What do RJET pilots think happens after RJET SLI?

[SizzleChest]

Nice to see the teamsters are trying to do to the YX pilots what the teamsters did to the YX f/a's. They are trying to convince the NMB that YX pilots shouldn't be included in the single carrier petition. Again the RAH pilots show their true colors.

But you understand now that it was in error and has been corrected?

 

[likeitis]

But you understand now that it was in error and has been corrected?

No it wasn't an error. IBT position is that YX pilots shouldn't be included like they did with the F/A's.

The error was the NMB didn't include the YX pilots after the YX ALPA called to discus if they were to be involved. The NMB ruled that they were to be involved and they screwed up the followup paperwork and left ALPA out. It was a screw up by the NMB not the IBT. The IBT purposely omitted ALPA and fully believes they shouldn't be involved as they did with the F/A's.

Read the email from ALPA again.

 

[CitationLover]

But you understand now that it was in error and has been corrected?

Just like.....

coming in full uniforms after they said they wouldn't;

releasing documents they were expressly forbidden to do by the arbitrator;

and now this.



I'm sensing a pattern here. Is Sarah Palin running the IBT, cause they seem to be just as moronish here. Can they see Russia from Indianapolis?

The "calling the shots people at the IBT" includes someone who used to the negotiating committee chairman at Midwest. This "6 letters in 6 days" jackass is really trying to f@#$ his former compatriots.

 

[ultrarunner]

"...it’s true that the single carrier petition the IBT filed with the NMB did not include ALPA. Their position is the same one they took with the flight attendants—that Midwest does not exist and the representative for the Midwest employees is not a party..."


WOW!

But it's Teamsters...so no surprise there.

Just incredible.

 

[Flying Illini]

Geez guys, this is not an argument on schlong size. Just stating that the F9 pilots have 10-30k hour captains and 7-10k hr fo's while us RJ guys have 3-5k hr captains and 1-3k hr fo's. Just a wide disparity in the overall experience of each pilot group. Plus there is a huge difference in hiring standards between a commuter operation and a mainline operation.

Just flew with one of our 18yr captains who has over 22K hours. As an FO with 3.5 years here I have over 5K hours. This isn't everyone's first professional pilot job and some of us had an ATP, several type-ratings and more than 500hrs when we were hired.

That said, I see what you're saying but just be careful about categorizing everyone identically.

 

[CitationLover]

Just flew with one of our 18yr captains who has over 22K hours. As an FO with 3.5 years here I have over 5K hours. This isn't everyone's first professional pilot job and some of us had an ATP, several type-ratings and more than 500hrs when we were hired.

That said, I see what you're saying but just be careful about categorizing everyone identically.

over 5K hours and paid and treated like you have none. beautiful. EVERY FO at Midwest made more than that.

 

[DeucesWild]

Just flew with one of our 18yr captains who has over 22K hours. As an FO with 3.5 years here I have over 5K hours.

With experience like that, the two of you should consider moving on to something else.... like say, the bottom of a seniority list at a major?? Just like everyone of those people at a major did.

 

[SizzleChest]

Just like.....

coming in full uniforms after they said they wouldn't;

releasing documents they were expressly forbidden to do by the arbitrator;

and now this.



I'm sensing a pattern here. Is Sarah Palin running the IBT, cause they seem to be just as moronish here. Can they see Russia from Indianapolis?

The "calling the shots people at the IBT" includes someone who used to the negotiating committee chairman at Midwest. This "6 letters in 6 days" jackass is really trying to f@#$ his former compatriots.

Do you have any proof though that the arbitrator specifically forbid the info release? If he had, why are they still posted? If there was any truth to this they would have removed them right?

and who gives a crap about uniforms or not? maybe the jumpseated in?

 

[redflyer65]

When is the SLI supposed to really be released?

 

[likeitis]

Do you have any proof though that the arbitrator specifically forbid the info release? If he had, why are they still posted? If there was any truth to this they would have removed them right?

and who gives a crap about uniforms or not? maybe the jumpseated in?

As I was told it was agreed that they would release the info AFTER the FINAL decision was released. After the IBT released it early all the parties discussed it and the arbitrator was far from happy but realized the cat was out of the bag and decided it was no use restricting now.

Again the dress code was requested by the arbitrator and agreed to by all parties. Just goes to show the respect the RAH guys have for agreements. Why would they expect the company to follow an agreement if they can't.

The final SLI will be released 12-1.

 

[CitationLover]

As I was told it was agreed that they would release the info AFTER the FINAL decision was released. After the IBT released it early all the parties discussed it and the arbitrator was far from happy but realized the cat was out of the bag and decided it was no use restricting now.

Again the dress code was requested by the arbitrator and agreed to by all parties. Just goes to show the respect the RAH guys have for agreements. Why would they expect the company to follow an agreement if they can't.

The final SLI will be released 12-1.

You said it. Fully expect a staple from #125 and below (almost 3/4 of the MEH pilots).

The RAH pilots deserve the crappy leadership they're getting. Hopefully SH can assist the "rally" with a letter campaign like he did at MEH. Make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[CitationLover]

Do you have any proof though that the arbitrator specifically forbid the info release? If he had, why are they still posted? If there was any truth to this they would have removed them right?

and who gives a crap about uniforms or not? maybe the jumpseated in?

Why do you TRUST your leadership? It's almost laughable. The IBT has gotten you what in your negotiations with the company? Google lackey. At least FAPA had the nads to TRY (thats all we wanted at MEH) and fight for ALL FAPA pilots (on and off property). Our ALPA leadership showed its self interests with disregarding well over half of our list.

Consistently throughout the entire process the IBT has shown a selfish interest and admitted to the above accusations. Three of the four parties agree with how the IBT is acting (everyone else dress like they agreed to it except one, everyone else did not release the proposals except one), yet you seem to continue to spout the IBT line. Keep falling for it: hook, line, and sinker.

 

[getnverted]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of hang up on the RAH guys showing up in uniform. Some folks on here seem to have a lot of inside info. How does anyone know what the arbitrator agreed to on the dress code? Are we going by what our reps told us? If that's the case, our reps said the dress code was never mentioned and they always show up to an arbitration in uniform on day one.

Seriously, we are worked up over how people were dressed?

The RAH union leadership has said that we shouldn't pay attention to the proposals because they are what they are and each group was looking out for their own side. They claim the union's job is to look out for their membership, but at the end of the day we need to respect the arbitrator's ruling and come together as one group.

It seems to me the best thing to do is be one unified group fighting managment. If we can retain scope and make this an airline where you go from smallest rj up through narrow body (and possibly beyond) shouldn't we try that? Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of the legacy's? Is there any reason we can't leave our ego's aside and work as one group, whoever the union is, to make this a successful airline?

The folks in the know seem to be on the F9 and YX side...funny how RAH has supposedly leaked so much info. Leaving the typical urinating contests aside about integration, who dressed how, technicalities about NMB filings, is it possible for these pilot groups to come together?

That's the main question I hear on the line at RAH. We hope to join together as one group, regardless of the ruling, and fight management as a unified group.

 

[StaySeated]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of hang up on the RAH guys showing up in uniform. Some folks on here seem to have a lot of inside info. How does anyone know what the arbitrator agreed to on the dress code? Are we going by what our reps told us? If that's the case, our reps said the dress code was never mentioned and they always show up to an arbitration in uniform on day one.

Seriously, we are worked up over how people were dressed?

The RAH union leadership has said that we shouldn't pay attention to the proposals because they are what they are and each group was looking out for their own side. They claim the union's job is to look out for their membership, but at the end of the day we need to respect the arbitrator's ruling and come together as one group.

It seems to me the best thing to do is be one unified group fighting managment. If we can retain scope and make this an airline where you go from smallest rj up through narrow body (and possibly beyond) shouldn't we try that? Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of the legacy's? Is there any reason we can't leave our ego's aside and work as one group, whoever the union is, to make this a successful airline?

The folks in the know seem to be on the F9 and YX side...funny how RAH has supposedly leaked so much info. Leaving the typical urinating contests aside about integration, who dressed how, technicalities about NMB filings, is it possible for these pilot groups to come together?

That's the main question I hear on the line at RAH. We hope to join together as one group, regardless of the ruling, and fight management as a unified group.

I believe that if you had all 3,000 pilots in a room and asked each of them individually, each one would agree that we should "join together".

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is slightly more complicated.

"Join together" as Teamsters?

"Join together" as an Independent Union?

ALPA?

We don't have a "join together" button that you can push.

There are four pilot groups and three CBA's involved in this circus.

Only one CBA has airbus payrates. Only one CBA has pay raises going forward.

The pilots involved need to get over the name on the union letterhead and figure out which bargaining unit is going to provide the highest level of service.

I just can't fathom why ANYONE would support a labor organization that has been sitting on their hands for several years, doing nothing with an amendable CBA. The most common RAH/IBT defense of their current Chautauqua CBA is that was "ratified in 2003". While that is a true statement, the Chautauqua CBA became amendable in October 2007. Three years have passed, with zero progress.

We could be having an entirely different discussion today had the Local IBT leadership successfully negotiated a new CBA or at least had some TA's that could be used as negotiating leverage.

For the first time in the history of aviation, a new aircraft type was added to a new certificate, AFTER the amendable date of the controlling CBA, yet NO new pay rate was established. You didn't need new language to open the CBA because your ENTIRE CBA is currently open for negotiation, yet the local IBT leadership does nothing.

Think about that for a moment when the IBT begins their representation drive.

Unfortunately, by doing nothing, the Local IBT leadership has in effect alienated the entire pilot group.

 

[SizzleChest]

As I was told it was agreed that they would release the info AFTER the FINAL decision was released. After the IBT released it early all the parties discussed it and the arbitrator was far from happy but realized the cat was out of the bag and decided it was no use restricting now.

Again the dress code was requested by the arbitrator and agreed to by all parties. Just goes to show the respect the RAH guys have for agreements. Why would they expect the company to follow an agreement if they can't.

The final SLI will be released 12-1.

Well if we are going by "what we are told" i was told that the arbitrator had no problem with the info release. how could he then be "far from happy"?

As far as the dress code, what does it matter? Really? what difference does it make?

And there is no credibility to the line "why would they expect the company to follow an agrteement if they can't. (?)". There is no relationship there to compare.

 

[SizzleChest]

Why do you TRUST your leadership? It's almost laughable. The IBT has gotten you what in your negotiations with the company? Google lackey. At least FAPA had the nads to TRY (thats all we wanted at MEH) and fight for ALL FAPA pilots (on and off property). Our ALPA leadership showed its self interests with disregarding well over half of our list.

Consistently throughout the entire process the IBT has shown a selfish interest and admitted to the above accusations. Three of the four parties agree with how the IBT is acting (everyone else dress like they agreed to it except one, everyone else did not release the proposals except one), yet you seem to continue to spout the IBT line. Keep falling for it: hook, line, and sinker.

Being as that I am not on a NC, I cannot say what they have gotten in negotiations. If you aren't on the NC, you wouldn't know either. Sound like you aren't happy with your union either. Each union fought for what they felt was right in the SLI proposals. Everyone is going to say theirs is the best against all the others. Of course the non-IBT people are going to say IBT sucks. They want their union to continue as the union from here on out. FAPA and the other unions pressed quite hard to get copies of the proposals so they couldn't have been too horrified. There's no falling for anything. Many of the RAH pilots are far from being "pie pipered" or "falling for it hook, line and sinker." Maybe the other unions secretly feel that the RAH proposal has the best chances of winning? We won't know until 12/1 anyhow. The arbitrator must have needed more time after MEH ALPA extended the deadline TWICE.

 

[SizzleChest]

I believe that if you had all 3,000 pilots in a room and asked each of them individually, each one would agree that we should "join together".

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is slightly more complicated.

"Join together" as Teamsters?

"Join together" as an Independent Union?

ALPA?

We don't have a "join together" button that you can push.

There are four pilot groups and three CBA's involved in this circus.

Only one CBA has airbus payrates. Only one CBA has pay raises going forward.

The pilots involved need to get over the name on the union letterhead and figure out which bargaining unit is going to provide the highest level of service.

I just can't fathom why ANYONE would support a labor organization that has been sitting on their hands for several years, doing nothing with an amendable CBA. The most common RAH/IBT defense of their current Chautauqua CBA is that was "ratified in 2003". While that is a true statement, the Chautauqua CBA became amendable in October 2007. Three years have passed, with zero progress.

We could be having an entirely different discussion today had the Local IBT leadership successfully negotiated a new CBA or at least had some TA's that could be used as negotiating leverage.

For the first time in the history of aviation, a new aircraft type was added to a new certificate, AFTER the amendable date of the controlling CBA, yet NO new pay rate was established. You didn't need new language to open the CBA because your ENTIRE CBA is currently open for negotiation, yet the local IBT leadership does nothing.

Think about that for a moment when the IBT begins their representation drive.

Unfortunately, by doing nothing, the Local IBT leadership has in effect alienated the entire pilot group.

And only one CBA has scope and only one CBA has this and that and another thing... that's why there is amalgamation in the process chain. I agree people need to join together and everyone is hoping for that going forward as things have been busy in the airline world. What many people fail to realize is that negotiations aren't one sided. If the company drags their feet and the NMB hasn't released anyobody what are you going to do? many of the ideas passed on BBSes are either not RLA legal or simply not an option. Things like "don't go to work and call off!", "issue press releases!", etc. RAH management is very good at showing up and saying "we're not prepared to talk about that" ad naseum. No new payrate was established as an arbitrator deemed it a 99-seat plane which is covered by the CBA. BB has said that 195s will need to be negotiated and post his UCB show, has dangled the payraise carrot to the employees. The funny thing is that in the same sentence it is reported that he said "the IBT will need to help there." or something to that effect. Just another way to spin it back onto and blame the pilots. Everyone is looking fwd to contract talks resuming but an EXCO swap sine they last were held has a spool-up time involved. Contract talks dragging out is very common in the industry now. Look what it took at FL to get a TA....

 

[likeitis]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of hang up on the RAH guys showing up in uniform. Some folks on here seem to have a lot of inside info. How does anyone know what the arbitrator agreed to on the dress code? Are we going by what our reps told us? If that's the case, our reps said the dress code was never mentioned and they always show up to an arbitration in uniform on day one.

Seriously, we are worked up over how people were dressed?

The RAH union leadership has said that we shouldn't pay attention to the proposals because they are what they are and each group was looking out for their own side. They claim the union's job is to look out for their membership, but at the end of the day we need to respect the arbitrator's ruling and come together as one group.

It seems to me the best thing to do is be one unified group fighting managment. If we can retain scope and make this an airline where you go from smallest rj up through narrow body (and possibly beyond) shouldn't we try that? Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of the legacy's? Is there any reason we can't leave our ego's aside and work as one group, whoever the union is, to make this a successful airline?

The folks in the know seem to be on the F9 and YX side...funny how RAH has supposedly leaked so much info. Leaving the typical urinating contests aside about integration, who dressed how, technicalities about NMB filings, is it possible for these pilot groups to come together?

That's the main question I hear on the line at RAH. We hope to join together as one group, regardless of the ruling, and fight management as a unified group.

The information about the time of release of the proposals and the request for dress code from the arbitrator wasn't protected under the confidentiality agreements unlike the proposals which the teamsters leaked.
The arbitrator requested the dress code because he's played this game before. There is always some dickhead who thinks he can have a leg up by their unreasonable belief that the uniform will influence by it's projection of authority. Why do you think your truckers union has a policy of testifying in uniform. I think he wanted to put the process above high school drama.

 

[likeitis]

Well if we are going by "what we are told" i was told that the arbitrator had no problem with the info release. how could he then be "far from happy"?

As far as the dress code, what does it matter? Really? what difference does it make?

And there is no credibility to the line "why would they expect the company to follow an agrteement if they can't. (?)". There is no relationship there to compare.

Like was said before, you can believe the truckers union or you can believe the other 3 who are saying they are liars. I think if FAPA, IBT and the Lynx union is saying ALPA isn't telling the truth, I'm going to tend believe the majority.

 

[SizzleChest]

Like was said before, you can believe the truckers union or you can believe the other 3 who are saying they are liars. I think if FAPA, IBT and the Lynx union is saying ALPA isn't telling the truth, I'm going to tend believe the majority.

I'm not going to be a follower of the majority like you say you are. I'd rather see the arbitrator make a staement or a punishment if his wishes were truly violated. It doesn't matter in the end because it's a he said, he said situation.