Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[SWA/FO]

I'd wager that if we had your Mgmt, we'd have a great contract too and if we had your Mgmt, we'd be working for a strong company too. This has so little to do with you and so much to do with the Company you work for. I hope that if this goes to arbitration

There is a little bit more to it then excellent management. Culture is a huge factor. Be careful what u wish for!

 

[PCL_128]

And though the quals of AAI pilots did come up in recent years, they continued to hire pilots with absolutely NO PIC turbine as recently as 2008.

Wrong. AirTran has had a requirement for turbine PIC for a long time. In fact, it goes further than simple turbine PIC, and requires that at least 500 of your PIC be in part 121 or military operations. When I was hired, you couldn't get the call until at least 1000-1200 part 121 PIC, even if you had multiple internal recommendations.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

There is a little bit more to it then excellent management. Culture is a huge factor. Be careful what u wish for!

No, Mgmt is pretty much it. They run the airline, which entails marketing, route structure, revenue managment, hiring and firing, and of course promoting the culture. They just hired over 9000 employees in one fell swoop, they're not worried about us destroying the culture.

I'm not wishing for anything (like a "significant gain in seniority" for instance), I'm willing to wait on a negotiated, mediated, or arbitrated settlement and will happily assimilate to the SWA culture if/when there is an ISL that is implemented.

 

[ASADFW7]

PCL your professional insights are endless. Thank you for sharing that Airtran is an exceptional airline to work for, and how it is equal to SWA. I had a few friends who went to Airtran from ASA great people to work with. Your persistence is wearing all the SWA pilots down, please stop harming us with equality, we already have to work within a PC environment. Please allow us the privilege of our soap box.

 

[carl p]

On the other hand, while I do agree that our mgmts' styles are vastly different, I can't help but think that so many of your senior pilots (many who have since retired) made a deal with your last mgmt when they all worked for EAL. They were welcomed to VJ when no other airline would take them. They proved they would fold for mgmt. As a result, mgmt treated them like crap and the contracts were well below the rest of the industry. Because of that, AAI was more than happy to get enough bodies to fill a class for many years. They hired pilots with qualifications well below that of any other major airline. And though the quals of AAI pilots did come up in recent years, they continued to hire pilots with absolutely NO PIC turbine as recently as 2008.

I can tell you that I personally had a friend with several internal recs, over 5K TT 3K of jet time (727, 737) who passed the interview but was not hired because he had slightly less than the turbine PIC min in 2007.

In my class the lowest time guy had 2K turbine PIC and over 5K TT. Many of us were well above double that. I highly doubt anyone was hired in 08 (or the last 8 years) without turbine PIC...

 

[miles otoole]

There is a little bit more to it then excellent management. Culture is a huge factor. Be careful what u wish for!

And it's Herb who created the culture. Herb=management.

 

[400ADude]

Wrong. AirTran has had a requirement for turbine PIC for a long time. In fact, it goes further than simple turbine PIC, and requires that at least 500 of your PIC be in part 121 or military operations. When I was hired, you couldn't get the call until at least 1000-1200 part 121 PIC, even if you had multiple internal recommendations.

Wow. I had no idea it was that competitive.:laugh:

 

[400ADude]

I can tell you that I personally had a friend with several internal recs, over 5K TT 3K of jet time (727, 737) who passed the interview but was not hired because he had slightly less than the turbine PIC min in 2007.

In my class the lowest time guy had 2K turbine PIC and over 5K TT. Many of us were well above double that. I highly doubt anyone was hired in 08 (or the last 8 years) without turbine PIC...

How many DWI's did he have? I've heard for the 2007 hires you needed at least 2 and must have had either one interview bust at SWA for lying on the app after the background check or two busts from the SWA interview without a background check. It is competitive either way.

 

[SWA/FO]

And it's Herb who created the culture. Herb=management.

Herb isn't management.... Herb is one of a kind! You are forgetting about Colleen?

 

[MILF Hunter]

Wrong. AirTran has had a requirement for turbine PIC for a long time. In fact, it goes further than simple turbine PIC, and requires that at least 500 of your PIC be in part 121 or military operations. When I was hired, you couldn't get the call until at least 1000-1200 part 121 PIC, even if you had multiple internal recommendations.

PCL, I really shouldn't even argue qualifications with a guy who paid Gulfstream to warm a seat and accumulate flight time. Yet here I type...

When you were hired, I KNOW there were pilots hired with less than the numbers your put above. Over the years, I'm sure y'all have hired some very qualified pilots. At the same time though, y'all continued to hire pilots with less than AAI's lower published mins.

Look at your list in 11/06. There is a kid who was 22 freakin' years old when hired! Not even old enough for an ATP. I'm sure he was some check airmen's son. Actually, I know he was. As was the guy one number down on that same list. Neither had any turb PIC. That's a fact. At SWA, NOBODY gets in without plenty of turb PIC.

This info could be meaningless in the longrun, but DO NOT pretend AAI hasn't hired pilots with little qualifications from day 1 to very recently.

 

[GuppyWN]

I just had one of those new Chicago style hotdogs from Sonic.

Pretty damn good.

Gup

 

[RLAblows]

I just had one of those new Chicago style hotdogs from Sonic.

Pretty damn good.

Gup

I told you. Damn tasty! Excellent shakes also.

 

[SWA/FO]

paging PLC paging PCL? Ouch.

 

[texman]

And it's Herb who created the culture. Herb=management.

Mr. toole,

I will say that is funny right there! You folks will soon be educated. One question, who wanted SWAPA to be formed?

 

[On Your Six]

PCL your professional insights are endless. Thank you for sharing that Airtran is an exceptional airline to work for, and how it is equal to SWA. I had a few friends who went to Airtran from ASA great people to work with. Your persistence is wearing all the SWA pilots down, please stop harming us with equality, we already have to work within a PC environment. Please allow us the privilege of our soap box.

An arbitrator like Block doesn't seem to care about which airline is better to work for. Colgan might be one of the worst regionals to work for, but he mixed their Captains in with Mesaba and Pinnacle. Doesn't seem to matter to him, and guys like him may decide your future seniority.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

PCL, I really shouldn't even argue qualifications with a guy who paid Gulfstream to warm a seat and accumulate flight time. Yet here I type...

When you were hired, I KNOW there were pilots hired with less than the numbers your put above. Over the years, I'm sure y'all have hired some very qualified pilots. At the same time though, y'all continued to hire pilots with less than AAI's lower published mins.

Look at your list in 11/06. There is a kid who was 22 freakin' years old when hired! Not even old enough for an ATP. I'm sure he was some check airmen's son. Actually, I know he was. As was the guy one number down on that same list. Neither had any turb PIC. That's a fact. At SWA, NOBODY gets in without plenty of turb pic.

This info could be meaningless in the longrun, but DO NOT pretend AAI hasn't hired pilots with little qualifications from day 1 to very recently.

What's interesting is that 22 year old pilot at Airtran might upgrade before you and SWA/FO, and could be senior to you guys for more than 40 more years. And he didn't have to pay for his type rating! Ouch.



OYS

 

[dicko]

There is a kid who was 22 freakin' years old when hired! Not even old enough for an ATP. I'm sure he was some check airmen's son. Actually, I know he was. As was the guy one number down on that same list. Neither had any turb PIC. That's a fact. At SWA, NOBODY gets in without plenty of turb PIC.

You have just deeply embarrassed yourself, along with any SWA pilot that you are associated with.

One of their fathers is currently training your management and check airmen. Both of them are well respected, as are their sons. If you want to get as personal as attacking peoples sons; perhaps you should get the details right first.

Has SWA ever hired a pilot who didn't meet the published mins ?

 

[Dolce]

OYS,

Again, pissed you made a bad decision and your career is nothing like the one you thought you'd have by this point. By the way, how's that 50k a year in pay working out for you? By the time you retire, you may be a Captain on the RJ your company is buying! I bet I'm a little more accurate in my predictions than your are...clown act!

D

 

[Dolce]

Dicko,

Are they the Eastern scabs which work in your training center?

D

 

[waveflyer]

I'm confused General- that looks hypocritical-

WHY are widebodies and larger a/c given seniority preferences?? Because of the experience of it? So a pilot who gets to eat sundaes over the Atlantic gets to be senior? Why does that entitle you to seniority? The high paying 3-day trips? Or is it the historical pay?

Well from APC- your widebody rates are $217 and $208/Flt hour. 757 rate are $182 - what would you say most of your pilots turn that into/year.

Well I don't know 1lazy capt who didn't make at least $220k with our tfp formulas. And APC converts us to $210k roughly.

And btw-Those who say $$ doesn't matter have either never been broke and hungry or forgot. It is a terrible person who says money doesn't matter.

Sorry Gen- but I think you are forgetting that almost every swa pilot agrees that a staple is not right. Some have wet dreams about it but aren't going to go crazy- - you make your arguments and we're not far apart at all- I looked at the award from pinnacolaba- and I come up with the same list using their categories of A/C-
#1 AT guy will go around date of hire- then a formula that ratio'd everyone down leaving anywhere from 200-600 FOs at the bottom of the snapshot- no bump, no flush. What's unfair about that?

Wave,

I'll take a shot at this. If Delta had bought Airtran, I would think any arbitrator would have looked at the differences in the operations. They would look at the sizes of the planes, the difference in routes, and the number of pilots. Longevity would be a factor (years of service), too. If you look at the NIC award for USAir, he put the top 500 on the combined list as all East pilots because they flew INTL routes with A330s and 767s, both larger planes than America West's 757s. Delta is a lot larger than USAir, and there are more plane differences too, with even larger planes doing INTL routes. I would assume, using that recent precedent, that a large chunk of senior Delta pilots would have been put on top of a list, and then it would have maybe gone relative or a ratio from there. That is just a guess based off of the recent NIC award. Maybe Ty Webb (737 Capt) could have been placed somewhere in the Middle of the Delta 737 Captain list, which is probably mid level Captain seniority. He probably wouldn't have been blended in with any 757/767 Capts or above, and the junior 757/767 Captain in the fleet would also probably be placed above that 737 group. Just a guess there. The NIC award, putting the top 500 all from one group that had larger planes that flew INTL routes, really did set the bar.

Now when it comes to SWA and Airtran, your missions are the same, and the planes are very close to the same size. Airtran does fly International flights, (and allnighters), but isn't as large as Southwest. Southwest is more profitable, but Airtran isn't a money loser, and not in BK like Frontier was. That would mean there could be a ratio. But, pay doesn't seem very important to arbitrators (look at Colgan vs Pinnacle and Mesaba), and that might be significant in your case against Airtran. SLI's aren't fun, but they must be fair if you want to fly with these people eventually and not end up like USAir--a divided group. That will hurt you in future negotiations and that famous culture will just go away.

All of the above is speculation, of course.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dicko]

Dicko,

Are they the Eastern scabs which work in your training center?

D

The fathers he's attacking are both guys that never crossed the line at Eastern. It will be interesting if MILF runs across them at some point

In answer to your question, I don't know. These people seem to live forever.

 

[waveflyer]

PCL-
I really do think you do the average air tran pilot a disservice by voicing so often. You are the pilot who took a shortcut to their career. When everyone else worked and paid for their certificates, built time, built relationships, earned respect of their fellow instructors and peers, so that they would have ample LORs and a good professional reputation in which to garner an airline career- YOU paid gulfstream to be an FO. Everyone else instructed, built the foundation by scrapping- not by mom and dad's wallet.

And when I get into it- it's the same here.

This is an acquisition and not nearly as despicable a shortcut as you took to a career- but there are parallels. AT guys will be skipping steps that guys took to gain the job as SWA became a top tier ultra competitive gig- or skipping the sacrifice of slugging it out at 2nd tier rates until your company was strong enough to pay and schedule better.

Are you T.O. Really trying to say that the AT job was NOT much easier to gain than the swa gig??

We all make our choices and every AT pilot ought to be proud of getting on and competing so well- but these are not and have never been equal jobs- Swa simply required on average YEARS more experience and quals- and the stick-to-it-iveness to update and interview often 2 or 3 times. Everything about it is better and as such many more pilots apply.

Are we really saying in all this we're all communist equals? That there should be no benefit to those who did stay with it and got the harder job to get?

You won't be stapled but manage your expectations- there ought to be a gain for every swa pilot. A fair one, but a gain.

Wrong. AirTran has had a requirement for turbine PIC for a long time. In fact, it goes further than simple turbine PIC, and requires that at least 500 of your PIC be in part 121 or military operations. When I was hired, you couldn't get the call until at least 1000-1200 part 121 PIC, even if you had multiple internal recommendations.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS,

Again, pissed you made a bad decision and your career is nothing like the one you thought you'd have by this point. By the way, how's that 50k a year in pay working out for you? By the time you retire, you may be a Captain on the RJ your company is buying! I bet I'm a little more accurate in my predictions than your are...clown act!

D

I am actually very happy where I am now, and thankful. I am also thankful I don't have to go through that god awful SLI that you guys will have to do. I missed it here, which is fine with me. I'll just watch yours and bring the popcorn, which I can afford with my 50k or so pay. Luckily I saved some money from my corporate gig, giving me breathing room, and I get a healthy pay bump up in a few months from now. And wasn't there a thread on here stating the airline would retire 7600 pilots within 15 years from now? Not you guys, with 150 a year scheduled for multiple years, and 22 year old FOs senior to you. I actually, feel, pretty darn good. Good luck and Godspeed.


OYS

 

[humveedriver]

PCL-
IWe all make our choices and every AT pilot ought to be proud of getting on and competing so well.

Thanks!

I hear ya Wave. Sometimes life isn't fair. This industry is really weird. We all talk about paying our dues and unity. But yet there are plenty of PFT'ers and line crossers out there flying. So I don't worry about it too much. Because I know what did to get where I am today and I have nothing to be ashamed about. See you on the other side!

 

[redflyer65]

Has SWA ever hired a pilot who didn't meet the published mins ?

I'd say the odds are no for the last 20yrs. This has been one of the hardest jobs to obtain in ANY industry, they just don't cut corners on qualifications..they don't have to.

Used to be, some well placed internal recs could really help you get an interview..but you still needed the mins. Now they have even taken out the internal rec part until you get the interview.

The days of calling the PD or a chief pilot to get your bud the interview are long gone.

I'd say the success rate after you get the interview are less than 20 percent.

 

[redflyer65]

But, pay doesn't seem very important to arbitrators (look at Colgan vs Pinnacle and Mesaba), and that might be significant in your case against Airtran.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I can let most of your post stand, but on this part you are completely clueless.

Mesaba got credit in the SLI for having the better contract. Their NC did an excellent job of arguing to Block that it mattered...and he argreed with them.

From Block...

'to at once recognize the beneficial aspects reflected by adoption of many highly salutary aspects of a seasoned Mesaba labor agreement that was brought to the merger'

So your continued sabre rattling about how the Southwest contract doesn't matter is completely false. And I think the AAI MC is really starting to grasp this as well via their last email.

RF

 

[SWA/FO]

What's interesting is that 22 year old pilot at Airtran might upgrade before you and SWA/FO, and could be senior to you guys for more than 40 more years. And he didn't have to pay for his type rating! Ouch.

Dumbass, my handle on FI.com was made over 13 years ago. Much like if your handle was for example "dumbass UAL FO" - but really now you're a "dumbass DAL FO and you just didn't change it.

Besides, SWA/ CA is taken.

I'm not worried about the trannies. I just wish they were more grateful, much like you and your LOVE for Delta and the boyz in ATL.

:cartman:

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I'm not worried about the trannies. I just wish they were more grateful, .....

:cartman:

I thought the warrior spirit was part of the culture?

We're not exactly seeing a servant's heart out of you guys either.

We are very grateful for the vision of Herb, the continued manifestation of a successful airline by Gary, Colleen, et. al. and the opportunities provided by this merger.

 

[greenpilot]

I'd say the odds are no for the last 20yrs. This has been one of the hardest jobs to obtain in ANY industry, they just don't cut corners on qualifications..they don't have to.

Used to be, some well placed internal recs could really help you get an interview..but you still needed the mins. Now they have even taken out the internal rec part until you get the interview.

The days of calling the PD or a chief pilot to get your bud the interview are long gone.

I'd say the success rate after you get the interview are less than 20 percent.

I think you forgot about women in aviation and the scholarship program. Girls got class dates ahead of poolies and a few of the were hired and given a free type from SWA. It has never been about how good you are. It's about how lucky you are and who you know.

 

[redflyer65]

Were any of those canidates not qualified?