Union getting serious at CitationAir

[G4dude]

There is no firmer base from which to make sweeping statements than complete ignorance. I don't know about the other two companies(and have enough sense not to claim I do) but at Avantair we have a process to contest a pilot's termination; it has been used successfully.
I would not judge all of NetJet's pilot's faces, but expect your's constantly reflects the bliss and peace that ignorance brings.

Bravo, Waco!

 

[G4dude]

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

 

[Grizz]

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

Then you should go find another job where your self-actualization will be fully appreciated. Until then, you are part of a union - like it or not.

Like I've said before, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd make the same statements and stand behind them with your real name over on our board. I would honestly think higher of you if you did that - even if I disagree with your statements. As it stands, you cower behind some screen name and toss out tripe without any real commitment.

I've always posted here where people know who I am and I stand behind my posts. How about you grow a pair and do the same G4?

 

[Praetorian]

There is no firmer base from which to make sweeping statements than complete ignorance.

That was really good. Did you find it in a fortune cookie?

I don't know about the other two companies(and have enough sense not to claim I do) but at Avantair we have a process to contest a pilot's termination; it has been used successfully.

What you have is a couple of pilots -hand picked by management- who participate in a show trial, kangaroo court, where management ultimately has the final say.

What you don't have is, a contractually mandated discovery process, prior to presenting the pilots case (with the assistance of a union lawyer) to a system board made up of two union pilots two managers and most importantly a neutral arbitrator, who will rely of years of legal president to determine if there is just cause for termination. Essentially management must prove just cause for termination, which is a very high standard to meet.

I would not judge all of NetJet's pilot's faces, but expect your's constantly reflects the bliss and peace that ignorance brings.

I work for Flight Options not NetJets. But I notice they carry themselves with the pride that comes from having escaped the trap of at will employment. The pride that comes from having a say in the way their company is run. The confidence that comes from knowing they can't be jacked over by some middle management punk trying to make his bones.

 

[wacoflyr]

That was really good. Did you find it in a fortune cookie?

Actually, no. I should have given credit. That's a really old saying, and of course I did not come up with it. I should have put it in quotes.

What you have is a couple of pilots -hand picked by management- who participate in a show trial, kangaroo court, where management ultimately has the final say.

Once again, you state as facts what you do not know. The pilots are our PAC, which the pilots vote for. Management has no say in who we choose, and I suspect management wishes at least two of them were gone.

What you don't have is, a contractually mandated discovery process, prior to presenting the pilots case (with the assistance of a union lawyer) to a system board made up of two union pilots two managers and most importantly a neutral arbitrator, who will rely of years of legal president to determine if there is just cause for termination. Essentially management must prove just cause for termination, which is a very high standard to meet.

That all sounds like a lot of money to accomplish the same thing. Just an opinion. How much do you guys pay in dues? So, to figure your compensation, take your gross, subtract your union dues along with everything else. I like our system.

I work for Flight Options not NetJets. But I notice they carry themselves with the pride that comes from having escaped the trap of at will employment. The pride that comes from having a say in the way their company is run. The confidence that comes from knowing they can't be jacked over by some middle management punk trying to make his bones.

Ah! There I go, falling in the same trap, making assumptions. I guess we both made mistakes here.

Actually, I don't hate unions. From the outside, it looked like Flops needed one. I would probably have voted for it, if I worked there. But I don't work there, I work here, at Avantair. In my opinion, we don't need one.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Actually, I don't hate unions. From the outside, it looked like Flops needed one. I would probably have voted for it, if I worked there. But I don't work there, I work here, at Avantair. In my opinion, we don't need one.

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

 

[wacoflyr]

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

If the majority of our pilots think we need one, we will get one. It's just that simple.

 

[Praetorian]

Waco, you are being manipulated

This is from Martin Levitt’s Confessions of a union buster. Here he describes one of the methods employed by Nathan Shefferman, who in the 1950's, developed many of the methods still employed by union-busting law firms, like the one your company uses today.

“Here is an example from the Shefferman school of subterfuge: Shefferman advised management to institute a device called an employee roundtable. Purportedly designed to give workers a way to air their grievances and influence company policy, in reality the roundtable becomes managements tap into the worker grapevine and its repressive thumb on the informal worker power structure. The regular group meetings provided management with a system for planting information, as well as for identifying and controlling the leaders among employees. But the fact is such committees serve managements interests more directly than the needs of the workers.”


Sounds a bit like your PAC doesn't it?

 

[dime line]

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

Wow, kinda easy being able to say that, knowing you have (like or not) union protection.

 

[RCR5]

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

That has nothing to do with my company and how they do business. I know what goes on here at CA and do not know, nor do I care, what goes on at FLOPS.

My company is a GREAT company to work for and it shows. I have no comment on how things are going now, or in the past for FLOPS.

This is also a CA thread.

 

[wacoflyr]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

 

[Praetorian]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

 

[RCA]

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

 

[Praetorian]

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

Please spare us your blinding idiocy, specious arguments and non sequitur comments.

 

[G4dude]

Then you should go find another job where your self-actualization will be fully appreciated. Until then, you are part of a union - like it or not.

Like I've said before, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd make the same statements and stand behind them with your real name over on our board. I would honestly think higher of you if you did that - even if I disagree with your statements. As it stands, you cower behind some screen name and toss out tripe without any real commitment.

I've always posted here where people know who I am and I stand behind my posts. How about you grow a pair and do the same G4?

A fair question. Because some of the Union Crazies are senior to me. Because it does not take guts to speak out in favor of the union, because the non union types won't mistreat you. If a non union type speaks out, they ARE mistreated by the Crazies. See the difference? My anonymous status status doesn't render my remarks any less honest, it just protects me from the Thugs, among which I don't consider you, Griz. Cheers!