Perspectives on an AirTran and SWA merger

[Kharma Police]

" Wow!! You guys spend alot of time discussing something that is not going to happen!! "

Pretty Effin' SAD....Ain't it?


YKMKR

What's sad?!? That we wrote it or that you bothered to read it?

 

[AlbieF15]

Would that be a Monkeril or a Gerkey? A gerbil/monkey cross would be a wierd pet. Imagine a monkey going round and round all day on a treadmill, throwing its poo at you... Well...now that I think about it...that sounds a lot like these boards!

 

[Whine Lover]

Albie....Now that's the spirit!

These are the things we must consider...."LOL", as the kids say.

K.P. ........"What's sad?!? That we wrote it or that you bothered to read it?"

BOTH. To answer your question. What kind of living Hell do we exist in here?



YKMKR

 

[ASADFW7]

I work for SWA and do not believe a staple is realistic with any company flying the same size aircraft. Even if their pay is less. I do not believe in downgrades from seat position unless a seat is no longer available. The win for SWA is market share and access with a built in network to markets that SWA is not presently in.

The thought that SWA is a superior job is mainly held by those who want to work at SWA, and those who are presently working here. Otherwise the pay is just better comparatively. The pay is better at UPS as well, but my preference is to fly passengers not boxes.

If a merger/acquisition occurred SWA pilots have to understand the bubble burst first for many with age 60, then the no growth/schedule cuts, codeshare agreements, and the possibility of M & A. Any company that SWA looks at in an M & A scenario will be subject to the blind frustrations at the other side by a percentage of SWA pilots. The six year upgrade is bleeping gone. Yes our pay is higher now but for how long?

If we merged with Airtran I welcome it, figure out the fences and single list and get life back to normal with the extended new members of the SWA family. The whole Morris B/S is long gone. It is 2010 and acting like idiots and elitists is long gone.

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on:

Several of you are friends, but knock it off with the language, or I'll have to start giving people time-outs... (Geez, I sound like I'm talking to my 4 year old).

Chase, welcome back! Long time no hear from, like... years?

For those who are newly joining us on FlightInfo (3 years or less), Chase and Albie have been here for going on a decade. There's more about them to tell, these gentlemen have been class acts for a LONG time on here, but I'll let you go do some research if you're interested.

On that note, ladies and gentlemen... watch it. Not going to let this thread degenerate into a bunch of mud slinging. They're old hands, so they know what to ignore, but civil discussion is GOING to ensue or I'll just keep deleting your responses that violate the ToS and send you home to think about it for a few days.

/mod

 

[dicko]

You would really be shiocked to find out who you are really chatting with.

Indeed. We are all "shiocked" .... Are you Finnish

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat off:

Chase! Hola amigo! Albie, too, wow... there's some old memories from half a decade ago.

To give you a brief update on where AirTran is? If SWA had come along and made an offer a year or more ago, you'd like have found a willing pilot group. Now? Well, there's a LOT of history.

Flashback 10 years ago: Very few people are interested in AAI with everything that happened after the Everglades, poor pay (and I mean REALLY bad), etc. It was a place you landed when you had pretty much nowhere else to go. We all know that.

Flash forward a few years, and suddenly, it's a great place to be. New contract with "somewhat" decent pay, but REALLY fast upgrades, good Quality of Life, management who pretty much left people alone, and a fun place to be. A lot of people enjoyed that as new-hires for the mid-2000's until... someone filed a grievance on reserve pay... Twome-Kasher. The company not only lost the arbitration, but lost it in a way that increased reserve costs by upwards of 30-35% crediting reserves between 80-120 hours of pay for 40-70 hours of flying. Not kidding.

Things became increasingly hostile from that point forward. 3 years ago, after QoL pretty much DIED at AirTran, you'd again have found a large percentage of the population squarely in the "staple me" corner. I was one of them. However, when that didn't happen, the pilots at AirTran buckled down and started the hard work, killing two concessionary T.A.'s, voting in ALPA, and putting together one heck of a proposal while increasing solidarity to all-time highs.

It's that proposal that has AirTran pilots back in a "I might just be better off at AirTran" frame of mind. Trip and duty rigs are part of a strong Scheduling section, including transparency, a completely revamped reserve system, and much, much more in addition to the pay. ALPA's best people have helped us craft those sections, learning from what has and hasn't worked at other carriers and being mindful of AirTran's cash position and projected earnings.

That's why you'd likely get the majority of AirTran pilots insistent on some kind of ratio that protects their current place in relative bidding and Quality of Life possibilities moving forward, pay increase at SWA notwithstanding. Hope that explains a little why AAI pilots might be reluctant to expect a staple (not even worth mentioning) or Date of Hire (with 80% of our CA's junior to your higher-seniority F/O's).

We're dragging AAI management kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and AirTran will likely be a great place to be moving forward.

All that said, I seriously doubt it will happen. I'm betting AirTran buys someone else after negotiations are done and credit can be obtained with no labor risk in the portfolio for some time to come... Just my .02 cents.

Good hearing from you!

 

[dicko]

Lear,

Well said. You opened our "eyes wide shut" during the TA2 debacle and you paid a very high price. We all hope to see you back soon.

Regarding the overall scope of this discussion;

If you transplanted the entire pilot group from SWA into AirTran airplanes there would be no difference to AirTrans success as a company. If you transplanted the AirTran pilot group to SWA the same would be true. They are both a friendly and professional pilot workforce.

If you transplanted SWA management to AirTran you would see a fundamental difference in profit, stock price and employee morale.

I understand this isn't practical however it does show where the problem lies .... A little anyway.

Kharma Police: I voted yes on the strike vote. Yes on ALPA and yes on Radiohead. We are on the same page.

Cheers.

 

[Kharma Police]

Lear,

Well said. You opened our "eyes wide shut" during the TA2 debacle and you paid a very high price. We all hope to see you back soon.

Regarding the overall scope of this discussion;

If you transplanted the entire pilot group from SWA into AirTran airplanes there would be no difference to AirTrans success as a company. If you transplanted the AirTran pilot group to SWA the same would be true. They are both a friendly and professional pilot workforce.

If you transplanted SWA management to AirTran you would see a fundamental difference in profit, stock price and employee morale.

I understand this isn't practical however it does show where the problem lies .... A little anyway.

Kharma Police: I voted yes on the strike vote. Yes on ALPA and yes on Radiohead. We are on the same page.

Cheers.

Agreed, very well put.

 

[chase]

Lear,

Thanks but you must have meant the gentleman comment toward Albie, not me:beer: I must owe you some money since I only get talked about like that when I'm in debt to someone.

Your assessment of the changing of the tone, tenor and atmosphere at AAI in the last few years is the intangible that makes the deal, if it was to be offered, a tougher sell. I have followed the ebb and flow on this forum and other places and can understand clearly what you have laid out is a realistic assessment.

ASADFW summed it up quite well as to the mindset that I would hope 80% of our members would support if a merger became inevitable. Being bitter or upset about the cards dealt is counterproductive. We have many pilots, including myself who have only tasted SWA but we have a lot of other ones who have seen the SWA mindset change (upgrades, commuting for longer periods of time, QOL not improving because of lack of growth) but I can say quite frankly most are still very thankful still when the entire picture is included...furloughs at other airlines, tough economic times for other friends and family members, management bonuses when employee groups are suffering.

We have asked our junior folks (both FOs and jr CAs) to alter their expectations a lot and a merger with unknown changes adds to a longer list of factors that may or may not benefit them anytime soon.

I'm neither optimistic or doubtful if a merger will occur with AAI in the future but talking about it isn't a waste of time because consolidation is going to be occurring for years to come; picking the right "mate" is important as they will be paired together for the rest of time, whether it is AAI or someone else.

The hindsight of the F9 FOs and some jr CAs from speaking to some of them is something they will have to live with for a long time and the frustrating part according to those who I spoke with was their views were not considered at the time...again that is all history but I hope SWAPA learned some things from that episode.

I hope AAI pilots and SWA pilots are allowed to weigh in with their thoughts on the matter so an arbitrator doesn't have to force a marriage that leaves scars that can't be overlooked later.

Glad to be back...preparing to move from DFW toward SAT and having a little more time on my hands these days but always enjoy lurking and posting when I can. Thanks for moderating...I understand the challenges it presents but keep cracking the whip when needed. Always good to hear from Albie also...will look him up on the new Panama City overnights come late May.

 

[Whataburger]

SWA, the company, will not put the labor of SWA or the employee groups they merge with in a situation in which one entity will be pissed off. Either side. Period. If something does happen, both sides will end up happy. ie NWA DAL.

I think the Frontier deal was an effort to get Republic to pay the highest price possible.

Plus, a Check Airman on my last trip says that the AirTran deal will happen.

 

[Benhuntn]

Here is one con and I think it is a big one. SWA cannot make money paying our scale to AAI pilots flying their routes. So there would be a large change in routes and the resulting lose of jobs.

 

[dicko]

Here is one con and I think it is a big one. SWA cannot make money paying our scale to AAI pilots flying their routes. So there would be a large change in routes and the resulting lose of jobs.

Interesting. There has been a great deal of very thorough research recently into exactly what RASM vs CASM is possible for AAI.

Do you have some facts to add ?

 

[scoreboardII]

The whole Morris B/S is long gone.

I think this is because you are ignoring the 2x,xxx numbers who wear the black ties in Phoenix, all "X" Morris...

It continues, you just don't see it...

And if there is a merger, there will be a huge layoff, as SWA could fly all the routes with bodies and jets on hand.

 

[Lear70]

Which is why our MEC at AAI ALPA wouldn't sign off on it without a serious "no furlough" clause for probably a ten year duration. And certainly reason not to accept a staple.

Furlough fodder comes to mind.

It might not be pretty, some hope it will happen, some don't, but none of us can control any of it one way or another. Just do your job, keep your reps on target with what you expect of them, have a good time at work, then go home to your families.

:beer:

 

[jimcav]

If this merger were to go down, where would that leave Jake "The Bachelor"? You know, the guy who loves to fly his "big jet"?

 

[birdman1]

Moderator hat off:

Chase! Hola amigo! Albie, too, wow... there's some old memories from half a decade ago.

To give you a brief update on where AirTran is? If SWA had come along and made an offer a year or more ago, you'd like have found a willing pilot group. Now? Well, there's a LOT of history.

Flashback 10 years ago: Very few people are interested in AAI with everything that happened after the Everglades, poor pay (and I mean REALLY bad), etc. It was a place you landed when you had pretty much nowhere else to go. We all know that.

Flash forward a few years, and suddenly, it's a great place to be. New contract with "somewhat" decent pay, but REALLY fast upgrades, good Quality of Life, management who pretty much left people alone, and a fun place to be. A lot of people enjoyed that as new-hires for the mid-2000's until... someone filed a grievance on reserve pay... Twome-Kasher. The company not only lost the arbitration, but lost it in a way that increased reserve costs by upwards of 30-35% crediting reserves between 80-120 hours of pay for 40-70 hours of flying. Not kidding.

Things became increasingly hostile from that point forward. 3 years ago, after QoL pretty much DIED at AirTran, you'd again have found a large percentage of the population squarely in the "staple me" corner. I was one of them. However, when that didn't happen, the pilots at AirTran buckled down and started the hard work, killing two concessionary T.A.'s, voting in ALPA, and putting together one heck of a proposal while increasing solidarity to all-time highs.

It's that proposal that has AirTran pilots back in a "I might just be better off at AirTran" frame of mind. Trip and duty rigs are part of a strong Scheduling section, including transparency, a completely revamped reserve system, and much, much more in addition to the pay. ALPA's best people have helped us craft those sections, learning from what has and hasn't worked at other carriers and being mindful of AirTran's cash position and projected earnings.

That's why you'd likely get the majority of AirTran pilots insistent on some kind of ratio that protects their current place in relative bidding and Quality of Life possibilities moving forward, pay increase at SWA notwithstanding. Hope that explains a little why AAI pilots might be reluctant to expect a staple (not even worth mentioning) or Date of Hire (with 80% of our CA's junior to your higher-seniority F/O's).

We're dragging AAI management kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and AirTran will likely be a great place to be moving forward.

All that said, I seriously doubt it will happen. I'm betting AirTran buys someone else after negotiations are done and credit can be obtained with no labor risk in the portfolio for some time to come... Just my .02 cents.

Good hearing from you!

A SWA/AT merger will happen.

 

[bravodude]

LOL!, guess what Junior, you are a even bigger regional that doesn't leave the CONUS. You guys still have PFT just like the regionals used to have too! Seriously, what's the most inter-Texas turns you've done in a day?!?

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years put your diapers back on and go play in someone elses sandbox.

 

[scarlet]

Jake flies for ASA and SWA is what 300 pilots over staffed. Going to be awhile.

 

[400ADude]

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years put your diapers back on and go play in someone elses sandbox.

Very well put Bravodude.