What do RJET pilots think happens after RJET SLI?

[The Drizzle]

If FAPA has a superior CBA, and they experience the least amount of damage as a result of the SLI, can anyone think of a reason NOT to vote independent?

It will keep coming back to LOA 39. Now before you harp on us about how we don't understandwhat it means, just realize that many of us have sat down and read both the LOA and the current F9 contract, how the two interact and intersect. Understand that I went back and read and studied both at face value and I'd have to agree with your take on it in the other thread. It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys. I then went back and read it through the lens of almost 6 years under the BB/WH wunder-team and saw what a disaster it could be. With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us. I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us.

I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike.

Make no mistake, the current pilots of the RAH seniority list have had enough of the treatment we've received. Both from outside and within. I can only hope that the incoming pilots with the SLI will be as willing to shut this place down as we are getting now. I hope that there won't be a Mainline-RJ mentality disconnect, we have an excellent opportunity here and I'd like for egos to not ruin it for everybody.

That was a bit of thread drift on my part. We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality, but in a "It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team" mentality. I won't hold out hope, though.

 

[Cardinal]

"It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team"

Huzzah!

 

[StaySeated]

It will keep coming back to LOA 39. Now before you harp on us about how we don't understandwhat it means, just realize that many of us have sat down and read both the LOA and the current F9 contract, how the two interact and intersect. Understand that I went back and read and studied both at face value and I'd have to agree with your take on it in the other thread. It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys. I then went back and read it through the lens of almost 6 years under the BB/WH wunder-team and saw what a disaster it could be. With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us. I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us.

I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike.

Make no mistake, the current pilots of the RAH seniority list have had enough of the treatment we've received. Both from outside and within. I can only hope that the incoming pilots with the SLI will be as willing to shut this place down as we are getting now. I hope that there won't be a Mainline-RJ mentality disconnect, we have an excellent opportunity here and I'd like for egos to not ruin it for everybody.

That was a bit of thread drift on my part. We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality, but in a "It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team" mentality. I won't hold out hope, though.

I am not sure where to begin with a response.

"With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us."

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I assume Force Majeure, again. Force Majeure only effects FAPA staffing. That is it. F-A-P-A S-T-A-F-F-I-N-G. That is it. Could they have a "field day" with maintaining a minimum number of FAPA pilots? They either keep a minimum number of FAPA pilots or they don't. End of field day, and end of story.

"It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys."

It wasn't neutral. It was an improvement in Scope and Pay.

"I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us."

Have they reached out to FAPA? Any phone calls fostering teamwork and collaboration? Any strategic meeting between IBT and FAPA at all? By "ALL" do you mean ALL or just the current IBT members?

This next paragraph is critical for all current IBT members to understand:

"I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

It doesn't matter what your "local" is called, you are still IBT. Period.
357 vs 747, Glock vs Airbus, doesn't matter. You are still IBT.

Who collects the dues? IBT

Who represents the pilots in a representation dispute? Baptiste and Wilder, IBT Counsel.

Who hires outside consultants? Your local or national? National IBT.

Who conducts your PR and communications? IBT Local 1224

That brings up another question. What is the difference between Local 1224, local 357, and local 747? (Other than mailing address.)

What in the world is "lobbying ability" and why do you want your dues dollars to "lobby" for something that you may or may not support?

"I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

Sympathy strikes?!?

Before I expand on that concept we should talk about the fact that the IBT has been doing nothing for years when they should have been negotiating an amended CBA. You are YEARS away from mediation, cooling off, and release. You are never going to have an opportunity to strike, and claiming that as a reason to remain IBT is senseless.

But, since you brought up sympathy strikes and amerijet, I feel compelled to comment. The sympathy strikers were teamster members that refused to load frieght/cargo. Amerijet is a cargo carrier. That may or may not have had an impact at amerijet, but it absolutely will not have an impact here. Unless the gate agents rapidly become teamsters and then refuse to open the jetbridge door in an effort to block our passengers, I don't think a sympathy strike has anything to do with our futures.

"We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality"

This isn't a d1ck measuring contest. We are about to participate in a representation election. What better way to judge the effectiveness of each bargaining unit than the CBA's that they have negotiated?

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.

 

[Flying Illini]

I guess that settles it, FAPA is the bestest union out there!! <rolleyes>

The new local 357 has been in office since the first of september. They are already miles ahead of what 747/1224 provided us with. Gene Sowell left us beyond "high and dry."

I'm doubting the IBT is the way to go, I know ALPA is NOT the way to go. FAPA? no. RAPA? Maybe. Personally, I'm really looking forward to the representation drives!

 

[The Drizzle]

I am not sure where to begin with a response.

"With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us."

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I assume Force Majeure, again. Force Majeure only effects FAPA staffing. That is it. F-A-P-A S-T-A-F-F-I-N-G. That is it. Could they have a "field day" with maintaining a minimum number of FAPA pilots? They either keep a minimum number of FAPA pilots or they don't. End of field day, and end of story.

"It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys."

It wasn't neutral. It was an improvement in Scope and Pay.

"I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us."

Have they reached out to FAPA? Any phone calls fostering teamwork and collaboration? Any strategic meeting between IBT and FAPA at all? By "ALL" do you mean ALL or just the current IBT members?

This next paragraph is critical for all current IBT members to understand:

"I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

It doesn't matter what your "local" is called, you are still IBT. Period.
357 vs 747, Glock vs Airbus, doesn't matter. You are still IBT.

Who collects the dues? IBT

Who represents the pilots in a representation dispute? Baptiste and Wilder, IBT Counsel.

Who hires outside consultants? Your local or national? National IBT.

Who conducts your PR and communications? IBT Local 1224

That brings up another question. What is the difference between Local 1224, local 357, and local 747? (Other than mailing address.)

What in the world is "lobbying ability" and why do you want your dues dollars to "lobby" for something that you may or may not support?

"I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

Sympathy strikes?!?

Before I expand on that concept we should talk about the fact that the IBT has been doing nothing for years when they should have been negotiating an amended CBA. You are YEARS away from mediation, cooling off, and release. You are never going to have an opportunity to strike, and claiming that as a reason to remain IBT is senseless.

But, since you brought up sympathy strikes and amerijet, I feel compelled to comment. The sympathy strikers were teamster members that refused to load frieght/cargo. Amerijet is a cargo carrier. That may or may not have had an impact at amerijet, but it absolutely will not have an impact here. Unless the gate agents rapidly become teamsters and then refuse to open the jetbridge door in an effort to block our passengers, I don't think a sympathy strike has anything to do with our futures.

"We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality"

This isn't a d1ck measuring contest. We are about to participate in a representation election. What better way to judge the effectiveness of each bargaining unit than the CBA's that they have negotiated?

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.

I had a whole long winded response but I deleted it because it all boils down to one request:

Convince me that the minority with experience will represent the majority without, equally.

 

[The Drizzle]

Also, learn to use the quote function. Makes it easier on all of our eyes.

 

[The Drizzle]

When I say, "Convince me" I mean FAPA, not you.

 

[Ur Dad]

RAH management better change it's tune or else we r ********************ed. There is no way with the current mood of the employees of all of our airlines would we be able to even come close to hanging with the new SWA.

 

[SkywayFO]

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.[/QUOTE]

To all the above that speak of how many times has 357 done X? Answer a lot more than FAPA, not here at 357 but the top leadership has been around the block a few times. Have you ever really researched 1224 and seen the contract at ABX? Even the cuts after BK and overseas owenership there contract is better then anything FAPA can say they have done. We are actually pretty much independent we don't have to go to the airline division for permission on much of anything, we do have them for support if and when we need them. As for who represents us, that depends on our needs for the situation. We do not use IBT council, we have just hired our own and use some others when the need come about. 357 is basically an independent union with the backing of the IBT. And to cover the question about dues, less the than you pay at FAPA. I wish all of the changes were as easy as a snap of the fingers, they are not. But the top leadership here at 357 is not as new as you make them out to be. I would verture to guess they have been union reps longer and have more experience then any of the FAPA folks. Just a guess though.

 

[Megalops]

He was asking how much of your dues go to national, not how much you pay. How much goes to National IBT? You know to protect truckers and stevedores rights, do you even know? Honest question. Comparing your contract and ABX you just lost me there, is yours as good as theirs? Or ours? Maybe your trying to say IT WILL BE as good as ABX, IBT just needs some sweeeet time. Hard to stay on the task at hand when you have to take a time out for embezzlers. Wait what section addresses retirement in the IBT contract I can't find it? Trip rig? Duty rig?, swap? Drop? Add? Monthly open time? Daily open time?

 

[StaySeated]

I think I have some legitimate questions.

So far the answers have been the following:

1. The new local is better than the old local.

2. We are basically independent, except when it comes to everything that matters. In those cases, there is a really experienced local (1224) that we rely upon. Soooo we are not independent at all, except when we have to run against another independent union, we will say that we are an independent local, but we can't function without the assistance of other locals.


Definition of INDEPENDENT

1
: not dependent: as a (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit <an independent bookstore> b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else: : not requiring or relying on others (as for care or livelihood)

Look, I am not saying that FAPA is the greatest thing ever, I am just a satisfied member. I think you would have a hard time finding a member of FAPA that is not happy with their level of representation.

Mr. Skyway FO says "Answer a lot more than FAPA, not here at 357 but the top leadership has been around the block a few times"

Again, you are independent when it suits your argument, but your not independent when you can't support your point of view with substance and experience.

Forget all of those other pesky and annoying questions about experience and ability. I understand how difficult those can be to answer.

Who will be on the representation ballot (If the IBT fails to obtain representation status without an election, which we all know they will attempt)?

Are we voting for Local 357? (This is the apparent "independent" union)

or

Are we voting for Local 1224? (This is the apparent "experienced" union)

or

Are we voting for the IBT? (This is the big bad IBT that no one likes so we sugar coat and hide them behind warm and fuzzy "locals")

This is not a personal attack on drizzle or skyway or any one of your new union guys that have stepped up to the plate. These are serious, legitimate questions that 3000+ pilots deserve to have answered.

 

[The Drizzle]

It will be the Local 357 on the ballot. The charter is signed and we are separate. A lot has changed. You haven't seen it, because the campaigning hasn't started yet for who will represent us. I've seriously looked into your arguments and claims and done comparisons on my own personal level. IBT 357 comes ahead for me, for now. Not only are they already representing us better than we've ever been before, we have the distinct pleasure of writing our own by-laws. We are in control. The IBT International wants to make the example of us, to not treat us as a hobby as before with the 747 and GS. They are treating us like valued members, treating us like an important part of trade unionism.

They are both new and experienced. New by-laws, new leadership. Experienced council, experienced business agents. Some gleaned from the 1224, some form outside.

I'm excited for the first time in 6 years about our representation.

 

[chqflyer]

It will be the Local 357 on the ballot. The charter is signed and we are separate. A lot has changed. You haven't seen it, because the campaigning hasn't started yet for who will represent us. I've seriously looked into your arguments and claims and done comparisons on my own personal level. IBT 357 comes ahead for me, for now. Not only are they already representing us better than we've ever been before, we have the distinct pleasure of writing our own by-laws. We are in control. The IBT International wants to make the example of us, to not treat us as a hobby as before with the 747 and GS. They are treating us like valued members, treating us like an important part of trade unionism.

They are both new and experienced. New by-laws, new leadership. Experienced council, experienced business agents. Some gleaned from the 1224, some form outside.

I'm excited for the first time in 6 years about our representation.

I'm not. I still think the girl scouts would be better representation.

 

[The Drizzle]

I'm not. I still think the girl scouts would be better representation.

Probably because like many of our 25-35 year old momma's boys we have working with us, you have unrealistic expectations of what any airline union can do for you.

 

[Bluestreak]

Probably because like many of our 25-35 year old momma's boys we have working with us, you have unrealistic expectations of what any airline union can do for you.

No you di-int ! Hey,can we take a strike vote now ? This SLI didn't take into account I don't have any turbine PIC.....blah,blah,blah....

 

[Axel]

Probably because like many of our 25-35 year old momma's boys we have working with us, you have unrealistic expectations of what any airline union can do for you.

As well as a skewed perception of your own importance. You may have been the center of the universe during your formative years, but in the real world you are plankton.

 

[The Drizzle]

As well as a skewed perception of your own importance. You may have been the center of the universe during your formative years, but in the real world you are plankton.

But plankton get eaten by krill, krill gets eaten by whales and whales eaten by the Japanese. Ergo, I created the Playstation. Bow before me.

 

[Cardinal]

Classy move by your 'experienced,' 'independent' IBT local today. Release the confidential SLI proposals ahead of the award. For the sole purpose of stirring the pot? Get everyone hot and bothered almost two months before the final award? Prove to your membership that the local has done something, anything? This from the the folks who showed up to said SLI arbitration late, hung over, and dressed like penguins. Another amateurish, classless move. Better hope you didn't piss off the arbitrator today.

 

[SizzleChest]

But plankton get eaten by krill, krill gets eaten by whales and whales eaten by the Japanese. Ergo, I created the Playstation. Bow before me.

That. Was. Awesome. LO frickin' L

 

[Flying Illini]

Classy move by your 'experienced,' 'independent' IBT local today. Release the confidential SLI proposals ahead of the award. For the sole purpose of stirring the pot? Get everyone hot and bothered almost two months before the final award? Prove to your membership that the local has done something, anything? This from the the folks who showed up to said SLI arbitration late, hung over, and dressed like penguins. Another amateurish, classless move. Better hope you didn't piss off the arbitrator today.

That's pretty inflamatory. Any proof?