Union getting serious at CitationAir

[RCR5]

I'll challenge you on this. I have access to surveys that you don't.

Surveys to the union from employees? Or surveys on how many posted on FI here saying how they really feel?

 

[imacdog]

Let's not confuse what pilots are saying about the direction of the company versus satisfaction with the union. Right now there is a big difference.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Waco, you might think you don't really need it in writing at Avantair and neither did I until our last CEO, Sh*tfinger, landed on the property (seemingly out of no ware) after a nefarious career at USAir express. Boy was I wrong. Don't make the same mistake we did.

+1.

MS was singlehandedly responsible for me going from one of the most vehement anti-union pilots you would find to a full on supporter, 3 years before a contract.

This guy was very close to firing (I can't call it furlough, because at the time we would have had no recall rights) pilots, regardless of seniority, as they rationalized the fleets. For example, the Challenger 601's we operated were crewed by senior pilots (as you would expect). MS was prepared to fire those pilots as the 601's left our fleet (replaced by the Legacy), his thought process being "Why keep our most expensive pilots if we're not compelled to do so?". Had he done that, the pilot group would have unified immediately, and we would have had a contract several years sooner. But it would have been too late for the senior pilots who were fired.

If seniority isn't important to you, then I guess my example means nothing.

MS has now taken his show to BBA / Signature. Ask any of their employees (from CSR's on down) what this guy is doing to them. I understand he's got a job to do, and he is hired as a "cutter". But MS wouldn't know customer service nor how to manage a customer service group (i.e., fractional pilots) if his life depended on it. Now he's got a legion of pissed off employees. It is hard to imagine how service at Signature could get any worse, but it certainly has under MS's reign.

Now, ask yourselves this question: What happens when the controlling shareholders (the REAL bosses, whom your managers work for) at CitationAir (or Flex, or Avantair) decide they need a S. Michael Sheeringa to come aboard and cut costs? Are you prepared to "negotiate" on your own, individually, for your jobs?

 

[CA1900]

Since most are forecasting that they will be out for close to 5 years; do the math. I suspect we will be hiring inside a year. Your union company will be hiring again, when?

No idea, but that's not determined by a union. What is determined is things like guaranteed recall rights (which "expire" or don't exist at all at our non-union competitors), furlough pay, and the pay and benefits package.

300 more out the door......great union work.

If that does happen, it has nothing to do with the union. Quite the opposite, in fact: were it not for the scope provisions in our contract, those 300 would already be out the door under our current management team, which is hell-bent on outsourcing our work.

I just hope you folks don't have to deal with a major change of management like we just had. If Textron comes in and says, "Knock 40% off the pilot costs," how exactly are you planning on keeping what you have?

 

[Willy21]

Since most are forecasting that they will be out for close to 5 years; do the math. I suspect we will be hiring inside a year. Your union company will be hiring again, when?

300 more out the door......great union work. Regardless, I am sure those 500+ pilots are still loving the union.

You seem to be confusing what management has control over and what a union has control over. The reason CitationAir is recalling and as you say will be hiring within the year is because they are taking delivery of new/growth airplanes. NetJets is not.

NetJets Management believed it would be best to cancel all orders during the downturn. Now that things are looking up they have ordered new airplanes, the first of which won't be here until the 4th quarter of 2012. Management has said that the deliveries will be replacement aircraft instead of growth airplanes. Therefore the only reason to recall pilots is to cover attrition. Until NetJets management decides to grow the company or pilots retire and/or move on we will have pilots on furlough.

With all of that being said I ask what makes you believe the union has any control over growth, hiring or recalls?

 

[wacoflyr]

+1.


Now, ask yourselves this question: What happens when the controlling shareholders (the REAL bosses, whom your managers work for) at CitationAir (or Flex, or Avantair) decide they need a S. Michael Sheeringa to come aboard and cut costs? Are you prepared to "negotiate" on your own, individually, for your jobs?

That, as they say, would be different. To repeat, if I were at FLOPS I probably would have voted yes. If that guy were ever to come here, then the circumstances would have changed. I'm not saying a union is never right. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, it is not right here, right now.

 

[ProFracPilot]

I'm just saying that, in my opinion, it is not right here, right now.

In my experience, by the time you get to "right here, right now" it will be too late to do anything about it.

Hoping for the best for all you guys and gals, regardless.

 

[G4dude]

You seem to be confusing what management has control over and what a union has control over. The reason CitationAir is recalling and as you say will be hiring within the year is because they are taking delivery of new/growth airplanes. NetJets is not.

NetJets Management believed it would be best to cancel all orders during the downturn. Now that things are looking up they have ordered new airplanes, the first of which won't be here until the 4th quarter of 2012. Management has said that the deliveries will be replacement aircraft instead of growth airplanes. Therefore the only reason to recall pilots is to cover attrition. Until NetJets management decides to grow the company or pilots retire and/or move on we will have pilots on furlough.

With all of that being said I ask what makes you believe the union has any control over growth, hiring or recalls?

The union doesn't control growth, but it does affect growth by increasing the unit labor cost (the cost of each pilot), affecting profitability, thereby limiting growth. Limiting growth reduces the need for union pilots. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

 

[imacdog]

Are you offering to work for less than you are making now, G4? Think that'll make a difference in the success of the company?

 

[FRACTRASH]

All the folks here at CA who want a Union need to step back take a deep breath and evaluate the mess our industry and country are in. I've said this before, if we were in a booming economy and the company started making cuts, I'd be more on board. I've been with Citationair for some time now and not once did I ever feel my career was at risk because management woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day. I've always been treated with respect and not once felt like I couldn't approach them with an operational issue. As for sitting too much standby early in the morning or owner services not communicating with the customers and leaving it up to the crew to brake the bad news. These problems will not be solved by Teamsters and I'm not willing to pay dues for these petty issues. As for aviation careers, I feel Citationair is still one of the better places to work. If you want a Union and $200,000 a year go work for FedEx or SouthWest. If your so unhappy here, everyone is free to advance their careers with a company that better meets your needs.

CITATIONAIR UNION FREE

 

[Jack Campbell]

The union doesn't control growth, but it does affect growth by increasing the unit labor cost (the cost of each pilot), affecting profitability, thereby limiting growth. Limiting growth reduces the need for union pilots. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

Don't forget how greed reduces the need for union pilots. Greed of company managers, who ultimately control hiring. Reducing the amount of pilots increases the income of the top managers. Greed of pilots who pick up time and work extra days. Bidding premium schedules and working extra days increases a pilot's income, and reduces the need for more union pilots.

 

[realityman]

The union doesn't control growth, but it does affect growth by increasing the unit labor cost (the cost of each pilot), affecting profitability, thereby limiting growth. Limiting growth reduces the need for union pilots. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

In relation to NJA ONLY, this statement is completely false. After we signed out CBA in '05 NJA experienced record profits. Hmmmmmm.........How does that jive with what you're saying? Growth rocketed forward and hiring went gangbusters.

So what happened? Ummm, at a glance, I'd say it was the economy. Our salary and benefits didn't cause furloughs. We simply had negative sales. Fewer airframes meant a need for fewer pilots. It wouldn't have mattered if we were on our old crappy pay scale or not. If we were being paid only $10 a year, we still wouldn't have had a need for all those excess pilots. Maybe at a reduced salary the company could have afforded to keep more pilots, but why would they keep pilots they didn't need on the payroll no matter what they made? RTS looked at us a little more like family, and made the effort, but most management teams (including our current one) view this simply as a business, and made the usual (albeit painful for the furloughed pilots) move. Salary and benefits had nothing to do with it. It was simply the fact of fewer active airframes on property.

Profits don't dictate how many pilots we have, or don't have. We could be losing money, but if we're operating airplanes, we need pilots to fly them. Salary doesn't matter. And conversely, if we're making huge profits, but doing it with fewer planes, we simply won't need all the pilots we have. Some will be let go.

I don't know of a union is really needed here or not. And I sure don't claim a union is the solution to all of a pilot's problems. But based on how things were before the union (got tough), and how things are now, I much prefer the union! A union can't stop furloughs, but it can greatly improve salary and benefits and QOL for those working, and at least provide some rules if furloughs become necessary (and downgrades too!).

I feel more secure, less pressured, and have a much better standard of living thanks to our union.

Sorry about the NJA talk. This isn't an NJA thread. I know that. Just responding to G4's post with my current experience. If a union isn't right for the pilots at CA, then it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that. Good luck with whatever happens folks!

 

[Willy21]

The union doesn't control growth, but it does affect growth by increasing the unit labor cost (the cost of each pilot), affecting profitability, thereby limiting growth. Limiting growth reduces the need for union pilots. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

This is where the average line pilot needs to step up and not let the union run off and strangle the golden goose. We all want to be paid more, have better QOL.... But at what cost? If you look at the United and Delta contracts from 2000 they did very well in terms of compensation but for only a few years.

The way I view the union is different from the hard core Thug tactics of the past. I am willing to meet management in the middle, but I will not let them take advantage of me. Likewise I want my union to push the bar, but not to the point that we limit growth and destroy the company.

It is my belief that when you vote a union in you need to keep it on a leash. Sometimes the leash is long and sometimes it is short. It requires the average line pilot to be engaged with their elected union officers. If you are not willing to do this don't vote in a union or it will be another layer of management that wont respond to the needs of the company and pilots. Without strong accountability from the line pilots you will have an ALPA type union. With accountability and a management group that will work with the pilots/union you will have NJA 2005 - 2008. During that period NJA was growing and showing record profits. I do find that ironic.

 

[rigger]

This is where the average line pilot needs to step up and not let the union run off and strangle the golden goose. We all want to be paid more, have better QOL.... But at what cost? If you look at the United and Delta contracts from 2000 they did very well in terms of compensation but for only a few years.

The way I view the union is different from the hard core Thug tactics of the past. I am willing to meet management in the middle, but I will not let them take advantage of me. Likewise I want my union to push the bar, but not to the point that we limit growth and destroy the company.

It is my belief that when you vote a union in you need to keep it on a leash. Sometimes the leash is long and sometimes it is short. It requires the average line pilot to be engaged with their elected union officers. If you are not willing to do this don't vote in a union or it will be another layer of management that wont respond to the needs of the company and pilots. Without strong accountability from the line pilots you will have an ALPA type union. With accountability and a management group that will work with the pilots/union you will have NJA 2005 - 2008. During that period NJA was growing and showing record profits. I do find that ironic.

Huh sounds like you traded the problems of the company management corporate culture to the problems of the union management corporate culture....All the items listed as items pilots must do with the Union should be done by the pilots and the company, same issues faced with 2.6 percent pay raise ( no union dues)

As for wonderful union negotiating ask the union about the great way they handled peoples careers at say:
1 Twa
2 Eastern
3 United bankruptcy
4 Us Scare east and west
5 Trans States
6 etc etc

 

[realityman]

Huh sounds like you traded the problems of the company management corporate culture to the problems of the union management corporate culture....All the items listed as items pilots must do with the Union should be done by the pilots and the company, same issues faced with 2.6 percent pay raise ( no union dues)

As for wonderful union negotiating ask the union about the great way they handled peoples careers at say:
1 Twa
2 Eastern
3 United bankruptcy
4 Us Scare east and west
5 Trans States
6 etc etc

Rigger, you are right, up to a point. Now might be a good time to remind you that the union IS the pilots. Some unions are better than others. Some were good, and went bad. Look at ALPA. You should read Flying The Line. It's a fantastic read, and gives a great perspective on where we, as an industry, were prior to ALPA, and where we're at now. Gives a great perspective on what things would really be like if pilots had no union and "worked things out" directly between the pilots and management. It also makes it all the sadder to see what has happened to ALPA over the years. But ALPA was necessary, and most of the pilots who enjoy a great job today still have ALPA to thank for it.

Now, will a union be right for the pilots of CA? I don't know. I don't work there. But if a union is needed, it'll be voted in. If it's not needed, they won't get one. It's not a perfect solution, but what is?

As for examples, ask yourself where the pilots would be without their respective unions of the following carriers:

FedEx
UPS
American
Delta
Southwest
Netjets (after 15 years here, I can personally tell you about this one)
Continental
Etc, etc, etc.......

Union at CA. No union at CA. Whatever. Unions aren't all good, and aren't always necessary. But they aren't all bad either and have done a whole lot of good for a whole lot of people. Good luck CA pilots!