Union getting serious at CitationAir

[7on7Off]

What are you going write? What kind of leader are you recommending? Tell you what, try not to help me anymore, your backwards a$$ is causing enough problems even when you are not trying to do anything. Maybe you never learned to spell properly because there was so little light in the coal mines when you were growing up? Or is it just a simple case of brain damage due to too much CO gas ingestion while you were digging? Picking on you really is like shooting fish in a barrel. Except I would feel sorry for the fish.

I find it ironic that there's a 1 in 3 chance that this was written by the vice chairman of the organizing committee.

 

[FRACTRASH]

OHGOON, I love to misspell words, just to piss you off. Again, you really are on the attack, whats up with all the bottled up Anger towards the good folks at CA who want a Union free work environment? That really makes the Union lovers of America look good. Hell, if you're what there all about, I definitely want no part of Teamsters. I'll still write you the LETTER of recommendation. Go find another place to work. I sure in hell don't want you in my cockpit, it would be ugly.

Keep Citationair Union Free!

 

[SpaceBall 1]

Really?

Just to let you know there are people masquerading as Citation Air pilots who stay at the Holiday Inn Harmon Meadow - Secaucus on a fairly regular basis.

Perhaps your management made a recent change to the hotel policy without input from the pilot group. Again.

Clearly you are someone that has no idea what they are talking about. We went to the Holiday Inn based on input from several pilots (I happen to be one of the several). We were at the Emabassy Suites before. Normally nice, but the discounted rates they gave us, placed us in these old, crappy, corner rooms. It would have been nice to stay there, but Embassy would not honor the discounted rate. Have you stayed at the Holiday Inn? Newly remodeled, close to resturants and the movie theater. I want a clean room, free breakfast, free internet other resturants within a short walk and I am happy. If you need more than that, well, that is your problem.

 

[FRACTRASH]

OHGOON, you can keep the personal attacks coming all day long. You may be an expert at drafting a letter, but this truly shows everyone what a child you are. I'd be careful making fun of us back wood folk, we know how to take care of our kin.


Keep Citationair Union Free!

 

[Helmsalee]

Hey Trash, he apologized and left. Let it go.

 

[RCR5]

Clearly you are someone that has no idea what they are talking about. We went to the Holiday Inn based on input from several pilots (I happen to be one of the several). We were at the Emabassy Suites before. Normally nice, but the discounted rates they gave us, placed us in these old, crappy, corner rooms. It would have been nice to stay there, but Embassy would not honor the discounted rate. Have you stayed at the Holiday Inn? Newly remodeled, close to resturants and the movie theater. I want a clean room, free breakfast, free internet other resturants within a short walk and I am happy. If you need more than that, well, that is your problem.

I have stayed there as well and didn't mind the sports bar/restaurant around the corner OR the corner rooms. All you are doing is sleeping in them and they were VERY comfortable for that. I never understood the angst and whining about that place and that was just another reason I wanted nothing to do with these type of people. They were always the pro union guys expecting every room to be like the Ritz Carlton and wanting more, more, more when what we had was clearly nice and very acceptable.

The worst place I stayed at was the nicest place in town in some podunk little town of 3,000 in the middle of Texas. There was no transportation to and from the town that was 6 miles away from the airport, but we were able to hitch a ride with a guy that happened to be out there and we got a ride back to the plane from the hotel staff. They all were the nicest people you would ever want to meet and they bent over backwards to help us. Sometimes you have to suck it up to get your owner where they want to go....no big deal. It is part of the job. I am sure the pro union folks would cry you a river about this. Again it wasn't ideal, however, this was where our owner needed to go and we made it happen. We let CA know about it and they adjusted fire so we didn't have to stay in that town next time if we didn't want to. We were able to reposition. Neither of us minded, we both had fun with the situation and what it offered.

My point is CA was willing to adjust for the circumstances if we wanted. They did what they could to make it nice for us at that town, but sometimes you just have to take the best that is at that particular locale. There is nothing a union could do to make that situation any better or more feasible to the company than what the company offered.

 

[vrb115]

Guys... Please don't pick on my buddy Fractrash....he is a little misunderstood...I have tried to get him to send in his card. But he won't oh well. He is still a good friend though......


Now on borgart let hime have it......tlking to him is like clapping with one hand!!!

 

[shanes123]

I have stayed there as well and didn't mind the sports bar/restaurant around the corner OR the corner rooms. All you are doing is sleeping in them and they were VERY comfortable for that. I never understood the angst and whining about that place and that was just another reason I wanted nothing to do with these type of people. They were always the pro union guys expecting every room to be like the Ritz Carlton and wanting more, more, more when what we had was clearly nice and very acceptable.

The worst place I stayed at was the nicest place in town in some podunk little town of 3,000 in the middle of Texas. There was no transportation to and from the town that was 6 miles away from the airport, but we were able to hitch a ride with a guy that happened to be out there and we got a ride back to the plane from the hotel staff. They all were the nicest people you would ever want to meet and they bent over backwards to help us. Sometimes you have to suck it up to get your owner where they want to go....no big deal. It is part of the job. I am sure the pro union folks would cry you a river about this. Again it wasn't ideal, however, this was where our owner needed to go and we made it happen. We let CA know about it and they adjusted fire so we didn't have to stay in that town next time if we didn't want to. We were able to reposition. Neither of us minded, we both had fun with the situation and what it offered.

My point is CA was willing to adjust for the circumstances if we wanted. They did what they could to make it nice for us at that town, but sometimes you just have to take the best that is at that particular locale. There is nothing a union could do to make that situation any better or more feasible to the company than what the company offered.

RCR5 Glad you work at CA..They can have you!!!!

 

[RCR5]

RCR5 Glad you work at CA..They can have you!!!!

You're damn right they can!

We are recovering from the recession AND without a union.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Praetorian]

You're damn right they can!

We are recovering from the recession AND without a union.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Nope, your at-will, can be fired without just cause and currently have a parent/child relationship with your management. Knowledge of this fact is evident on the faces of every CA, Flex and Avantiar pilot I see out on the road.

 

[TimsKeeper]

Nope, your at-will, can be fired without just cause and currently have a parent/child relationship with your management. Knowledge of this fact is evident on the faces of every CA, Flex and Avantiar pilot I see out on the road.

Are you still aloud to have an opinion? You better get permission from your union first.

 

[RCR5]

Nope, your at-will, can be fired without just cause and currently have a parent/child relationship with your management. Knowledge of this fact is evident on the faces of every CA, Flex and Avantiar pilot I see out on the road.

Well, you are right. We are at will...thank you very much. That means people have to WORK to keep their jobs and not hide behind a union to 'get over'.

We can be fired without just cause, but we work at CitationAir and that has never happened here so I am sure it won't start now.

We probably do have a parent/child relationship between management and the pro union lemmings because they act like children and need to be fired....but CA is too nice to that, so they just babysit them.

 

[RCR5]

BTW, that look you see on our faces is disbelief at why you are wearing two different color socks in uniform.

 

[wacoflyr]

Nope, your at-will, can be fired without just cause and currently have a parent/child relationship with your management. Knowledge of this fact is evident on the faces of every CA, Flex and Avantiar pilot I see out on the road.

There is no firmer base from which to make sweeping statements than complete ignorance. I don't know about the other two companies(and have enough sense not to claim I do) but at Avantair we have a process to contest a pilot's termination; it has been used successfully.
I would not judge all of NetJet's pilot's faces, but expect your's constantly reflects the bliss and peace that ignorance brings.

 

[dime line]

We can be fired without just cause, but we work at CitationAir and that has never happened here so I am sure it won't start now.

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

 

[G4dude]

There is no firmer base from which to make sweeping statements than complete ignorance. I don't know about the other two companies(and have enough sense not to claim I do) but at Avantair we have a process to contest a pilot's termination; it has been used successfully.
I would not judge all of NetJet's pilot's faces, but expect your's constantly reflects the bliss and peace that ignorance brings.

Bravo, Waco!

 

[G4dude]

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

 

[Grizz]

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

Then you should go find another job where your self-actualization will be fully appreciated. Until then, you are part of a union - like it or not.

Like I've said before, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd make the same statements and stand behind them with your real name over on our board. I would honestly think higher of you if you did that - even if I disagree with your statements. As it stands, you cower behind some screen name and toss out tripe without any real commitment.

I've always posted here where people know who I am and I stand behind my posts. How about you grow a pair and do the same G4?

 

[Praetorian]

There is no firmer base from which to make sweeping statements than complete ignorance.

That was really good. Did you find it in a fortune cookie?

I don't know about the other two companies(and have enough sense not to claim I do) but at Avantair we have a process to contest a pilot's termination; it has been used successfully.

What you have is a couple of pilots -hand picked by management- who participate in a show trial, kangaroo court, where management ultimately has the final say.

What you don't have is, a contractually mandated discovery process, prior to presenting the pilots case (with the assistance of a union lawyer) to a system board made up of two union pilots two managers and most importantly a neutral arbitrator, who will rely of years of legal president to determine if there is just cause for termination. Essentially management must prove just cause for termination, which is a very high standard to meet.

I would not judge all of NetJet's pilot's faces, but expect your's constantly reflects the bliss and peace that ignorance brings.

I work for Flight Options not NetJets. But I notice they carry themselves with the pride that comes from having escaped the trap of at will employment. The pride that comes from having a say in the way their company is run. The confidence that comes from knowing they can't be jacked over by some middle management punk trying to make his bones.

 

[wacoflyr]

That was really good. Did you find it in a fortune cookie?

Actually, no. I should have given credit. That's a really old saying, and of course I did not come up with it. I should have put it in quotes.

What you have is a couple of pilots -hand picked by management- who participate in a show trial, kangaroo court, where management ultimately has the final say.

Once again, you state as facts what you do not know. The pilots are our PAC, which the pilots vote for. Management has no say in who we choose, and I suspect management wishes at least two of them were gone.

What you don't have is, a contractually mandated discovery process, prior to presenting the pilots case (with the assistance of a union lawyer) to a system board made up of two union pilots two managers and most importantly a neutral arbitrator, who will rely of years of legal president to determine if there is just cause for termination. Essentially management must prove just cause for termination, which is a very high standard to meet.

That all sounds like a lot of money to accomplish the same thing. Just an opinion. How much do you guys pay in dues? So, to figure your compensation, take your gross, subtract your union dues along with everything else. I like our system.

I work for Flight Options not NetJets. But I notice they carry themselves with the pride that comes from having escaped the trap of at will employment. The pride that comes from having a say in the way their company is run. The confidence that comes from knowing they can't be jacked over by some middle management punk trying to make his bones.

Ah! There I go, falling in the same trap, making assumptions. I guess we both made mistakes here.

Actually, I don't hate unions. From the outside, it looked like Flops needed one. I would probably have voted for it, if I worked there. But I don't work there, I work here, at Avantair. In my opinion, we don't need one.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Actually, I don't hate unions. From the outside, it looked like Flops needed one. I would probably have voted for it, if I worked there. But I don't work there, I work here, at Avantair. In my opinion, we don't need one.

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

 

[wacoflyr]

From the few fine folks over there at Avantair that I communicate with regularly, I would venture to say your opinion on that one is severely flawed. But what do I know....

If the majority of our pilots think we need one, we will get one. It's just that simple.

 

[Praetorian]

Waco, you are being manipulated

This is from Martin Levitt’s Confessions of a union buster. Here he describes one of the methods employed by Nathan Shefferman, who in the 1950's, developed many of the methods still employed by union-busting law firms, like the one your company uses today.

“Here is an example from the Shefferman school of subterfuge: Shefferman advised management to institute a device called an employee roundtable. Purportedly designed to give workers a way to air their grievances and influence company policy, in reality the roundtable becomes managements tap into the worker grapevine and its repressive thumb on the informal worker power structure. The regular group meetings provided management with a system for planting information, as well as for identifying and controlling the leaders among employees. But the fact is such committees serve managements interests more directly than the needs of the workers.”


Sounds a bit like your PAC doesn't it?

 

[dime line]

I always figured a company has the right to fire me for any reason they want, just like I have the right to take any other job I want. The job is the company's to do with as they see fit, seems to me. In summary, my union doesn't speak for me, I speak for me.

Wow, kinda easy being able to say that, knowing you have (like or not) union protection.

 

[RCR5]

Ok, then i guess it took FLOPS about 10years before they decided to fire 70 pilots with out just cause. I guess management just "felt" like doing it.

That has nothing to do with my company and how they do business. I know what goes on here at CA and do not know, nor do I care, what goes on at FLOPS.

My company is a GREAT company to work for and it shows. I have no comment on how things are going now, or in the past for FLOPS.

This is also a CA thread.

 

[wacoflyr]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

 

[Praetorian]

No.

It sounds to me as if you do not believe that management and pilots can have a positive relationship without a union. Do I have that right? Is a union absolutely necessary to prevent pilots from being oppressed? Is that right? Please answer.

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

 

[RCA]

Waco,

Let me preface my response by saying that it is not my intention to be inflammatory. That being said, the answer to your question is yes. In the same way that a plantation owner and his slaves may have a “positive relationship”, at-will pilots and their management may have a “positive relationship”.

As a prerequisite for this circumstance, I think it is necessary for a benevolent management team, with a benevolent management philosophy, to be part of the equation. Also it is essential that good economic times be present.

In reality what seems to usually happen is that, even under the best of circumstances, managers either bring in an engrained dislike of pilots from an earlier experience in the industry, or their attitudes evolve within the crucible of reality. Let’s face it, our interests as pilots do not always align with those of management. We want to get the job done as safely as possible. Ideally we want to operate equipment that is free of discrepancies. We want lots of rest in-between duty days.

Management on the other hand, especially during difficult economic times, wants to simply fill the schedule with the pilots and aircraft at hand. They don’t want to hear about broken planes, tired pilots at bad weather conditions. The very first pilots union was started, in 1919, by a group of airmail pilots in NJ in response to pilots being fired because they refused to fly in 0/0 conditions in a Curtis Jenny, which had rudimentary flight instruments. They organized and the pilots were reinstated.

You currently serve at pleasure of your employer. You can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. What this means is that your management is your parent. Because you can be terminated at the whim of your management you are their child. Just as it is within my power to have my Golden Retriever euthanized tomorrow morning without question, your management may terminate your employment tomorrow morning, throwing you and your family into turmoil.

As I’ve said before, union pilots enjoy Just Cause previsions contained within their contracts. This inherently changes their relationships with their management.

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

 

[Praetorian]

One MAJOR difference. Your golden retriever didn't sign a "be euthanized at any moment" contract.

Please spare us from your overly dramatic comparison.

Please spare us your blinding idiocy, specious arguments and non sequitur comments.

 

[G4dude]

Then you should go find another job where your self-actualization will be fully appreciated. Until then, you are part of a union - like it or not.

Like I've said before, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd make the same statements and stand behind them with your real name over on our board. I would honestly think higher of you if you did that - even if I disagree with your statements. As it stands, you cower behind some screen name and toss out tripe without any real commitment.

I've always posted here where people know who I am and I stand behind my posts. How about you grow a pair and do the same G4?

A fair question. Because some of the Union Crazies are senior to me. Because it does not take guts to speak out in favor of the union, because the non union types won't mistreat you. If a non union type speaks out, they ARE mistreated by the Crazies. See the difference? My anonymous status status doesn't render my remarks any less honest, it just protects me from the Thugs, among which I don't consider you, Griz. Cheers!