Union getting serious at CitationAir

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Actually, I don't hate unions. From the outside, it looked like Flops needed one. I would probably have voted for it, if I worked there. But I don't work there, I work here, at Avantair. In my opinion, we don't need one.

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

 

[wacoflyr]

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

If the majority of our pilots think we need one, we will get one. It's just that simple.

 

[Praetorian]

Waco, you are being manipulated

This is from Martin Levitt’s Confessions of a union buster. Here he describes one of the methods employed by Nathan Shefferman, who in the 1950's, developed many of the methods still employed by union-busting law firms, like the one your company uses today.

“Here is an example from the Shefferman school of subterfuge: Shefferman advised management to institute a device called an employee roundtable. Purportedly designed to give workers a way to air their grievances and influence company policy, in reality the roundtable becomes managements tap into the worker grapevine and its repressive thumb on the informal worker power structure. The regular group meetings provided management with a system for planting information, as well as for identifying and controlling the leaders among employees. But the fact is such committees serve managements interests more directly than the needs of the workers.”


Sounds a bit like your PAC doesn't it?

 

[dime line]

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

Wow, kinda easy being able to say that, knowing you have (like or not) union protection.

 

[RCR5]

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

That has nothing to do with my company and how they do business. I know what goes on here at CA and do not know, nor do I care, what goes on at FLOPS.

My company is a GREAT company to work for and it shows. I have no comment on how things are going now, or in the past for FLOPS.

This is also a CA thread.

 

[wacoflyr]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

 

[Praetorian]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

 

[RCA]

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

 

[Praetorian]

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

Please spare us your blinding idiocy, specious arguments and non sequitur comments.

 

[G4dude]

Then you should go find another job where your self-actualization will be fully appreciated. Until then, you are part of a union - like it or not.

Like I've said before, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd make the same statements and stand behind them with your real name over on our board. I would honestly think higher of you if you did that - even if I disagree with your statements. As it stands, you cower behind some screen name and toss out tripe without any real commitment.

I've always posted here where people know who I am and I stand behind my posts. How about you grow a pair and do the same G4?

A fair question. Because some of the Union Crazies are senior to me. Because it does not take guts to speak out in favor of the union, because the non union types won't mistreat you. If a non union type speaks out, they ARE mistreated by the Crazies. See the difference? My anonymous status status doesn't render my remarks any less honest, it just protects me from the Thugs, among which I don't consider you, Griz. Cheers!

 

[rettofly]

Nope, your at-will, can be fired without just cause and currently have a parent/child relationship with your management. Knowledge of this fact is evident on the faces of every CA, Flex and Avantiar pilot I see out on the road.

I survived five years of the at-will parent-child environment at Avantair. The secret: Do the job in a proactive, professional manner and stand your ground when issues arise that make it necessary to do so.

On the other side of the coin, I was fired from my previous job (my first ever union job after 40+ years in the work force) because the Captain screwed up and convinced me that he had straightened it out with the CP. Silly me. I believed him and failed to throw him under the bus. My Union, which had been collecting my dues via payroll deduction, didn't lift a finger and the steward who was "representing" me didn't say a word during the exit interview.

Forgive me if I'm not a big fan of unions.

 

[gret]

Please spare us your blinding idiocy, specious arguments and non sequitur comments.

Sorry comrade, there doesn't appear to be much support for your ignominious palaver.

 

[warlord19]

Oh, Comrade Gret, he has more support than you can imagine.
I be working fer my mastuh over 10 years now, still goin strong.
WL

 

[wacoflyr]

So, according to some, a union is always necessary. (sigh) I am afraid we shall just have to agree to disagree. I can assure you however, that in poor economic times a union will offer you no more protection from a cash-strapped company than I have. Broke is broke, and a contract cannot conjur money to pay a pilot when there is none.

 

[imacdog]

I know a company where company 401K contributions and no-premium medical plans were not touched due to a union contract. Non-union employees were not as lucky.

 

[RCR5]

I know a company where the union is not going to be able to stop another 300 pilots from losing their jobs. This is on top of the already 500 + that are on the streets. All due to a union contract.

Furloughed pilots were much luckier at a non union company that is now hiring them back.

 

[CA1900]

I know a company where the union is not going to be able to stop another 300 pilots from losing their jobs.

Maybe, maybe not.

This is on top of the already 500 + that are on the streets. All due to a union contract.

Based on what, exactly? We have been, and continue to be, staffed above the contractually-required number of pilots.

Furloughed pilots were much luckier at a non union company that is now hiring them back.

Since they were furloughed almost a year before their union counterparts, I'm not sure exactly how "lucky" I'd consider them.

 

[Praetorian]

So, according to some, a union is always necessary. (sigh) I am afraid we shall just have to agree to disagree. I can assure you however, that in poor economic times a union will offer you no more protection from a cash-strapped company than I have. Broke is broke, and a contract cannot conjur money to pay a pilot when there is none.

You are absolutely correct with this statement. A union cannot protect pilots from bad economic times, or the furloughs they necessitate. But what it can do is make sure everything is done correctly with the furlough and subsequent recall.

First, without a union and a contract there is no such thing as "a right to a furlough and recall." At-will pilots can and often have been fired outright. This gives management an opportunity to replace them with cheaper labor at a later date. Just ask the x/o jet guys.

Second without contract language that outlines how a furlough/recall will be handled you have no guarantee that you will be treated fairly. Will you be furloughed/recalled in seniority order? Will your pay change? What about the type of equipment you will fly when you are recalled. Will you have the right to defer a recall. How much time do you have to make a decision at the time of the recall. How many years are your recall rights good for? Will your company recall you at all, or will you be overlooked in favor of some senior managers brother in law?

These are all questions at-will pilots cannot answer definatively. You are simply at the mercy of, and must rely upon, the benevolence of your companies management. Again a parent/child relationship. Having had it both ways throughout my career at Flight Options, I can tell you I much prefer having things guaranteed in writing.

Waco, you might think you don't really need it in writing at Avantair and neither did I until our last CEO, Sh*tfinger, landed on the property (seemingly out of no ware) after a nefarious career at USAir express. Boy was I wrong. Don't make the same mistake we did.

 

[imacdog]

I know a company where the union is not going to be able to stop another 300 pilots from losing their jobs. This is on top of the already 500 + that are on the streets. All due to a union contract.

Furloughed pilots were much luckier at a non union company that is now hiring them back.

Unions do not magically save jobs, so I'm not sure why you would bring that up. What a union can do is provide a written, legally enforceable agreement between the company and a group of employees on predefined rules and conditions on how such an action can take place. Aside from the 401K, medical premiums, seniority-based furlough, and defined recall rights mentioned earlier, there has been no suspension of the pilot pay scale (like what happened at a non-union fractional), and pilots who did get furloughed due to company overstaffing were given two full months of full pay and benefits after their effective furlough date. This was something not offered to the non-union employee groups who faced the same reduction in force.

 

[RCR5]

Maybe, maybe not.



Based on what, exactly? We have been, and continue to be, staffed above the contractually-required number of pilots.



Since they were furloughed almost a year before their union counterparts, I'm not sure exactly how "lucky" I'd consider them.

Since most are forecasting that they will be out for close to 5 years; do the math. I suspect we will be hiring inside a year. Your union company will be hiring again, when?

300 more out the door......great union work. Regardless, I am sure those 500+ pilots are still loving the union.