Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[MILF Hunter]

Really? You might want to look again, because every ridiculous argument that the SWA pilots are making here on FI about how our career expectations are so different are exactly the same between these carriers.

PCL, I think you're a bit off the mark when using the phrase 'career expectations' with regards to anything involving a regional airline. In fact, YOU pretty much prove that simple fact by having left Pinnacle for ATN. Thanks for that. Further, YOU proved that more money, better schedules, better QOL, etc, are more important than keeping your seat and seniority at a stepping-stone airline. Thanks for that as well!

Now, if you want to talk about greater career expectations, let's look at the SEVEN FIGURE GAINS you will enjoy IF SWA and ATN pilots are integrated.

 

[Skyboy722]

What's odd is how SWA pilots view the 717 as a "regional" airplane and yet they don't acknowledge that, in terms of seating, the 737-500 is pretty darn close. It's an attempt to weaken the Air Tran pilots' negotiating position - simple as that. How many 735s does SWA operate? Are SWA pilots paid differently to fly a "trip" on a 735 vs. a 733? I doubt it.

Geez. I was pointing out that the poster did include the -500 as a class II aircraft, same as the 717.

 

[Max Powers]

Since I've got On Your Sixth on ignore I can't speak to his posts, but the title of the thread makes me think...


Mesaba, Colgan, Pinnacle....apples to apples to apples

SWA, Airtran....not so much......Double OYS posts following mine? Are you talking to me, OYS? You're gonna have to speak louder. I can't HEAR you. Oh how I love the Ignore button.

Maybe you can hear this?....Not taking sides here but. GoodTimes you should examine the facts and stop with the simplistic analogies such as apples to apples.

AAI and SWA are indeed different. AirTran was a growth airline with future orders for over 50 737s over the next seven years(30% growth). Whilst SWA had firm orders for replacement aircraft mostly. This will play a huge roll in in the upcoming SLI. SWA has significantly higher pay, but in past binding arbitration that has not played a significant roll. I hope this works out for all but be aware of the hand you have been dealt or you will make a bad bet.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Nice try, SWAPA, Southwest and ATN ALPA signed the agreement with the possibility of arbitration. Back out if the decision doesn't go the way you like it, then have fun on the leper colony with the USAPA pariahs.

Are you saying we would be banished to a life with our contract, a continued strong relationship with our mgmt, and the additional upgrades that will come from staffing your future aircraft deliveries with new pilots hired to our side? Gosh, that's a tough choice.

I just hope you can have fun on your small 717 colony, with your contract, no upgrades, few retirements, and a fleet heading to the desert within this decade.

 

[PCL_128]

The brief was ignored, of course, because in an arbitration there is no such thing as precedent.

That's not true. In arbitration, past precedent in other arbitration decisions is not binding on future arbitrators, but pretty much every arbitrator still uses it as a guide, because arbitrators don't like to be innovators. Forging strange new ground is the best way for an arbitrator to ensure that he doesn't get called for the next arbitration, which means he doesn't get a paycheck. It's far easier for the arbitrators to just look at what's been done in the past and try to stick to something close. That keeps them with a reputation for being fair, which ensures that the jobs keep coming in so they keep getting paid. When an arbitrator issues decisions that are far afield from what's been done in the past, labor attorneys get spooked and try to avoid that arbitrator from then on. Think of the Twomey/Kasher decisions at AirTran that gave us the old reserve pay system under the old contract. Twomey's decision was great for us, but it was completely off the wall. As a result, the management attorneys would strike his name off of every arbitrator list from then until eternity. The same for us with Kasher, after he issued the URP ruling, which was equally as absurd. Arbitrators are generally smart enough to stick with what's already been done, because then they aren't viewed as unpredictable nutjobs who people don't want to hire.

PCL, I think you're a bit off the mark when using the phrase 'career expectations' with regards to anything involving a regional airline.

Don't tell me, tell Mr. Bloch. His award uses the term many times, so he obviously believes that career expectations are quite important, regardless of the fact that it was regional carriers involved.

 

[GoodTimes]

Max,

I can hear you. You can type all day, but you're never going to convince me that AAI and SWA are or where in the same league. The growth vs. replacement argument is a stretch, at best. I'm a pretty simple guy so I'll stick to my simple analogies. Said it before and I'll say it again; SWA and AAI is apples to citrus. I'm fully aware of the hand I've been dealt and I'm very comfortable with my prospects. Thanks.

 

[Lear70]

It's been interesting to watch this exchange for 48 hours to see where everyone is at... What I see from just observing for a couple days? Exactly what I've said the last few months on our internal board:

Southwest pilots consider themselves superior. They consider AAI pilots inferior. Even though THE REST OF THE WORLD sees two similar airlines flying similar equipment in a similar market structure.

When you take away the arguments back and forth, the mud-slinging, the attempt to manage expectations, the threats, the intimidation,,, that's what you're left with. One group that considers another "not in its caliber". Even though the flying we do in the EXACT SAME AIRCRAFT (or one that's even more advanced and automated with a seating capacity the same as one of the smaller 737's) is actually the same or more involved than what SWA does on a daily basis. I find it somewhat amusing, actually, in a sad sort of way. Reminds me a lot of USAirways prior to Nicolau...

As for the two other arguments, Squirrel is correct on the interpretation of the Process Agreement. Further, I bring you this gem, which so many like to ignore and NO ONE has an answer for, as it was signed by ALL 4 parties, including SWAPA and SWA management:

Section VI

(a) Utilizing the foregoing procedures, the Parties WILL implement an orderly combination of the Southwest pilots and the AirTran pilots under a single collective bargaining agreement and representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation system under the RLA.

There is no getting out of integration. All 4 parties, including SWAPA and SWA management agreed to integrate. No matter whether it comes via a negotiated to mediated settlement or arbitration.

HOW SOON that happens, is another matter. Here is an excerpt from our Merger Committee update last night:

In short, the results of binding arbitration are largely unpredictable. In addition, one can’t ignore recent “binding” ISL arbitrations, which are being challenged in court by one party or another, such as the US Airways/America West case and more recent Frontier/Republic award. Taken together, it simply means that both the results and implementation schedule of an arbitrated ISL can be less than certain.

The only thing SWAPA can do is delay integration by following the USAPA / F9 road and challenging the ruling in court for years to come, all while Southwest continues to take our deliveries, growth, and expansion, and we sit out here on roughly the same size network as we already have. You can't shrink us into oblivion, but it can get dragged out for YEARS and we would never get that money back.

That's the threat. That enough people at SWAPA would reneg on their own agreement to adhere to binding arbitration and keep us tied up in court battles for a decade or more, losing around $60k a year per pilot in the process.

Of course, SWA management loses about $200 Million a year by that happening (they'd have to maintain COMPLETELY separate ops to run two separate companies), which is why it's no surprise they want a negotiated settlement as soon as possible. If they DID integrate corporate operations, like NWA / DAL have, whereby the F/A's are still running separately (no mixed F/A crews) while other work groups ARE combined, you'd have the foregone conclusion that the company WAS going to integrate the pilots (partial workgroup integration triggers M/B), it would just be a matter of time until they figured out HOW or until the courts forced it.

Just a little dose of reality... have a great Father's Day weekend out there.

 

[GoodTimes]

Lear,

You say, "there is no getting out of integration"
I say, lets agree to disagree

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

You say, "there is no getting out of integration"
I say, lets agree to disagree

Fair enough. I don't really see GK throwing away the hundreds of millions of dollars it would cost to go that route, but that's just me... opinions vary, and of course you're welcome to yours just as I'm welcome to mine. It's FlightInfo, after all...

:beer:

 

[Bob Dylan]

It's been interesting to watch this exchange for 48 hours to see where everyone is at... What I see from just observing for a couple days? Exactly what I've said the last few months on our internal board:

Southwest pilots consider themselves superior. They consider AAI pilots inferior. Even though THE REST OF THE WORLD sees two similar airlines flying similar equipment in a similar market structure.

When you take away the arguments back and forth, the mud-slinging, the attempt to manage expectations, the threats, the intimidation,,, that's what you're left with. One group that considers another "not in its caliber". Even though the flying we do in the EXACT SAME AIRCRAFT (or one that's even more advanced and automated with a seating capacity the same as one of the smaller 737's) is actually the same or more involved than what SWA does on a daily basis. I find it somewhat amusing, actually, in a sad sort of way. Reminds me a lot of USAirways prior to Nicolau...

As for the two other arguments, Squirrel is correct on the interpretation of the Process Agreement. Further, I bring you this gem, which so many like to ignore and NO ONE has an answer for, as it was signed by ALL 4 parties, including SWAPA and SWA management:


There is no getting out of integration. All 4 parties, including SWAPA and SWA management agreed to integrate. No matter whether it comes via a negotiated to mediated settlement or arbitration.

HOW SOON that happens, is another matter. Here is an excerpt from our Merger Committee update last night:


The only thing SWAPA can do is delay integration by following the USAPA / F9 road and challenging the ruling in court for years to come, all while Southwest continues to take our deliveries, growth, and expansion, and we sit out here on roughly the same size network as we already have. You can't shrink us into oblivion, but it can get dragged out for YEARS and we would never get that money back.

That's the threat. That enough people at SWAPA would reneg on their own agreement to adhere to binding arbitration and keep us tied up in court battles for a decade or more, losing around $60k a year per pilot in the process.

Of course, SWA management loses about $200 Million a year by that happening (they'd have to maintain COMPLETELY separate ops to run two separate companies), which is why it's no surprise they want a negotiated settlement as soon as possible. If they DID integrate corporate operations, like NWA / DAL have, whereby the F/A's are still running separately (no mixed F/A crews) while other work groups ARE combined, you'd have the foregone conclusion that the company WAS going to integrate the pilots (partial workgroup integration triggers M/B), it would just be a matter of time until they figured out HOW or until the courts forced it.

Just a little dose of reality... have a great Father's Day weekend out there.

That's quite a mouthful coming from a guy BEGGING to be stapled to Southwest just before they bought your airline.

 

[Ty Webb]

I agree, Lear. The $200M in savings will be the driving force in the end. Failure to combine the operations and get the entire $400M in savings would trigger a rash of lawsuits from shareholders.

The other issue, which you and I have both mentioned, but has not been addressed by the "cultured" pilots, is what happens with the other employee groups if the pilots can't learn to share their toys.

Pilots don't operate in a vacuum. We should not forget that what we do (and how we do it) affects the other employee groups, and that the example we set will be observed and considered by other employees.

 

[Ty Webb]

deleted.

 

[elcid]

Pilots don't operate in a vacuum. We should not forget that what we do (and how we do it) affects the other employee groups, and that the example we set will be observed and considered by other employees.

Right, like the SWA flight attendants who are just as worried about being thrown under the bus on this deal as the pilots. I have seen a huge change in their attitudes since this was first announced. They've gone from "We're going to Cancun!!!" to "If this SLI goes bad, we're going to burn the place down." Based on the conversations I've had on the van/at the bar with them, they are hoping for an arbitrated award that heavily favors AAI followed by the announcement that there will be no merging of the lists. Most I've talked to think it will be a culture nightmare no matter how it is merged, which would be the end of the airline. Pilots and FA's make up the vast majority of the employees at the airline. The only people who really want this at SWA are in management, if they even truly want it. It's gonna be a long rest of the year. We all have a lot riding on this. I can understand the angst on all sides. Good luck everyone.

 

[scoreboardII]

Southwest pilots consider themselves superior. They consider AAI pilots inferior. .

No, not true, SWA considers Airtran inferior, not the pilots, you guys are held in high esteem, don't mix the two even though you work there.

Lets be real on the 717/500 discussion, a 717 is an RJ with RJ range. Our 500 can go coast to coast with gas for a CATIII. AT corporate documents state the 717 is a short haul high frequency regional jet. There is a difference, but it's in the companies, not the pilots.

What are SWA pilots afraid of? Not "not getting something", they are afraid of losing what they have. Period. Let me be clear, if you threaten that, what we have, you will be gone.

 

[shagadelic]

Right, like the SWA flight attendants who are just as worried about being thrown under the bus on this deal as the pilots. I have seen a huge change in their attitudes since this was first announced. They've gone from "We're going to Cancun!!!" to "If this SLI goes bad, we're going to burn the place down." Based on the conversations I've had on the van/at the bar with them, they are hoping for an arbitrated award that heavily favors AAI followed by the announcement that there will be no merging of the lists. Most I've talked to think it will be a culture nightmare no matter how it is merged, which would be the end of the airline. Pilots and FA's make up the vast majority of the employees at the airline. The only people who really want this at SWA are in management, if they even truly want it. It's gonna be a long rest of the year. We all have a lot riding on this. I can understand the angst on all sides. Good luck everyone.

I have flown with some new FO's hoping for an award that favors AAI as well. They know they are at the bottom....unless we don't integrate.

 

[bladeusa]

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

Have you guys started making your USWAPA lanyards yet ??

Neutral, fair,impartial (ohh and i wish binding but thats a whole different animal & or east pilot ) Sure does seem to scare your side.

I hope we can come to negotiated agreement. But I don't fear arbitration. My only fear is that you will become a cancer like the others who agree to binding arbitration then pull out your manpon, take your ball and go home when it doesn't go your way. If you think you can bully and intimidate this pilot group you obviously don't understand what we go thru on a day to day basis.

ohh and happy anniversary !

 

[GoodTimes]

Ty,

Gotta love the Sneetches. Well played.

I much prefer "Oh! The Places You'll Go"

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Let me be clear, if you threaten that, what we have, you will be gone.

OK tough guy, more threats, we're not taking anything from you (if you lose anything, it will be because you gave it up or an arbitrator thinks differently of your self-worth). BTW, please fill us in on how we will be gone and whom will remove us.

 

[MILF Hunter]

What's odd is how SWA pilots view the 717 as a "regional" airplane and yet they don't acknowledge that, in terms of seating, the 737-500 is pretty darn close. It's an attempt to weaken the Air Tran pilots' negotiating position - simple as that. How many 735s does SWA operate? Are SWA pilots paid differently to fly a "trip" on a 735 vs. a 733? I doubt it.

Let's be perfectly clear here. SWAPA successfully negotiated to fly 25 737-500s (that's less than 5% of the fleet) at the rates for the larger aircraft. ATN unions successfully negotiated to fly larger aircraft at the rates for their smaller RJ. Nice work guys! Surely you won't mind if we do the negotiating for the entire group...IF and WHEN that ever happens!

 

[Ty Webb]

Blah, blah, blah. Threats . . . Blah, blah, blah, hypocrisy . . . blah, blah, blah sabre-rattling.

So, the newly-issued "talking point" is that the 717 is an RJ, huh? That's great. . . . . Well thought-out.

Hope you get to upgrade on the "RJ" and that your characterization of it as an RJ doesn't result in you getting a lower rate when you fly it.

Sheesh.