Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[XRMEFLYER]

Exactly. Do you really think the process agreement would be written that way literally?

You guys are amazingly naive, not to mention completely uneducated as to the symbiosis that exists between SWA mgmt and the pilot group. GK will extend cordiality to you all if you play nice, but don't think for a second he won't give you alternate employment options if you get uppity, as we are hearing you are. Why would he treat a self-entitled AAI pilot any differently than he would an self-entitled interviewee?

"...if u get uppity"

What exactly do you mean by that sir? Please expand upon what it is that would constitute us getting "uppity" so that we can be sure and avoid it.

 

[greenpilot]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

 

[Tripower455]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

Well, in order to avoid an "East/West" situation, he'll obviously offer "alternative employment options" to the SWA guys!

 

[MILF Hunter]

From Lear70-

You're not reading it in its ENTIRETY. Here it is in its ENTIRETY so you can understand the full context in how the Process Agreement can be canceled (it can't now unless ALL FOUR PARTIES agree to cancel it):

Quote:
VII (b) Any party may terminate this agreement by fifteen (15) days written advance notice delivered to all parties at any time FOLLOWING THE TERMINATION OF THE MERGER AGREEMENT.



Lear, hopefully you aren't interpretting this Section VII as requiring all four parties to agree to terminate! Please tell me you understand the difference between 4-party consent and one party submitting written notification to the other 3 parties. Hopefully y'all are getting more expertise than this from CryBaby Katz!

Now, I'm not an attorney. But when I read a statement that says "Any party may terminate...by written advanced notice delivered to all parties...", I'm pretty sure it means whay it says.

 

[Daddy]

You guys keep saying that if this goes to arbitration that aii pilots will not be merged and AirTran will go the way of transtar. What happens if the mc comes up with a negotiated list and the AirTran pilots vote it in, but the swa pilots vote no.
Now it goes to arbitration and swa pilots don't like the SLI. What do you think GK will do then?

I think a negotiated deal is about the only way the airtran guys get integrated. Gary might be the most conservative CEO in the fortune 500 and he has a LOT riding on this. He will do absolutely anything to avoid a poisonous USAir type situation as airtran will not be the only SWA acquisition in the cards. If the SLI goes to arbitration and goes bad and an employee revolt appears likely at SWA, he will do ANYTHING to avoid that scenario. Operating airtran separately and drawing it down is the only real option at that point. This would be the nuclear scenario and I do not expect it to happen, but it CAN happen if there is not a deal made. It sounds like the airtran NC is seeing this, judging from their latest correspondence...I am cautiously optimistic at this point.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Not a good idea to have very unhappy employees all in one area. Especially in a service industry that strives for on time performance and gas prices are important. Not good to divide and conquer. Sounds like you might be the next USair.

OYS

Not to worry OYS, as I'm sure you understand as well as any of us that when we're a new probabtion pilot, we keep our heads down and do our job as good as we can.

And before PCL comes on to say RLA prohibits this, allow me to disagree. I know of nothing that says issues like longevity and probabtion are automatically transferred.

 

[redflyer65]

The merger agreement was completed without termination, so it would revert back to four party cancellation...or a three party cancellation at this point. I did some digging into the SW SEC reports. A difficult but interesting read about how the two seperate LLC's were placed between AAI and SW.

From the attitudes that I'm hearing, it seems like it might play out like this.. The AAI NC will realize that a bird in the hand is worth possibly nothing and attempt to get a favorable vote from the membership. The big question will be how many 'I'll keep my seat' or 'I need my upgrade' pilots will sink the vote...versus those that will be truely happy to accept some concessions but to be on the final list quickly.

I envision the Airtran pilot vote being the most pivotal point. Take it to arbitration and gamble that the outcome (ISL) may never be fully implemented.

 

[redflyer65]

. Operating airtran separately and drawing it down is the only real option at that point. This would be the nuclear scenario and I do not expect it to happen, but it CAN happen if there is not a deal made. It sounds like the airtran NC is seeing this.

I agree 100%. It really would be a nuclear option, and I think most of us would agree to that. And I'm sure not the road that Gary really wants to go down, but it's setup this way for a reason. He is a very conservative CEO who will protect 40yrs of history if push comes to shove. I wouldn't want to be in the line of fire.

 

[texman]

What? You might hope this is the case, but there is a lot of money riding on this. GK wants this, along with Wall St. He probably doesn't want another USAir situation. But honestly, these recent arbitration awards are very telling on what might happen next time. Godspeed to you.



OYS

Thanks for the response to my post earlier. Monwy, yes a lot. But the shareholders voted to furlough in 08. Swa spent 70 mil not to. So money can be spent to save the culture of this airline.

 

[Cometman]

I am an outsider but have been reading posts from both sides. If you believe Lear70 as mister know it all then here is what I take from it:

1. If Airtran accepts what SWA offers and there is a settled SLI then Airtran and ALPA will sit down with SWA and SWAPA and work out the items for the transition. It sounds like there are a lot of benefits to be able to be involved with those items.

2. If it goes to arbitration and it is not good for SWA then SWA and SWAPA will decide on those items for the transition. Unless SWA decides it would not be worth it and keeps them separate.

I guess it is a gamble for Airtran. Good luck. As far as SWAPA it doesn't look like they have a choice. Why settle for less during the negotiation, let it go to arbitration where at least you can decide what happens to the items for the transition. And besides, you have the chance that SWA will not combine the operation.

On the other hand if SWAP accepts something less than what they want or something they would be happy with during SLI negotiations they will also give Airtran and ALPA a voice in the transition items. That would be a double slap in the face.

I would recommend that SWAPA either settle for what they want or let it go to arbitration. Don't give Airtran both a good settlement and a say in the transition items.

 

[dicko]

The merger agreement was completed without termination, so it would revert back to four party cancellation...or a three party cancellation at this point.


I'm glad you finally decided to actually read it instead of continuing to spout an opinion based on a Ouija board. You might want to gather your buddies into a reading group. Right MILF ?

I did some digging into the SW SEC reports. A difficult but interesting read about how the two seperate LLC's were placed between AAI and SW.

"A difficult read" ? You only just read it ? Tell us what it says will happen with AirTran and Southwest in terms of integration ?

I envision the Airtran pilot vote being the most pivotal point. Take it to arbitration and gamble that the outcome (ISL) may never be fully implemented.

Our MC reminded us of two things;

1. There are unions with no integrity out there who have had, or may not have the moral fortitude to honor an Arbiters list or an agreement.

2. You never know what an Arbiter will do.

I thank them for that. It goes both ways.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Knowing that a straight staple would pass a vote of AirTran pilots, why would SWA offer anything more than that? Sure, some senior tranny captains will be mad, but everyone else will be thrilled.

Throw in a no furlough clause and some fences for bases and it will be a slam dunk.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Dicko, don't try to direct your frustration at me! I have read the Merger Agreement. It is a plan, and it is subject to change at any time. As long as the shareholders value is protected, they won't say anything. They could care less how Gary gets it done. In fact, if SWA were to announce that in the interest of protecting investments, they would keep AAI seperate, I'm sure you still wouldn't hear a peep from the shareholders. That means the only ones that would complain about seperate ops is you, the AAI pilots. Are you going to sue SWA? Are you going to seek an injunction against SWA? Good luck with that one. First, y'all can't afford it. Second, good luck finding a court willing to dictate to a multi-billion dollar company how to run its operation.

I assume your shot at me was in response to my post about PCL's statements on the Process Agreement. That is the 4-party document in question. And now its really a 3-party document since AAI mgmt ceased to be. And in that document, ANY party can back out with simple written notification to the other parties. Period.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Dicko, you are proud that someone took the time to read the Merger Agreement. Great. Did u read your Merger COmmittee's update? Not skim, but really read it? I did, and it reads less like an update and more like a warning.

Remember, through all your union's in-fighting, recalls and resignations, your one constant is your MC. They're the one thing y'all cling to at night when you get scared. Now they are trying to tell you something. Don't be so foolish as to not hear what they are saying!

 

[Ty Webb]

Dicko, Lear, PCL et al:

On behalf of myself and anyone else following this stuff, thanks for trying to bring the facts back into the discussion, but I'm not surprised that most folks don't seem to understand what they're reading.

The more facts that are introduced, the more it becomes clear that most of the people on here haven't bothered to do any basic research . . . They don't know a Merger Agreement from a Process Agreement. They don't understand our staffing requirements for redeyes, CDO's and Flag Operations. They haven't read past arbitrations, M-B, Allegheny Mohawk or much of anything else. . . . . They are basically like the Taliban . . . . "informed" only by by their mullahs, and convinced that we are simply subhuman "infidels" who stand between them and upgrade and their 72 virgins. If you show them facts they don't like, they respond with personal attacks and threats. Any attempt to be balanced and conciliatory is met as weakness . . . So, why bother?

In the end, we will be integrated according to the process agreement we have all signed. Some will choose to be miserable, most will accept it and move on. A few will let it poison the next decade or more of their lives, and will choke on their own bile and bitterness, instead of enjoying what should be a great career. It's pretty clear to see who those folks will be.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Dicko, Lear, PCL et al:

On behalf of myself and anyone else following this stuff, thanks for trying to bring the facts back into the discussion, but I'm not surprised that most folks don't seem to understand what they're reading.

The more facts that are introduced, the more it becomes clear that most of the people on here haven't bothered to do any basic research . . . They don't know a Merger Agreement from a Process Agreement.

Ty, it would seem that you are the one who doesn't fully comprehend all the nuances of the process agreement. It is possible to abide by the process agreement and still end up with an unintegrated pilot group. I'm not saying any more than that...you may be able to figure it out for yourself. I'm sure that will be made apparent in the negotiations, if it hasn't been already.

 

[redflyer65]

Our MC reminded us of two things;

1. There are unions with no integrity out there who have had, or may not have the moral fortitude to honor an Arbiters list or an agreement.

2. You never know what an Arbiter will do.

I thank them for that. It goes both ways.

Dicko,

Nice arrogant post buddy. Yea, I put more than a little time in reading plenty of 8-k and 425 postings...so what. Have you?

I admitted that I went back a re-read the Merger agreement and you decide to chastise me for it? I try to admit when I'm wrong and move on..


As far as the SLI goes, I like the SWAPA chances either way..with or without arbitration. SWAPA has put several million dollars into this and will authorize whatever more it takes(we've been saving for this very event..for years) On the otherside, we have AAI ALPA falling apart and appearantly still owing ALPA national several million.

And for shareholders, we carry a ton of stock with more than 35,000 employees that own hundreds (if not thousands) of shares of Southwest stock each. So as a collective, massive group of shareholders...we have Gary's back just as he has ours. I'm pretty sure Gary keeps the other large investor groups briefed on any labor strife that might lie ahead.

Ty,

Calling people the Taliban now? Really? Nice. The only person I've seen get personal on here with you is Bob.

RF

 

[Flycatcher99]

"...if u get uppity"

What exactly do you mean by that sir? Please expand upon what it is that would constitute us getting "uppity" so that we can be sure and avoid it.

I mean exactly what has been posted by some here, namely self-entitlement and far greater expectations in SLI than what is reasonable, followed by cocksure statements and denigrations of SWA pilots and culture. I also mean grandiose demands made both to SWA's m&a committe and SWA management itself, both of which have and are happening already.

 

[Ty Webb]

Calling people the Taliban now? Really? Nice. The only person I've seen get personal on here with you is Bob.

RF

Then you haven't been paying attention. Your buddies post my name here every few days, and have a forum post 4 pages long that apparently has my picture on it. Cowardly, to be sure.... People who stoop to those tactics are the ones I equate to the Taliban. Certainly not all, but a vocal minority.

 

[redflyer65]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Your buddies post my name here every few days, and have a forum post 4 pages long that apparently has my picture on it. Cowardly, to be sure.

I do take periods of time off from FI, so I must have missed that. I try not to go personal, but just debate the issues and facts that are in front us. Sorry to hear that..