

Not to worry OYS, as I'm sure you understand as well as any of us that when we're a new probabtion pilot, we keep our heads down and do our job as good as we can.

And before PCL comes on to say RLA prohibits this, allow me to disagree. I know of nothing that says issues like longevity and probabtion are automatically transferred.

 

[redflyer65]

The merger agreement was completed without termination, so it would revert back to four party cancellation...or a three party cancellation at this point. I did some digging into the SW SEC reports. A difficult but interesting read about how the two seperate LLC's were placed between AAI and SW.

From the attitudes that I'm hearing, it seems like it might play out like this.. The AAI NC will realize that a bird in the hand is worth possibly nothing and attempt to get a favorable vote from the membership. The big question will be how many 'I'll keep my seat' or 'I need my upgrade' pilots will sink the vote...versus those that will be truely happy to accept some concessions but to be on the final list quickly.

I envision the Airtran pilot vote being the most pivotal point. Take it to arbitration and gamble that the outcome (ISL) may never be fully implemented.

 

[redflyer65]

. Operating airtran separately and drawing it down is the only real option at that point. This would be the nuclear scenario and I do not expect it to happen, but it CAN happen if there is not a deal made. It sounds like the airtran NC is seeing this.

I agree 100%. It really would be a nuclear option, and I think most of us would agree to that. And I'm sure not the road that Gary really wants to go down, but it's setup this way for a reason. He is a very conservative CEO who will protect 40yrs of history if push comes to shove. I wouldn't want to be in the line of fire.

 

[texman]

What? You might hope this is the case, but there is a lot of money riding on this. GK wants this, along with Wall St. He probably doesn't want another USAir situation. But honestly, these recent arbitration awards are very telling on what might happen next time. Godspeed to you.



OYS

Thanks for the response to my post earlier. Monwy, yes a lot. But the shareholders voted to furlough in 08. Swa spent 70 mil not to. So money can be spent to save the culture of this airline.

 

[Cometman]

I am an outsider but have been reading posts from both sides. If you believe Lear70 as mister know it all then here is what I take from it:

1. If Airtran accepts what SWA offers and there is a settled SLI then Airtran and ALPA will sit down with SWA and SWAPA and work out the items for the transition. It sounds like there are a lot of benefits to be able to be involved with those items.

2. If it goes to arbitration and it is not good for SWA then SWA and SWAPA will decide on those items for the transition. Unless SWA decides it would not be worth it and keeps them separate.

I guess it is a gamble for Airtran. Good luck. As far as SWAPA it doesn't look like they have a choice. Why settle for less during the negotiation, let it go to arbitration where at least you can decide what happens to the items for the transition. And besides, you have the chance that SWA will not combine the operation.

On the other hand if SWAP accepts something less than what they want or something they would be happy with during SLI negotiations they will also give Airtran and ALPA a voice in the transition items. That would be a double slap in the face.

I would recommend that SWAPA either settle for what they want or let it go to arbitration. Don't give Airtran both a good settlement and a say in the transition items.