What do RJET pilots think happens after RJET SLI?

[F9 Driver]

Arbitrator Eischen's final SLI award is due in mid November.

I'm curious, what changes to daily life are the new RAH IBT leadership, the L3 UTU leadership and YX ALPA leadership telling their members to expect after this award is handed down and when do you expect them?

What I've overheard in the crew room is so far from reality that some serious management of expectations is required.

Settled RLA law defines the process after the award. Before any change to daily operation occurs: 1) One of the participating unions needs to petition the NMB to determine if the groups constitute a "single carrier" for purposes of representation. 2) IF the NMB rules that a single carrier exists the entire integrated group must decide on a single union to represent them. (If the NMB doesn't find that a single carrier exists - all bets are off and the lawyers get paid more to figure out what we do next.) 3) That single union must negotiate a TA with RAH management, and ratify with the entire membership, an amalgamated contract that includes a mechanism to implement the arbitrator's decision - and all of the other issues that have been open for the past few years.

Unless all of these steps are completed, the SLI award and resultant MSL mean diddly squat. Even if the process works like clockwork I doubt any change will be felt for a long time to come.

I post this because I am hearing more and more questions / statements about next steps and am afraid that there will be lots of misguided expectations, disappointment, and USAir / America West type sentiment come November.

 

[kf4amu]

RJET pilots will most likely think a quick upgrade and shiny jets will happen.

 

[The Drizzle]

Settled RLA law defines the process after the award. Before any change to daily operation occurs: 1) One of the participating unions needs to petition the NMB to determine if the groups constitute a "single carrier" for purposes of representation. 2) IF the NMB rules that a single carrier exists the entire integrated group must decide on a single union to represent them. (If the NMB doesn't find that a single carrier exists - all bets are off and the lawyers get paid more to figure out what we do next.) 3) That single union must negotiate a TA with RAH management, and ratify with the entire membership, an amalgamated contract that includes a mechanism to implement the arbitrator's decision - and all of the other issues that have been open for the past few years.

For those who have been paying attention to our leadership and SLI team, the above is what we expect. I don't know what you are hearing from across the room, but most of the impatience I hear is just wanting to know the arbitrators's decision. I think a fair amount know that it isn't going to be an instant, "flip the switch" situation.

Even if the process works like clockwork I doubt any change will be felt for a long time to come.

That's likely a good thing, gives us all time to gel, hopefully.

......and am afraid that there will be lots of misguided expectations, disappointment, and USAir / America West type sentiment come November.

Me too, from all sides.

RJET pilots will most likely think a quick upgrade and shiny jets will happen.

This is old. Get over yourself.

 

[chqflyer]

Does it really make any ********************ing difference? The way things are going, we're gonna be outta business within a year.

 

[Jetjockey]

Does it really make any ********************ing difference? The way things are going, we're gonna be outta business within a year.

Remain calm, everything is fine. All is under control. Nothing to see here. Move along. You just keep flying that EMB-190 at rates that are 1/3 of what you should be making.

 

[StaySeated]

Does it really make any ********************ing difference? The way things are going, we're gonna be outta business within a year.

I think there may be some merit to this. I would not be surprised if one or two of the certificates currently held under the RAH umbrella ceased to exist in the not to distant future.

"Republic" will holding company will remain in business, but it is going to look completely different than it does today.

"Settled RLA law defines the process after the award. Before any change to daily operation occurs: 1) One of the participating unions needs to petition the NMB to determine if the groups constitute a "single carrier" for purposes of representation. 2) IF the NMB rules that a single carrier exists the entire integrated group must decide on a single union to represent them. (If the NMB doesn't find that a single carrier exists - all bets are off and the lawyers get paid more to figure out what we do next.) 3) That single union must negotiate a TA with RAH management, and ratify with the entire membership, an amalgamated contract that includes a mechanism to implement the arbitrator's decision - and all of the other issues that have been open for the past few years."

I don't know why anyone would believe something different than the above. All of the involved parties agreed to this exact scenario prior to the beginning of the SLI negotiations.

I am hoping that the above process takes enough time for all of us to get on the same page.

The IBT is going to try and become the bargaining unit without even holding an election. That in and of itself should tell everyone how strong they feel about their chances in a fair election.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Are you guys implying there will be more furloughs? I thought Republic was hiring. I'm guessing the Midwest pilots will not be offered meaningful employment for years.

 

[The Drizzle]

The IBT is going to try and become the bargaining unit without even holding an election. That in and of itself should tell everyone how strong they feel about their chances in a fair election.

I think this is your version of the paranoia we at RAH have of BB and friends. The IBT leadership is fully aware that there is going to be a card drive and is preparing their campaign.

 

[Flying Illini]

Are you guys implying there will be more furloughs? I thought Republic was hiring. I'm guessing the Midwest pilots will not be offered meaningful employment for years.

I doubt there will be any immediate furloughs but I also don't see too many recalls of the guys currently on furlough taking place. We are combining multiple pilot groups of which one of them aren't bringing any airplanes and another group is bringing 3 airplanes for only the next 6 months. As it stands, we will have too many pilots and not enough airplanes.

In the future I certainly expect to lose FFD contracts as they come up for renewal which would remove more flying at a faster rate than the branded side is adding flying.

 

[CitationLover]

Are you guys implying there will be more furloughs? I thought Republic was hiring. I'm guessing the Midwest pilots will not be offered meaningful employment for years.

Hahaha, you think Republic is meaningful employment. Hahaha.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

RJET pilots will most likely think a quick upgrade and shiny jets will happen.

F__k you punk

 

[GuppyWN]

OK.... just because I'm a WN guy doesn't mean I'm stirring the pot.

My buds at Frontier seem to think since the 318's are going away that the rest of the fleet may follow and be replaced by E-Jets for fleet commonality.

Gup

 

[Cardinal]

OK.... just because I'm a WN guy doesn't mean I'm stirring the pot.

My buds at Frontier seem to think since the 318's are going away that the rest of the fleet may follow and be replaced by E-Jets for fleet commonality.

Gup

Find a buddy with a clue. We're swapping 318s for 320s better than 1 for 1. We lose 4 A318s this fall, replaced with a string of 6 newbuild A320s, one a month starting in January. How the heck does a 99 seat E190, even a notional 110 seat E195 replace a 162 seat sub-7-cent CASM aircraft with 6 hour range? It doesn't.

 

[Cardinal]

I'm guessing the Midwest pilots will not be offered meaningful employment for years.

Hahaha, you think Republic is meaningful employment. Hahaha.

Reading is fundamental. The employment RAH has offered Midwest guys (newhire Republic FO pay) is a mockery. Thus the "meaningful employment" hockeypilot refers to correctly is indeed in the future.

 

[GuppyWN]

Find a buddy with a clue. We're swapping 318s for 320s better than 1 for 1. We lose 4 A318s this fall, replaced with a string of 6 newbuild A320s, one a month starting in January. How the heck does a 99 seat E190, even a notional 110 seat E195 replace a 162 seat sub-7-cent CASM aircraft with 6 hour range? It doesn't.

The thought was the 318's are leaving NOW. The 320's aren't going to arrive until after the SLI and any associated discource that may arise.

Gup

 

[The Drizzle]

It's all moot. After this mornings news and with BB at our helm, we will all lose the war.

 

[Flying Illini]

It's all moot. After this mornings news and with BB at our helm, we will all lose the war.

I think we were all screwed the day that Sean Menke left. He had the know-how to run a real airline, BB does not and now is not the time to experiment.

I hope I can get hired elsewhere without any 121 PIC...

 

[kwick]

OK.... just because I'm a WN guy doesn't mean I'm stirring the pot.

My buds at Frontier seem to think since the 318's are going away that the rest of the fleet may follow and be replaced by E-Jets for fleet commonality.

Gup

I heard SW is getting 717s.

Not trying to stir the pot.

 

[StaySeated]

The thought was the 318's are leaving NOW. The 320's aren't going to arrive until after the SLI and any associated discource that may arise.

Gup

Four of the 318's are leaving now, and we have already taken delivery of 3 previously unplanned 320's. The six 320's arriving next year will more than likely be swaps of the remaining 4 318's.

There is also the mexicana 320's on the table. More growth/318 and possible 319 replacements.

The SLI will be announced publicly in mid November. The Single Carrier and Representation drive will begin in earnest, probably on the same day the MSL is announced.

Even if the Single carrier and representation drive occur at the fastest speed in history, all of F9's future airbus deliveries (8 320's not including Mexicana) will be on property prior to any shuffling of the chairs as a result of the SLI.

Drizzle said, "It's all moot. After this mornings news and with BB at our helm, we will all lose the war."

Today's announcement basically guarantees further LCC consolidation sooner rather than later.

I wouldn't be surprised if the RAH/F9/YX/L4 integration ended and another round of merger mania started immediately thereafter.

This could have a huge impact on the representation drive.

Not only should all RAH pilots (that is ALL of us) look at the existing CBA's as a reference for which way to vote, but we also we get an idea on each parties effectiveness at SLI.

If FAPA has a superior CBA, and they experience the least amount of damage as a result of the SLI, can anyone think of a reason NOT to vote independent?

 

[dude100]

Lynx Q400's

BB got rid of his prize planes, the Dash 8 400's and any Aspen flights after April of next year. Republic is screwed after they could be scoped out of United flying later. I'm sure they may hang around with US Air since they really don't care who flys for them. It seems BB really doesn't care to run an airline.

 

[The Drizzle]

If FAPA has a superior CBA, and they experience the least amount of damage as a result of the SLI, can anyone think of a reason NOT to vote independent?

It will keep coming back to LOA 39. Now before you harp on us about how we don't understandwhat it means, just realize that many of us have sat down and read both the LOA and the current F9 contract, how the two interact and intersect. Understand that I went back and read and studied both at face value and I'd have to agree with your take on it in the other thread. It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys. I then went back and read it through the lens of almost 6 years under the BB/WH wunder-team and saw what a disaster it could be. With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us. I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us.

I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike.

Make no mistake, the current pilots of the RAH seniority list have had enough of the treatment we've received. Both from outside and within. I can only hope that the incoming pilots with the SLI will be as willing to shut this place down as we are getting now. I hope that there won't be a Mainline-RJ mentality disconnect, we have an excellent opportunity here and I'd like for egos to not ruin it for everybody.

That was a bit of thread drift on my part. We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality, but in a "It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team" mentality. I won't hold out hope, though.

 

[Cardinal]

"It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team"

Huzzah!

 

[StaySeated]

It will keep coming back to LOA 39. Now before you harp on us about how we don't understandwhat it means, just realize that many of us have sat down and read both the LOA and the current F9 contract, how the two interact and intersect. Understand that I went back and read and studied both at face value and I'd have to agree with your take on it in the other thread. It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys. I then went back and read it through the lens of almost 6 years under the BB/WH wunder-team and saw what a disaster it could be. With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us. I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us.

I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike.

Make no mistake, the current pilots of the RAH seniority list have had enough of the treatment we've received. Both from outside and within. I can only hope that the incoming pilots with the SLI will be as willing to shut this place down as we are getting now. I hope that there won't be a Mainline-RJ mentality disconnect, we have an excellent opportunity here and I'd like for egos to not ruin it for everybody.

That was a bit of thread drift on my part. We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality, but in a "It's time to protect our people and get the most out of an aggressive management team" mentality. I won't hold out hope, though.

I am not sure where to begin with a response.

"With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us."

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I assume Force Majeure, again. Force Majeure only effects FAPA staffing. That is it. F-A-P-A S-T-A-F-F-I-N-G. That is it. Could they have a "field day" with maintaining a minimum number of FAPA pilots? They either keep a minimum number of FAPA pilots or they don't. End of field day, and end of story.

"It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys."

It wasn't neutral. It was an improvement in Scope and Pay.

"I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us."

Have they reached out to FAPA? Any phone calls fostering teamwork and collaboration? Any strategic meeting between IBT and FAPA at all? By "ALL" do you mean ALL or just the current IBT members?

This next paragraph is critical for all current IBT members to understand:

"I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

It doesn't matter what your "local" is called, you are still IBT. Period.
357 vs 747, Glock vs Airbus, doesn't matter. You are still IBT.

Who collects the dues? IBT

Who represents the pilots in a representation dispute? Baptiste and Wilder, IBT Counsel.

Who hires outside consultants? Your local or national? National IBT.

Who conducts your PR and communications? IBT Local 1224

That brings up another question. What is the difference between Local 1224, local 357, and local 747? (Other than mailing address.)

What in the world is "lobbying ability" and why do you want your dues dollars to "lobby" for something that you may or may not support?

"I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

Sympathy strikes?!?

Before I expand on that concept we should talk about the fact that the IBT has been doing nothing for years when they should have been negotiating an amended CBA. You are YEARS away from mediation, cooling off, and release. You are never going to have an opportunity to strike, and claiming that as a reason to remain IBT is senseless.

But, since you brought up sympathy strikes and amerijet, I feel compelled to comment. The sympathy strikers were teamster members that refused to load frieght/cargo. Amerijet is a cargo carrier. That may or may not have had an impact at amerijet, but it absolutely will not have an impact here. Unless the gate agents rapidly become teamsters and then refuse to open the jetbridge door in an effort to block our passengers, I don't think a sympathy strike has anything to do with our futures.

"We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality"

This isn't a d1ck measuring contest. We are about to participate in a representation election. What better way to judge the effectiveness of each bargaining unit than the CBA's that they have negotiated?

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.

 

[Flying Illini]

I guess that settles it, FAPA is the bestest union out there!! <rolleyes>

The new local 357 has been in office since the first of september. They are already miles ahead of what 747/1224 provided us with. Gene Sowell left us beyond "high and dry."

I'm doubting the IBT is the way to go, I know ALPA is NOT the way to go. FAPA? no. RAPA? Maybe. Personally, I'm really looking forward to the representation drives!

 

[The Drizzle]

I am not sure where to begin with a response.

"With no real definition of economic hardship or fuel prices, they will have a field day with all of us."

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I assume Force Majeure, again. Force Majeure only effects FAPA staffing. That is it. F-A-P-A S-T-A-F-F-I-N-G. That is it. Could they have a "field day" with maintaining a minimum number of FAPA pilots? They either keep a minimum number of FAPA pilots or they don't. End of field day, and end of story.

"It was the best you could do and in that time it would seem a neutral or maybe even a small victory for you guys."

It wasn't neutral. It was an improvement in Scope and Pay.

"I don't know what the solution will be, and hopefully our current leadership heads will get together under amiable circumstances and hash out what will indeed be better for ALL of us."

Have they reached out to FAPA? Any phone calls fostering teamwork and collaboration? Any strategic meeting between IBT and FAPA at all? By "ALL" do you mean ALL or just the current IBT members?

This next paragraph is critical for all current IBT members to understand:

"I know how hated the IBT is in many places, but the 357 is NOT the 747. I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

It doesn't matter what your "local" is called, you are still IBT. Period.
357 vs 747, Glock vs Airbus, doesn't matter. You are still IBT.

Who collects the dues? IBT

Who represents the pilots in a representation dispute? Baptiste and Wilder, IBT Counsel.

Who hires outside consultants? Your local or national? National IBT.

Who conducts your PR and communications? IBT Local 1224

That brings up another question. What is the difference between Local 1224, local 357, and local 747? (Other than mailing address.)

What in the world is "lobbying ability" and why do you want your dues dollars to "lobby" for something that you may or may not support?

"I'm currently leaning towards the IBT 357 right now because of lobbying visibility and the ability to call in sympathy strikes of other IBT locals like what happened during the AmeriJet strike. "

Sympathy strikes?!?

Before I expand on that concept we should talk about the fact that the IBT has been doing nothing for years when they should have been negotiating an amended CBA. You are YEARS away from mediation, cooling off, and release. You are never going to have an opportunity to strike, and claiming that as a reason to remain IBT is senseless.

But, since you brought up sympathy strikes and amerijet, I feel compelled to comment. The sympathy strikers were teamster members that refused to load frieght/cargo. Amerijet is a cargo carrier. That may or may not have had an impact at amerijet, but it absolutely will not have an impact here. Unless the gate agents rapidly become teamsters and then refuse to open the jetbridge door in an effort to block our passengers, I don't think a sympathy strike has anything to do with our futures.

"We need everybody to come together not in a "MY CBA IS BETTER THAN YOURS" mentality"

This isn't a d1ck measuring contest. We are about to participate in a representation election. What better way to judge the effectiveness of each bargaining unit than the CBA's that they have negotiated?

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.

I had a whole long winded response but I deleted it because it all boils down to one request:

Convince me that the minority with experience will represent the majority without, equally.

 

[The Drizzle]

Also, learn to use the quote function. Makes it easier on all of our eyes.

 

[The Drizzle]

When I say, "Convince me" I mean FAPA, not you.

 

[Ur Dad]

RAH management better change it's tune or else we r ********************ed. There is no way with the current mood of the employees of all of our airlines would we be able to even come close to hanging with the new SWA.

 

[SkywayFO]

How many CBA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many LOA's has the "new" local negotiated?

How many arbitrations has the "new" local participated in?

Mediations?

SLI negotiations?

BK negotiations?

How much do you pay the IBT in dues?

Do you feel that you are getting your money's worth?

What are your peers being paid to fly similar aircraft?

The unfortunate answers to most if not all of the above questions are not positives for the "new" local.

The fall back response from the "new local" will be "Local 1224" and/or the "Airline Division" have years of experience.

That just leads me back to my initial point. Your "new" local is claiming that they are new and great and will make changes, but the fact of the matter is the "locals" are meaningless. Everything must go through the Airline Division of the IBT, making everything just "the IBT".

Now is not the time to have anyone "new" leading a 3000 pilot workforce.

Experience trumps ambition every time.[/QUOTE]

To all the above that speak of how many times has 357 done X? Answer a lot more than FAPA, not here at 357 but the top leadership has been around the block a few times. Have you ever really researched 1224 and seen the contract at ABX? Even the cuts after BK and overseas owenership there contract is better then anything FAPA can say they have done. We are actually pretty much independent we don't have to go to the airline division for permission on much of anything, we do have them for support if and when we need them. As for who represents us, that depends on our needs for the situation. We do not use IBT council, we have just hired our own and use some others when the need come about. 357 is basically an independent union with the backing of the IBT. And to cover the question about dues, less the than you pay at FAPA. I wish all of the changes were as easy as a snap of the fingers, they are not. But the top leadership here at 357 is not as new as you make them out to be. I would verture to guess they have been union reps longer and have more experience then any of the FAPA folks. Just a guess though.

 

[Megalops]

He was asking how much of your dues go to national, not how much you pay. How much goes to National IBT? You know to protect truckers and stevedores rights, do you even know? Honest question. Comparing your contract and ABX you just lost me there, is yours as good as theirs? Or ours? Maybe your trying to say IT WILL BE as good as ABX, IBT just needs some sweeeet time. Hard to stay on the task at hand when you have to take a time out for embezzlers. Wait what section addresses retirement in the IBT contract I can't find it? Trip rig? Duty rig?, swap? Drop? Add? Monthly open time? Daily open time?