Perspectives on an AirTran and SWA merger

[Kharma Police]

" Wow!! You guys spend alot of time discussing something that is not going to happen!! "

Pretty Effin' SAD....Ain't it?


YKMKR

What's sad?!? That we wrote it or that you bothered to read it?

 

[AlbieF15]

Would that be a Monkeril or a Gerkey? A gerbil/monkey cross would be a wierd pet. Imagine a monkey going round and round all day on a treadmill, throwing its poo at you... Well...now that I think about it...that sounds a lot like these boards!

 

[Whine Lover]

Albie....Now that's the spirit!

These are the things we must consider...."LOL", as the kids say.

K.P. ........"What's sad?!? That we wrote it or that you bothered to read it?"

BOTH. To answer your question. What kind of living Hell do we exist in here?



YKMKR

 

[ASADFW7]

I work for SWA and do not believe a staple is realistic with any company flying the same size aircraft. Even if their pay is less. I do not believe in downgrades from seat position unless a seat is no longer available. The win for SWA is market share and access with a built in network to markets that SWA is not presently in.

The thought that SWA is a superior job is mainly held by those who want to work at SWA, and those who are presently working here. Otherwise the pay is just better comparatively. The pay is better at UPS as well, but my preference is to fly passengers not boxes.

If a merger/acquisition occurred SWA pilots have to understand the bubble burst first for many with age 60, then the no growth/schedule cuts, codeshare agreements, and the possibility of M & A. Any company that SWA looks at in an M & A scenario will be subject to the blind frustrations at the other side by a percentage of SWA pilots. The six year upgrade is bleeping gone. Yes our pay is higher now but for how long?

If we merged with Airtran I welcome it, figure out the fences and single list and get life back to normal with the extended new members of the SWA family. The whole Morris B/S is long gone. It is 2010 and acting like idiots and elitists is long gone.

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on:

Several of you are friends, but knock it off with the language, or I'll have to start giving people time-outs... (Geez, I sound like I'm talking to my 4 year old).

Chase, welcome back! Long time no hear from, like... years?

For those who are newly joining us on FlightInfo (3 years or less), Chase and Albie have been here for going on a decade. There's more about them to tell, these gentlemen have been class acts for a LONG time on here, but I'll let you go do some research if you're interested.

On that note, ladies and gentlemen... watch it. Not going to let this thread degenerate into a bunch of mud slinging. They're old hands, so they know what to ignore, but civil discussion is GOING to ensue or I'll just keep deleting your responses that violate the ToS and send you home to think about it for a few days.

/mod

 

[dicko]

You would really be shiocked to find out who you are really chatting with.

Indeed. We are all "shiocked" .... Are you Finnish

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat off:

Chase! Hola amigo! Albie, too, wow... there's some old memories from half a decade ago.

To give you a brief update on where AirTran is? If SWA had come along and made an offer a year or more ago, you'd like have found a willing pilot group. Now? Well, there's a LOT of history.

Flashback 10 years ago: Very few people are interested in AAI with everything that happened after the Everglades, poor pay (and I mean REALLY bad), etc. It was a place you landed when you had pretty much nowhere else to go. We all know that.

Flash forward a few years, and suddenly, it's a great place to be. New contract with "somewhat" decent pay, but REALLY fast upgrades, good Quality of Life, management who pretty much left people alone, and a fun place to be. A lot of people enjoyed that as new-hires for the mid-2000's until... someone filed a grievance on reserve pay... Twome-Kasher. The company not only lost the arbitration, but lost it in a way that increased reserve costs by upwards of 30-35% crediting reserves between 80-120 hours of pay for 40-70 hours of flying. Not kidding.

Things became increasingly hostile from that point forward. 3 years ago, after QoL pretty much DIED at AirTran, you'd again have found a large percentage of the population squarely in the "staple me" corner. I was one of them. However, when that didn't happen, the pilots at AirTran buckled down and started the hard work, killing two concessionary T.A.'s, voting in ALPA, and putting together one heck of a proposal while increasing solidarity to all-time highs.

It's that proposal that has AirTran pilots back in a "I might just be better off at AirTran" frame of mind. Trip and duty rigs are part of a strong Scheduling section, including transparency, a completely revamped reserve system, and much, much more in addition to the pay. ALPA's best people have helped us craft those sections, learning from what has and hasn't worked at other carriers and being mindful of AirTran's cash position and projected earnings.

That's why you'd likely get the majority of AirTran pilots insistent on some kind of ratio that protects their current place in relative bidding and Quality of Life possibilities moving forward, pay increase at SWA notwithstanding. Hope that explains a little why AAI pilots might be reluctant to expect a staple (not even worth mentioning) or Date of Hire (with 80% of our CA's junior to your higher-seniority F/O's).

We're dragging AAI management kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and AirTran will likely be a great place to be moving forward.

All that said, I seriously doubt it will happen. I'm betting AirTran buys someone else after negotiations are done and credit can be obtained with no labor risk in the portfolio for some time to come... Just my .02 cents.

Good hearing from you!

 

[dicko]

Lear,

Well said. You opened our "eyes wide shut" during the TA2 debacle and you paid a very high price. We all hope to see you back soon.

Regarding the overall scope of this discussion;

If you transplanted the entire pilot group from SWA into AirTran airplanes there would be no difference to AirTrans success as a company. If you transplanted the AirTran pilot group to SWA the same would be true. They are both a friendly and professional pilot workforce.

If you transplanted SWA management to AirTran you would see a fundamental difference in profit, stock price and employee morale.

I understand this isn't practical however it does show where the problem lies .... A little anyway.

Kharma Police: I voted yes on the strike vote. Yes on ALPA and yes on Radiohead. We are on the same page.

Cheers.

 

[Kharma Police]

Lear,

Well said. You opened our "eyes wide shut" during the TA2 debacle and you paid a very high price. We all hope to see you back soon.

Regarding the overall scope of this discussion;

If you transplanted the entire pilot group from SWA into AirTran airplanes there would be no difference to AirTrans success as a company. If you transplanted the AirTran pilot group to SWA the same would be true. They are both a friendly and professional pilot workforce.

If you transplanted SWA management to AirTran you would see a fundamental difference in profit, stock price and employee morale.

I understand this isn't practical however it does show where the problem lies .... A little anyway.

Kharma Police: I voted yes on the strike vote. Yes on ALPA and yes on Radiohead. We are on the same page.

Cheers.

Agreed, very well put.

 

[chase]

Lear,

Thanks but you must have meant the gentleman comment toward Albie, not me:beer: I must owe you some money since I only get talked about like that when I'm in debt to someone.

Your assessment of the changing of the tone, tenor and atmosphere at AAI in the last few years is the intangible that makes the deal, if it was to be offered, a tougher sell. I have followed the ebb and flow on this forum and other places and can understand clearly what you have laid out is a realistic assessment.

ASADFW summed it up quite well as to the mindset that I would hope 80% of our members would support if a merger became inevitable. Being bitter or upset about the cards dealt is counterproductive. We have many pilots, including myself who have only tasted SWA but we have a lot of other ones who have seen the SWA mindset change (upgrades, commuting for longer periods of time, QOL not improving because of lack of growth) but I can say quite frankly most are still very thankful still when the entire picture is included...furloughs at other airlines, tough economic times for other friends and family members, management bonuses when employee groups are suffering.

We have asked our junior folks (both FOs and jr CAs) to alter their expectations a lot and a merger with unknown changes adds to a longer list of factors that may or may not benefit them anytime soon.

I'm neither optimistic or doubtful if a merger will occur with AAI in the future but talking about it isn't a waste of time because consolidation is going to be occurring for years to come; picking the right "mate" is important as they will be paired together for the rest of time, whether it is AAI or someone else.

The hindsight of the F9 FOs and some jr CAs from speaking to some of them is something they will have to live with for a long time and the frustrating part according to those who I spoke with was their views were not considered at the time...again that is all history but I hope SWAPA learned some things from that episode.

I hope AAI pilots and SWA pilots are allowed to weigh in with their thoughts on the matter so an arbitrator doesn't have to force a marriage that leaves scars that can't be overlooked later.

Glad to be back...preparing to move from DFW toward SAT and having a little more time on my hands these days but always enjoy lurking and posting when I can. Thanks for moderating...I understand the challenges it presents but keep cracking the whip when needed. Always good to hear from Albie also...will look him up on the new Panama City overnights come late May.

 

[Whataburger]

SWA, the company, will not put the labor of SWA or the employee groups they merge with in a situation in which one entity will be pissed off. Either side. Period. If something does happen, both sides will end up happy. ie NWA DAL.

I think the Frontier deal was an effort to get Republic to pay the highest price possible.

Plus, a Check Airman on my last trip says that the AirTran deal will happen.

 

[Benhuntn]

Here is one con and I think it is a big one. SWA cannot make money paying our scale to AAI pilots flying their routes. So there would be a large change in routes and the resulting lose of jobs.

 

[dicko]

Here is one con and I think it is a big one. SWA cannot make money paying our scale to AAI pilots flying their routes. So there would be a large change in routes and the resulting lose of jobs.

Interesting. There has been a great deal of very thorough research recently into exactly what RASM vs CASM is possible for AAI.

Do you have some facts to add ?

 

[scoreboardII]

The whole Morris B/S is long gone.

I think this is because you are ignoring the 2x,xxx numbers who wear the black ties in Phoenix, all "X" Morris...

It continues, you just don't see it...

And if there is a merger, there will be a huge layoff, as SWA could fly all the routes with bodies and jets on hand.

 

[Lear70]

Which is why our MEC at AAI ALPA wouldn't sign off on it without a serious "no furlough" clause for probably a ten year duration. And certainly reason not to accept a staple.

Furlough fodder comes to mind.

It might not be pretty, some hope it will happen, some don't, but none of us can control any of it one way or another. Just do your job, keep your reps on target with what you expect of them, have a good time at work, then go home to your families.

:beer:

 

[jimcav]

If this merger were to go down, where would that leave Jake "The Bachelor"? You know, the guy who loves to fly his "big jet"?

 

[birdman1]

Moderator hat off:

Chase! Hola amigo! Albie, too, wow... there's some old memories from half a decade ago.

To give you a brief update on where AirTran is? If SWA had come along and made an offer a year or more ago, you'd like have found a willing pilot group. Now? Well, there's a LOT of history.

Flashback 10 years ago: Very few people are interested in AAI with everything that happened after the Everglades, poor pay (and I mean REALLY bad), etc. It was a place you landed when you had pretty much nowhere else to go. We all know that.

Flash forward a few years, and suddenly, it's a great place to be. New contract with "somewhat" decent pay, but REALLY fast upgrades, good Quality of Life, management who pretty much left people alone, and a fun place to be. A lot of people enjoyed that as new-hires for the mid-2000's until... someone filed a grievance on reserve pay... Twome-Kasher. The company not only lost the arbitration, but lost it in a way that increased reserve costs by upwards of 30-35% crediting reserves between 80-120 hours of pay for 40-70 hours of flying. Not kidding.

Things became increasingly hostile from that point forward. 3 years ago, after QoL pretty much DIED at AirTran, you'd again have found a large percentage of the population squarely in the "staple me" corner. I was one of them. However, when that didn't happen, the pilots at AirTran buckled down and started the hard work, killing two concessionary T.A.'s, voting in ALPA, and putting together one heck of a proposal while increasing solidarity to all-time highs.

It's that proposal that has AirTran pilots back in a "I might just be better off at AirTran" frame of mind. Trip and duty rigs are part of a strong Scheduling section, including transparency, a completely revamped reserve system, and much, much more in addition to the pay. ALPA's best people have helped us craft those sections, learning from what has and hasn't worked at other carriers and being mindful of AirTran's cash position and projected earnings.

That's why you'd likely get the majority of AirTran pilots insistent on some kind of ratio that protects their current place in relative bidding and Quality of Life possibilities moving forward, pay increase at SWA notwithstanding. Hope that explains a little why AAI pilots might be reluctant to expect a staple (not even worth mentioning) or Date of Hire (with 80% of our CA's junior to your higher-seniority F/O's).

We're dragging AAI management kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and AirTran will likely be a great place to be moving forward.

All that said, I seriously doubt it will happen. I'm betting AirTran buys someone else after negotiations are done and credit can be obtained with no labor risk in the portfolio for some time to come... Just my .02 cents.

Good hearing from you!

A SWA/AT merger will happen.

 

[bravodude]

LOL!, guess what Junior, you are a even bigger regional that doesn't leave the CONUS. You guys still have PFT just like the regionals used to have too! Seriously, what's the most inter-Texas turns you've done in a day?!?

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years put your diapers back on and go play in someone elses sandbox.

 

[scarlet]

Jake flies for ASA and SWA is what 300 pilots over staffed. Going to be awhile.

 

[400ADude]

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years put your diapers back on and go play in someone elses sandbox.

Very well put Bravodude.

 

[Ty Webb]

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years

.

Third year, and you're making more than the $200K some of our senior guys made last year on a 9 year-old contract?

If that's true . . . and you're spending your time trolling AirTran threads, you are one unhappy mofo. :laugh::erm::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Secret Squirrel]

.

Third year, and you're making more than the $200K some of our senior guys made last year on a 9 year-old contract?

If that's true . . . and you're spending your time trolling AirTran threads, you are one unhappy mofo. :laugh::erm::laugh::laugh::laugh:[/QUOTE

You would have to average something around 110 hours a month to get that kind of pay here. Working through vacations and picking up illegal "premium" time. I have flown with these guys. They are a real asset to our pilot group. I don't know if I would throw them out as what one needs to do to make $200,000 a year as a captain here at the tranny. I have also talked to senior FO's who have made more than $100,000 a year. You should hear how they sell their soul for that kind of money. How about we talk about my pay. I made $49,000 last year and I am not in my first year. (but granted I do not fly very much, average 75 hours a month and at least 18 days off). While I knew the pay when I started here, I can not get myself to put any part of our contract out there as an example of how good we have it. Especially because any good part of our contract the company does not honor anyway.

 

[Old Crow]

Airtran is a very strong company proving over and over that it can compete with the big dogs, including SWA. A merger may be required due to pricing power and market share as the majors continue to consolidate.
The long term benefit I see is primarily to SWA. AT is laying a firm foundation within the US and expanding into markets outside the boarders all the while managing a very low cost structure. The only reason AT pilots should consider a SWA job is due to morale and possibly salary. Both of those items will be fixed soon making AT a powerhouse that SWA will have to contend with. Airtran is a unique company in a sense that the employees will make it happen even with an absent leader.

My thoughts are that SWA would buy AT for growth and to buy down competition.
AT would sell to SWA only for a large cash out to investors and execs.

I doubt this is a merger we will see happen unless SWA forces it.
The more likely scenario is that AT will go it alone and continue to be successful as a carp, feeding on the scraps that the Majors continue to drop.

 

[Ty Webb]

You would have to average something around 110 hours a month to get that kind of pay here. Working through vacations and picking up illegal "premium" time. .

I don't make the news, I just report it.

Ty

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Bou oh boy PFT again. how much do you make old man? I make more then you will ever make at Valuejet and I have been here 3 years put your diapers back on and go play in someone elses sandbox.

What else can a small dick man brag about but his pay?
How many takeoff's and landings is that sporto?
I'd say that based on all that work you do, you're grossly under paid, you 3 year peon!
And btw, good thing you had to pony up that cash to buy your job at your regional, or you'd be sitting at home......"measuring up.":laugh:

 

[Cometman]

What else can a small dick man brag about but his pay?
How many takeoff's and landings is that sporto?
I'd say that based on all that work you do, you're grossly under paid, you 3 year peon!
And btw, good thing you had to pony up that cash to buy your job at your regional, or you'd be sitting at home......"measuring up.":laugh:

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that you think being at Airtran is a better deal than being with SWA. Is that correct?

 

[Cruncher]

Chase, as a mid seniority SWA FO, I and many of your brothers and sisters are adamantly against a merger with anyone! The pig through the python is tough enough to swallow (age 60, economy, ...), we don't need anymore crummy flip snaps to the Jimmy sack! During the F9 deal, many of our senior Captains were good to go with a merger (at least the guys I talked with after an adult beverage or two)! I got mine, got it. They were just being honest, and I appreciated those conversations. That's not to say we don't have our vocal "Save Our Johnson" senior guys. They are the ones being great stewards of the SWA culture. Strong growth after the Morris purchase more or less squashed most resentment, but we know they are still those around. I suppose you can't make everyone happy.

The slower growth of SWA now, would mean many years of flying with pissed off people, in both seats. We don't want that, nor do we need that.

Organic growth for SWA, albeit at a slower pace! Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean should be with SWA purchased airplanes with SWAPA crews at the helm (and SWA employees under the wing, at the gate, ....)! I know we can agree here.

I wish the Airtran guys the best, I hope they crack an out of the park home-run with their negotiations! I really do. It helps our industry as a whole. We all should want this.

We'll continue doing what we do best, Safely flying efficient airplanes around the system.

Thanks for the work you do for families of our fallen military heros!:beer:

PS with that all being said, I believe we have very little (if any influence) on a merger (I agree with what Whataburger said regarding GK's F9 bid).

 

[chase]

Chase, as a mid seniority SWA FO, I and many of your brothers and sisters are adamantly against a merger with anyone! The pig through the python is tough enough to swallow (age 60, economy, ...), we don't need anymore crummy flip snaps to the Jimmy sack! During the F9 deal, many of our senior Captains were good to go with a merger (at least the guys I talked with after an adult beverage or two)! I got mine, got it. They were just being honest, and I appreciated those conversations. That's not to say we don't have our vocal "Save Our Johnson" senior guys. They are the ones being great stewards of the SWA culture. Strong growth after the Morris purchase more or less squashed most resentment, but we know they are still those around. I suppose you can't make everyone happy.

The slower growth of SWA now, would mean many years of flying with pissed off people, in both seats. We don't want that, nor do we need that.

Organic growth for SWA, albeit at a slower pace! Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean should be with SWA purchased airplanes with SWAPA crews at the helm (and SWA employees under the wing, at the gate, ....)! I know we can agree here.

I wish the Airtran guys the best, I hope they crack an out of the park home-run with their negotiations! I really do. It helps our industry as a whole. We all should want this.

We'll continue doing what we do best, Safely flying efficient airplanes around the system.


PS with that all being said, I believe we have very little (if any influence) on a merger (I agree with what Whataburger said regarding GK's F9 bid).

Cruncher,

Well said. Your sentiment is very understandable and I think is mirrored by some of various seniorities at AAI also.

We, pilots of AAI and SWA, as you said will have very little to say about if this goes down. I would not have thought the DAL/NWA pilots would have melded together relatively quietly but they are to be applauded for handling it professionally and making the best of things.

I suspect that if a AAI/SWA merger was to occur our pilot groups will bend with the wind and handle it equally or even better but I think the sentiment is shared by many on both sides the preference would be to grow organically vs. through merger.

Thanks for the other words also...we get to talk about such mundane things because others are defending our freedoms or have paid the price for it.....everytime I speak with one of the families my compass gets a realignment about what's important. Cheers,

 

[bravodude]

What else can a small dick man brag about but his pay?
How many takeoff's and landings is that sporto?
I'd say that based on all that work you do, you're grossly under paid, you 3 year peon!
And btw, good thing you had to pony up that cash to buy your job at your regional, or you'd be sitting at home......"measuring up.":laugh:

I can brag about the fact the WE MADE MONEYand delta did not. I can brag about the fact that the pilots of SWA said no to domestic scope unlike you and your friends at Delta.

by the way your wife said something totaly opposite about my apandage last night.

 

[funnyman12]

I've been at Airtran over 3 years and I'm 30. History shows that I won't know where the better airline to be at is over the course of my career. It is all speculation. Currently SWA and AT are both doing well. In 10 years (i'm still only 40 at that time) who freakin knows. Many captains I fly with were very upset that American didn't hire them in the late 90's. I'm sure if American took over Airtran in 1999 they would have sent every Airtran pilot to the street claiming "career expectations" along with other things. Well these Airtran captains are lucky they didn't go to a legacy at the time. SWA could be the #1 airline in 10 years or be another struggling airline with high costs. Airtran is in the same boat, though obviously, AT THIS TIME, are a much stronger airline. Unless Airtran has high costs, is shrinking, and losing money dont tell me that my career expectations at Airtran would be much lower than SWA in 15 years. If I recall SWA pilots were paid up to 30% less than the legacies prior to 2001. I guess if United bought SWA in 1999 they should have stapled/furloughed SWA pilots due to obvious career expectations. End of rant.....SWA pilots please dont feel the need to pull a power play on us. If a merger happens I would expect Airtran pilots to be treated with respect and understanding.