Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[On Your Six]

This will look even more rediculous in less than a year.

Yes, yes it probably will. This is what some of your "brothers" actually think. That might not be the case with nice guys like Chase, but it is out there. If a negotiated settlement does come, it will have to be a lot of "give" from their union, and that would not be popular with that side I would guess. If it isnt a fair offer, then I suggest arbitration. I have only watched that process from the outside, but anyone can see that it is the fair way to go IMO. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[PCL_128]

Mesaba, Colgan, Pinnacle....apples to apples to apples

SWA, Airtran....not so much

Really? You might want to look again, because every ridiculous argument that the SWA pilots are making here on FI about how our career expectations are so different are exactly the same between these carriers. Let's take a look:

1. Contracts - The Pinnacle and Mesaba contracts were far superior to the Colgan contract. In fact, Colgan didn't even have a real contract, just a "handbook," because they didn't have their first contract negotiated yet.

2. Length of service - About 90% of the Colgan seniority list was hired in the past 4 years. Again, not even close when compared to Pinnacle, or especially Mesaba. The Mesaba guys are incredibly senior for a regional carrier.

3. Acquired - Pinnacle was the acquiring carrier of both Mesaba and Colgan. The first spot on the new list, though? Held by a Mesaba pilot. In fact, the first two spots are held by Mesaba pilots.

4. Attrition - Colgan continually lost pilots to other regional carriers, including many that went to Pinnacle or Mesaba. By contrast, very few left Pinnacle until they went to a major, and Mesaba had an incredibly low attrition rate, especially in the top half of the list.


You see, all of the same arguments made by SWA pilots to claim that the AirTran pilots have different career expectations, or that we work for different classes of airlines, also applied in this SLI. Did any of it make any difference to the arbitrator, though? Nope, not a bit. Senior Colgan Saab pilots sit right next to senior Mesaba Saab pilots. Senior Pinnacle CRJ900 pilots sit right next to senior Mesaba CRJ900 pilots.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Wall St disagrees with you. Didn't GK sign the Process Agreement allowing for arbitration? I'm just asking.


OYS

Arbitration has nothing to do with integration.

 

[Lonestar]

This will look even more rediculous in less than a year.

I don't think so. Like someone said earlier, GK and MVdV do not want anything but a negotiated list. If it goes to arbitration, then all bets are off.

From the PA:

Section II

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration​

under this Agreement.

 

[On Your Six]

Arbitration has nothing to do with integration.

Is that a part of that famous "Southwest Culture?"


OYS

 

[johnsonrod]

This is gonna get messy. Something tells me the SWA pilots have zero intention on sharing the LUV....

 

[SWA/FO]

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

Clear as a VFR day.

This is gonna get messy. Something tells me the SWA pilots have zero intention on sharing the LUV....

I got news for you, the Pilots are not alone.
Key word: "sharing" - whats tranny sharing with us? Besides their village idiot.

:cartman:

 

[waveflyer]

Alright OYS-

IF this is your example- ill play your hypothetical game-
ENTERTAINMENT ONLY- it's not an awful baseline for swa

Air Tran
1752 pilots and 140 a/c = 12.51 pilots/ac

52 category 1 a/c = 651 cat 1 pilots

and 88 category 2 a/c = 1101 cat 2 pilots

Southwest
5887 pilots and 544 a/c= 10.82 pilots/ac
519 cat 1 a/c= 5617 cat 1 pilots
25 cat 2 a/c= 270 cat2 pilots

So make the wrong assumption (for simplicity) of 50/50 CA/FO ratio-
Top 3081 slots ratio'd at 8.63 swa/1 AT
Next 685 slots go at 4.07 AT/1 SW
Next 3080 back to 8.63 SW/1AT
Last 685 slots back to 4.07/1SW

Now consider our pilot/ac ratio disparity, longevity disparity, pay disparity, the fact that swa is the clear cut acquiring carrier, the hundreds of AT pilots who had apps in at swa, the strike vote and other cultural improvements, more bases, etc etc-

And I can live with the result skewed from your baseline example.

Disclaimer- all #'s are from current APC and not my opinion of how things ought to go- just using OYS's example.
And a big +1 to LET'S GET IT DONE AND GET DOWN TO COMPETING WITH DELTA!

I see the standard delta haters love chiming in with further predictions of our demise--- predictable, but we will be as strong as ever after this is done.

 

[On Your Six]

I don't think so. Like someone said earlier, GK and MVdV do not want anything but a negotiated list. If it goes to arbitration, then all bets are off.

From the PA:

Section II

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration​

under this Agreement.

So the Airtran guys HAVE TO agree to something? GK and Wall St want this done. What was stated about arbitration? It never stated arbitration couldn't happen. Sounds like such a welcoming culture.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Alright OYS-

IF this is your example- it's not awful for swa

Air Tran
1752 pilots and 140 a/c = 12.51 pilots/ac

52 category 1 a/c = 651 cat 1 pilots

and 88 category 2 a/c = 1101 cat 2 pilots

Southwest
5887 pilots and 544 a/c= 10.82 pilots/ac
519 cat 1 a/c= 5617 cat 1 pilots
25 cat 2 a/c= 270 cat2 pilots

So make the wrong assumption (for simplicity) of 50/50 CA/FO ratio-
Top 3081 slots ratio'd at 8.63 swa/1 AT
Next 685 slots go at 4.07 AT/1 SW
Next 3080 back to 8.63 SW/1AT
Last 685 slots back to 4.07/1SW

Now consider our longevity disparity, pay disparity, the fact that swa is the clear cut acquiring carrier, the hundreds of AT pilots who had apps in at swa, the strike vote and other cultural improvements, more bases, etc etc-

And I can live with the result skewed from your baseline example.

And a big +1 to LET'S GET IT DONE AND GET DOWN TO COMPETING WITH
DELTA!

I think PCL's response above should give you that answer. Arbitrators, Bloch for example, don't take size of aquirer, pay, or even the fact that the larger is acquiring or merging with the smaller, into account in the SLI. That didn't seem to matter to him. Colgan had no real contract, and poor pay, yet their Captains were mixed in with other Captains. And is the 735 a cat2 airplane (size) like the 717? It should be. And what is the current Airtran percentage of traffic at ATL? 20%. Delta has 70%. I think both you and Delta will fight to keep those the same, and Southwest really isn't the low cost carrier it once was. Now Southwest has to pay more for Airtran and their employees, which is good for all of us btw. Godspeed to you.


OYS