Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[SWA/FO]

Mr. Nicolau is semi-retired right now, only taking a few cases for UAL here and there. He hasn't done an SLI case since the USAir/AWA case.

No way! I mean he in only in his 80s.... He's got another good 15 years in him!!!

 

[MILF Hunter]

Why look to Nicolau's 1990 case?
Bye Bye---General Lee

I meant to answer this question a day or so ago and forgot.

General, the specific reason I quoted Nicolau's 1990 case is because I copy/pasted it directly from the ATN Merger Committee update. I didn't draw the reference; they did! If you or anyone doubts the application of the logic in this case to the current SWA/ATN SLI, perhaps that should be directed toward their "experts".

Of course, PCL will come on to refute the reference and say precedent will prevail over logic and the unique details in this case. I'm guessing this goes to the root of the disagreements between himself and the ATN Merger Committee that led to his recall. They have apparently recalled their NC Chairman as well. It would seem the MEC is getting their ducks in a row!

 

[Tripower455]

Precedent should definitely be a player in this acquisition!

 

[Lear70]

The merger agreement was completed without termination, so it would revert back to four party cancellation...or a three party cancellation at this point. I did some digging into the SW SEC reports. A difficult but interesting read about how the two seperate LLC's were placed between AAI and SW.

Thanks, glad the info that it takes ALL parties to sign to rescind the Process Agreement is making its way out. If the other SWA pilots on here would take the time to read and understand each section, we'll go a long way towards all getting on the same page.

To the other SWA pilots, yes there ARE nuclear options... reneging on your agreement to adhere to binding arbitration and going the UAir/F9 route is one of them, but backing out of the Process Agreement isn't. I'm still *cautiously optimistic* that our NC's/MC's will hammer something out.

From the attitudes that I'm hearing, it seems like it might play out like this.. The AAI NC will realize that a bird in the hand is worth possibly nothing and attempt to get a favorable vote from the membership. The big question will be how many 'I'll keep my seat' or 'I need my upgrade' pilots will sink the vote...versus those that will be truely happy to accept some concessions but to be on the final list quickly.

It's not the NC (they're not involved at this point), it's our MC, but I think that's what you meant. It will take our Merger Committee agreeing to an SLI (which -Cometman- will also include ALL transition items in Sec VII, including pay, benefits, etc - it's all one voting package according to our MC), and ALSO our 8-voting-member MEC agreeing to same in a separate vote *BEFORE* it reaches the pilots for vote.

My prediction: if it makes it to vote, it'll pass. I trust our MC and MEC will only put something out if they have good reason to. Not going to play Monday Morning Quarterback with whatever they bring; they have all the info; I don't. So the honest-to-God truth is that we have little say-so over whether something comes to us to vote or not. It's all in their hands.

I envision the Airtran pilot vote being the most pivotal point. Take it to arbitration and gamble that the outcome (ISL) may never be fully implemented.

Funny, we think the same thing on your side... that your vote will be the harder one to garner.

Oh yeah, forgot to answer the other poster. Yes, I interviewed. Twice. Yes, I passed the interview first time (buddy in the PD), but didn't make the cut at Selection Board (none of the civies did that round, only the mil guys were taken from our email list we exchanged at the interview amongst our interviewee class). 2nd time I was just having a bad day and did a crap job of interviewing. Still had a great time, great bunch of people, no complaints. It's the only interview I've never gotten the job at, but such is life, no hard feelings. :beer:

That doesn't change the fact of what the Process Agreement says. You guys can attack the messenger (me) since you can't attack the message (what the PA says), but it won't change the facts. There are a lot of things that work in your favor, some that work in ours, and there's *NO REASON* for the threats and innuendo. Hopefully we can get past that, our groups will find a middle ground somewhere in there, and we'll go on down the road making money, kicking butt, and having a good time doing it.

Going to try to take a hiatus from this board for a few days; I can always tell when it's getting to me, I start losing my sense of humor in responding to posts. Sorry if I've been snippy the last two days, the personal attacks and overall job threats to our pilots does that to me. Hope everyone had a good Father's Day.

 

[General Lee]

Precedent should definitely be a player in this acquisition!

Agreed. RECENT precedent should do fine. The last few especially.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Agreed. RECENT precedent should do fine. The last few especially.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Wow, you're still pretending to be an airline pilot? I thought your mom grounded you?

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed. RECENT precedent should do fine. The last few especially.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hey General/OYS- for entertainment purposes-

As another top tier airline, IF delta had bought Air Tran how do you think the list should look in the end? Please be honest.

 

[greenpilot]

Hey General/OYS- for entertainment purposes-

As another top tier airline, IF delta had bought Air Tran how do you think the list should look in the end? Please be honest.

Do you think the arbitrator would take into consideration all the senior delta captains that left delta to start over at airtran?

 

[ivauir]

Thanks, glad the info that it takes ALL parties to sign to rescind the Process Agreement is making its way out. If the other SWA pilots on here would take the time to read and understand each section, we'll go a long way towards all getting on the same page.

To the other SWA pilots, yes there ARE nuclear options... reneging on your agreement

No "reneging" required. The process agreement defines a path to create a list. It does not guarantee its application.

Please don't interpret this as a threat - just explaining the document.:beer:

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Please don't interpret this as a threat - just explaining the document.:beer:

I don't need a minor in Latin to read between the lines.

 

[dicko]

No "reneging" required. The process agreement defines a path to create a list. It does not guarantee its application.

Please don't interpret this as a threat - just explaining the document.:beer:

There's a good reason why USAPA are the pariahs of this industry. Do you really want to follow them down that path ?

The spirit of the agreement and any arbitrated list is clear. Take the good with the bad and move on. Anything else shows a deep lack of integrity.

 

[ASADFW7]

A lot of talk here is swirling around the what ifs, well what if the parties come to an agreement? What then? What about getting our crap together as one group? I could care less what the expectations are, the reality will be decided while negotiating. Maybe our two groups can be working on that? May the subject matter experts work on that for a while, settling on a deal.

 

[Lear70]

No "reneging" required. The process agreement defines a path to create a list. It does not guarantee its application.

Please don't interpret this as a threat - just explaining the document.:beer:

No offense taken, and I guess that's the issue: Your interpretation and our attorneys' interpretation of Sec VI.a. is evidently drastically different and from the last time I spoke to our MC/MEC members, SWAPA hasn't voiced anything of the kind to our MC/MEC either, much less publicly in an announcement or the short interpretation/synopsis of the Process Agreement.

Time will tell, but that's not something I'm worried about (there's plenty of concern without adding something our own attorneys aren't worried about to the pile). :beer:

 

[dicko]

A lot of talk here is swirling around the what ifs, well what if the parties come to an agreement? What then? What about getting our crap together as one group? I could care less what the expectations are, the reality will be decided while negotiating. Maybe our two groups can be working on that? May the subject matter experts work on that for a while, settling on a deal.

I have high hopes for this. I think it's worth it.

 

[ASADFW7]

They moved the cheese last September, I saw the book Who Moved my Cheese? at the used book store and was reminded not to act like a brat. There is always a few who actually need to read that book, just the thought of reading it is enough to make me puke.

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Oh yeah, forgot to answer the other poster. Yes, I interviewed. Twice. Yes, I passed the interview first time (buddy in the PD), but didn't make the cut at Selection Board (none of the civies did that round, only the mil guys were taken from our email list we exchanged at the interview amongst our interviewee class). 2nd time I was just having a bad day and did a crap job of interviewing. Still had a great time, great bunch of people, no complaints. It's the only interview I've never gotten the job at, but such is life, no hard feelings.

Now we find out why you have a bone to pick with SWA

 

[General Lee]

Now we find out why you have a bone to pick with SWA

Bone to pick? He wants a fair deal. You had NOTHING to do with this merger. GK and investment bankers wanted it done. Period. The Airtran guys don't owe you or anyone else a thank you. GK and Company see value in the deal, and they will pay to have it done. Some of you corndogs are so cocky it is ridiculous.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

Bone to pick? He wants a fair deal. You had NOTHING to do with this merger. GK and investment bankers wanted it done. Period. The Airtran guys don't owe you or anyone else a thank you. GK and Company see value in the deal, and they will pay to have it done. Some of you corndogs are so cocky it is ridiculous.

WRONG - they want our contract. Its ours General.... if it was so easy, they'd have a great contract too.... but they don't. If it was so easy, they would be working for a stong company too.. They were for sale, they were bought. It could be worst, AA or Delta could have bought them.

They are lucky, more lucky then you or I ever could be.... they get drafted into the best job in aviation where you and I had to interview.

Corndog Cocky! I like it.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I guess GK moved the WN F/O's cheese

Remember, you bought us, we didn't come into this position voluntarily. As has already been pointed out, the majority of us have never even applied there, let alone interviewed. But don't worry, we'll assimilate just fine, in fact, I'm sure GK will agree that the Trannies will handle this deal much better than WN pilots.

 

[General Lee]

WRONG - they want our contract. Its ours General.... if it was so easy, they'd have a great contract too.... but they don't. If it was so easy, they would be working for a stong company too.. They were for sale, they were bought. It could be worst, AA or Delta could have bought them.

They are lucky, more lucky then you or I ever could be.... they get drafted into the best job in aviation where you and I had to interview.

Corndog Cocky! I like it.

So, you want them to be on a B-scale? You want them to bend over and thank you for something they had no control over? When DL/NWA merged, certain groups got things the other didn't have, and it was shared by all. Some got big pay raises, others got bumped to a base they didn't want to go to, while others finally got to be based closer to where they live. It's called business. Your combination is supposed to make your company stronger, as a whole, which will be better for ALL OF YOU eventually. They don't owe you seniority since you fought for your contract. That's not how it works. Even arbitrator Bloch noted Colgan pilots made a lot less than Pinnacle or Mesaba Pilots (jets), but he still placed them higher on the combined list. You are just going to have to live with it, and know that GK wanted this done. You won't be losing one dime over this from your precious contract, so don't worry about that. No talk of pay cuts from your management so far.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

WRONG - they want our contract. Its ours General.... if it was so easy, they'd have a great contract too.... but they don't. If it was so easy, they would be working for a stong company too.. They were for sale, they were bought. It could be worst, AA or Delta could have bought them.

They are lucky, more lucky then you or I ever could be.... they get drafted into the best job in aviation where you and I had to interview.

Corndog Cocky! I like it.

Careful Cocky Corndog, you might pull something patting your self on the back. I'd wager that if we had your Mgmt, we'd have a great contract too and if we had your Mgmt, we'd be working for a strong company too. This has so little to do with you and so much to do with the Company you work for. I hope that if this goes to arbitration, the panel takes into account the only difference in the work groups is the mgmt styles of our bosses. It won't take much to realize the only difference between a WN pilot and every other pilot (including the regionals and international operators), is their Mgmt. At any other company, SWAPA would be no better than ALPA, IBT, APA, etc.

 

[General Lee]

I guess GK moved the WN F/O's cheese

Remember, you bought us, we didn't come into this position voluntarily. As has already been pointed out, the majority of us have never even applied there, let alone interviewed. But don't worry, we'll assimilate just fine, in fact, I'm sure GK will agree that the Trannies will handle this deal much better than WN pilots.

I agree. The Airtran guys will get a large bump in pay and choices in bases, but that is not because of the SWA pilots. Nope. It's because GK wanted to buy you. Some people think there are winners and losers in everything, and thanks to the high paying contract, I would say you have mostly winners, except some crying corndogs on this board. The SLI stuff is best to be decided by someone seperated from this whole mess, someone on the outside who can see clearly. Who could that be? How about an arbitrator? That would be fair, which is what all Southwest guys want, right? I would hope so, for the culture at least.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Careful Cocky Corndog, you might pull something patting your self on the back. I'd wager that if we had your Mgmt, we'd have a great contract too and if we had your Mgmt, we'd be working for a strong company too. This has so little to do with you and so much to do with the Company you work for. I hope that if this goes to arbitration, the panel takes into account the only difference in the work groups is the mgmt styles of our bosses. It won't take much to realize the only difference between a WN pilot and every other pilot (including the regionals and international operators), is their Mgmt. At any other company, SWAPA would be no better than ALPA, IBT, APA, etc.

Hey, wait a second, ask any Corndog and they will tell you THEY ARE DIFFERENT. They didn't piggyback on any other contract out there (?), they did it all themselves. And remember, it's theirs, and not yours.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hey General/OYS- for entertainment purposes-

As another top tier airline, IF delta had bought Air Tran how do you think the list should look in the end? Please be honest.

Wave,

I'll take a shot at this. If Delta had bought Airtran, I would think any arbitrator would have looked at the differences in the operations. They would look at the sizes of the planes, the difference in routes, and the number of pilots. Longevity would be a factor (years of service), too. If you look at the NIC award for USAir, he put the top 500 on the combined list as all East pilots because they flew INTL routes with A330s and 767s, both larger planes than America West's 757s. Delta is a lot larger than USAir, and there are more plane differences too, with even larger planes doing INTL routes. I would assume, using that recent precedent, that a large chunk of senior Delta pilots would have been put on top of a list, and then it would have maybe gone relative or a ratio from there. That is just a guess based off of the recent NIC award. Maybe Ty Webb (737 Capt) could have been placed somewhere in the Middle of the Delta 737 Captain list, which is probably mid level Captain seniority. He probably wouldn't have been blended in with any 757/767 Capts or above, and the junior 757/767 Captain in the fleet would also probably be placed above that 737 group. Just a guess there. The NIC award, putting the top 500 all from one group that had larger planes that flew INTL routes, really did set the bar.

Now when it comes to SWA and Airtran, your missions are the same, and the planes are very close to the same size. Airtran does fly International flights, (and allnighters), but isn't as large as Southwest. Southwest is more profitable, but Airtran isn't a money loser, and not in BK like Frontier was. That would mean there could be a ratio. But, pay doesn't seem very important to arbitrators (look at Colgan vs Pinnacle and Mesaba), and that might be significant in your case against Airtran. SLI's aren't fun, but they must be fair if you want to fly with these people eventually and not end up like USAir--a divided group. That will hurt you in future negotiations and that famous culture will just go away.

All of the above is speculation, of course.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, they DO have bellies with stars...

 

[MILF Hunter]

I hope that if this goes to arbitration, the panel takes into account the only difference in the work groups is the mgmt styles of our bosses. It won't take much to realize the only difference between a WN pilot and every other pilot (including the regionals and international operators), is their Mgmt. At any other company, SWAPA would be no better than ALPA, IBT, APA, etc.

That's quite an oversimplification! Yes our mgmt's have vastly different styles. But just as different is the business model, and it happens that SWA's has been able to create profits for nearly 40 straight years. No other airline in history has come close to that. All that profit meant more money with each contract. Over the years, the money, great mgmt and job security made SWA a very desirable place to work (albeit not for everyone). That meant MANY more applicants than jobs. That meant higher hiring standards and a very high failure rate in the interview.

I don't say any of this to explain that we are better than trannies. But it's just not accurate to say the only difference is that Gary is a better guy than Bob.

 

[MILF Hunter]

On the other hand, while I do agree that our mgmts' styles are vastly different, I can't help but think that so many of your senior pilots (many who have since retired) made a deal with your last mgmt when they all worked for EAL. They were welcomed to VJ when no other airline would take them. They proved they would fold for mgmt. As a result, mgmt treated them like crap and the contracts were well below the rest of the industry. Because of that, AAI was more than happy to get enough bodies to fill a class for many years. They hired pilots with qualifications well below that of any other major airline. And though the quals of AAI pilots did come up in recent years, they continued to hire pilots with absolutely NO PIC turbine as recently as 2008.

 

[Lear70]

Now we find out why you have a bone to pick with SWA

ROFLMAO!!! A bone to pick? Hardly.

Name ONE post where I've spoken negatively of SOUTHWEST. Just one. (here's a hint, you won't find one, just positive statements of Southwest's history and hope for the same in the future).

What I *DO* post is calm rebuttals when the incorrect postings get too far out in left field. My responses simply discuss the facts behind the merger; they don't get personal, they don't make threats, they don't level intimidation, and they don't call people out, unlike some people on this forum.

Just another case of "when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger". No more. No less.

 

[johnsonrod]

On the other hand, while I do agree that our mgmts' styles are vastly different, I can't help but think that so many of your senior pilots (many who have since retired) made a deal with your last mgmt when they all worked for EAL. They were welcomed to VJ when no other airline would take them. They proved they would fold for mgmt. As a result, mgmt treated them like crap and the contracts were well below the rest of the industry. Because of that, AAI was more than happy to get enough bodies to fill a class for many years. They hired pilots with qualifications well below that of any other major airline. And though the quals of AAI pilots did come up in recent years, they continued to hire pilots with absolutely NO PIC turbine as recently as 2008.

Thank you, Chuck Yeager. Quite an elitest attitude. BTW, I personally know 2 pilots at SWA who were turned down by Delta (failed the psych test). I guess those 2 pilots should hide in the shadows and hang their heads in shame for the rest of their lives because they are terrible pilots and clearly terrible people... Did you read Heavy Set's post earlier about how he met a former Morris Air pilot who integrated into SWA after being negged by SWA twice in the application process? That dude is probably your Captain now and most likely doing a good job.

By the way, the 737-700 is not the space shuttle. Get over yourself...

 

[General Lee]

That's quite an oversimplification! Yes our mgmt's have vastly different styles. But just as different is the business model, and it happens that SWA's has been able to create profits for nearly 40 straight years. No other airline in history has come close to that. All that profit meant more money with each contract. Over the years, the money, great mgmt and job security made SWA a very desirable place to work (albeit not for everyone). That meant MANY more applicants than jobs. That meant higher hiring standards and a very high failure rate in the interview.

I don't say any of this to explain that we are better than trannies. But it's just not accurate to say the only difference is that Gary is a better guy than Bob.

Same goes for Colgan and Pinnacle. Pinnacle had better pay, and Colgan had worse press (especially after the BUF crash and inquiry), lower pay, and zero jets. But, that didn't seem to matter to arbitrator Bloch.


Bye Bye---General Lee