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Why East Pilots are mad

  • Thread starter Thread starter MCDU
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Everyone in the industry is sorry that usair management took a good thing in the 80's and proceeded to screw it up so royally for the next 20 years. Everyone gets why the pilots are mad. What no one agrees with is trying to steal back lost careers from another pilot group.


No one is trying to steal anything. No one is asking or even suggesting that one of your young captains fly with one of our FO's. The NIC, undiluted with a reasonable fence as it is, would place some of you insulting whipper snappers in the left seat barking "gear up, grandpa!" to people who don't deserve that. You guys act like such holes on here and you wonder why there's resistance. Jesus....what unckle muckers.

TWA....that's mighty big of you to be willing to give the NIC a try. I'll bet there would be guys junior to you who were captains here when you got hired at TWA.

In any case, y'all have fun wearing out your keyboards trashing anyone with a different viewpoint. Maybe if you spend enough time on the Internet it will all go away.
 
No one is trying to steal anything.
Sorry but that's not true. Nicolau decided the new seniority list by mutual agreement. The East's failed attempt to get something better than the Nicolau list means the West would get something worse. That is stealing.
TWA....that's mighty big of you to be willing to give the NIC a try.
Oh come on, you've read what Marty MCDU has written. He deserves all the derision he gets.
I'll bet there would be guys junior to you who were captains here when you got hired at TWA.
So? My furlough job was at Trans States and in fact I did fly as captain to FOs who'd been my captain at TWA. Sad, but that's the harsh reality of this industry.

The current USAirways is a brand new airline formed from two previous ones. At the time of the merger the bottom active pilot at US Airways was a junior pilot no matter how many years longevity nor what seat he previously occupied. You can't be both senior AND junior, right? So why should a junior pilot at USAirways be put senior to a junior pilot at AWA? To see the answer to this question and more please re-read the Nicolau award.
 
Sorry but that's not true. Nicolau decided the . At the time of the merger the bottom active pilot at US Airways was a junior pilot no matter how many years longevity nor what seat he previously occupied. You can't be both senior AND junior, right? So why should a junior pilot at USAirways be put senior to a junior pilot at AWA? To see the answer to this question and more please re-read the Nicolau award.

C'mon T-way. Logic and irrefutable, Fact-based reality has no business being discussed with an East guy. It's their personal kryptonite. The can't handle it.
 
You know, my one year old daughter doesnt whine as much as the Easties

- Former AWA Dispatcher, fight the good fight!!!!

As a pilot working for another airline, I feel that way about the America West pilots. Every time, I jumpseat on America West, I have to hear their side of the story again. As someone who doesn't care, I want to say STFU, but I don't because I am grateful for a ride. When I ride on the East airplanes, they don't even bring it up and neither do I.
 
When I ride on the East airplanes, they don't even bring it up and neither do I.

Of course they don't--they know the rest of the industry lost all respect for them when they turned there back on binding arbitration. There aren't a lot of sympathetic ears out there to whine to. Does a Catholic priest bring up in sermon how much fun he has with your sons?
 
99+% of jumpseaters are going to say how it is going, if they care I do not know. They are not going to disagree strongly with a crew that is giving them a ride. Do you tell your host at dinner that it sucked? I do not think so. All this jumpseat talk or no talk is pure B.S. Just get your facts from your local PACER account before any side gets to manipulate it. The truth will set you free young grasshopper!
 
PHOENIX DOMICILE UPDATE


May 29, 2009​







The Federal Judicial System





The Appeals Process


The losing party in a verdict by a trial court in the federal judicial system normally is entitled to appeal the decision to a federal court of appeals. In a civil case, either side may appeal the decision. In the case of Addington, et al v USAPA, the trial court was the District Court of Arizona. This district court is located in the middle region of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, and the appeal would be reviewed by the 9th Circuit Court located in San Francisco, California.


The following are some fact only bullet points of the Federal appeals process.
A litigant who files an appeal is known as an "appellant."
In this appeals case, the appellant will be USAPA.

In the trial court, USAPA is known as defendant.

A litigant defending against the appeal is known as the "appellee."
In this appeals case, the appellee will be Addington, et al.

In the trial court, Addington, et al is known as Plaintiff.

Typically, the first step is to file a notice of appeal in the district (trial) court where the case was decided.
Normally, the appellant must file an appeal within 30 days of issuance of the final court order1 in the case.
The district court informs the court of appeals and other parties involved.
In a civil appeal, the district court may require appellant to file a surety bond (Fed. R. App. P.7).
This bond or other tangible security may be necessary to guarantee payment of costs on appeal.


A three judge panel from the appeals court works together to make a decision based on the record of the case established by the trial court.
Judges are assigned to panels randomly.
The panel can include judges from a variety of sources including:
A senior circuit or district judge.
The district judge can be from a district court within the particular circuit, and/or
A visiting circuit or district judge from another circuit.

It is important to note that the appellate court "does NOT receive additional evidence" or hear witnesses.
Factual findings of the trial court may also be reviewed by the court of appeals.
However, overturning a lower court's decision based on factual grounds occurs only if the findings were "clearly erroneous."

The appellant has the burden to prove that the trial court made a substantial legal error that affected the decision in the case.
Legal arguments are offered to the panel by the appellant in a written document called a "brief."
Through the brief, the appellant tries to convince the judges of an error in the trial court and petition to have this decision reversed or remanded back for a new trial in the district (trial) court.

The appellee files a reply brief to demonstrate that the trial court gained the correct outcome.
If an error was committed by the trial court, the appellee brief will explain why the error was not significant enough to affect the outcome of the case.

The appeals court can make a decision based on written briefs only. However, many times, the court will hear oral arguments.
The appeals court generally requests oral argument in slightly more than 50 percent of appeal cases.
During oral argument, a structured discussion of the disputed legal principles occurs between the appellate attorneys and the judges.
The appellant and appellee are typically given 15 minutes to present oral arguments to the court.
In certain cases, the oral arguments will be heard en banc which means by a larger group of judges than the original 3. Most times, en banc arguments will be heard by all2 the judges of the particular circuit.
As of 2009, there are 29 authorized judgeships to the 9th Circuit.
As a matter of course, it is generally rare to have en banc review in any of the 12 circuits.

Oral arguments are open to the public.
The 2nd and 9th Circuit will review requests to allow for electronic and photographic coverage of oral arguments.
The 7th, 8th, and 9th Circuits make available Internet digital recordings of oral arguments.

The court of appeals decision is normally the final ruling in a case although there are exceptions.
The decision is normally accompanied by an opinion explaining the courts rationale.
A decision may be reached by a 3-0 or 2-1 vote.
A decision will take into account and apply any relevant precedents and similar cases already decided by that court, or by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The court of appeals can send the case back to the trial court for additional proceedings.
Recent history of the 9th Circuit provides approximately a 5-10 percent chance of overturning a decision originally made by the trial court.

A party in the case, either the appellant or appellee, can request the Supreme Court to hear the case.
Party requesting Supreme Court review is required to file Writ of Certiorari (pronounced sƏr-shee-Ə-rair-ee) or "Cert" for short.
Certs narrow or limit the scope of Supreme Court appeal jurisdiction.
The Supreme Court "will agree to hear a case only when it involves an unusually important legal principle, or when two or more federal appellate courts have interpreted a law differently."
Only 1-2 percent of Certs are granted annually by the Supreme Court.

Based on data from the 2007 Annual Report of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, the total median time from filing an appeal to final disposition in appellate court was 18.6 months.
2006 statistics were only slightly better at 15.5 months
2008 court statistics have yet to be released.
Compared to the other circuit courts, the appeals process of the Ninth Circuit takes 20-25 percent longer due to the higher case load.
Once an appeal case is fully briefed, Ninth Circuit judges decided cases fairly rapidly. In 2007, final disposition of the appeals court occurred in .2 months for a case submitted on briefs and 1.2 months for a case in which oral arguments were heard.

Notes:

1 It appears that in this particular case, the 30 day requirement will be waived due to the different time lines of injunctive relief (scheduled order delivered in late-June 2009) and a jury trial for damages (not officially scheduled; Possibly late August 2009). Plaintiffs – Appellees have already filled motion with no objection in district court.
2 Unique to the 9th Circuit Court, because of its larger size relative to other circuits, a "limited en banc" review would be called of a randomly selected 15 judge panel versus the full court.

Sources of Fact Information:

Understanding the Federal Courts, http://www.uscourts.gov/understand03/content_1_0.html

The 2007 Annual Report of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/publicat...Report2007.pdf

United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/rules/FRAP/Rules_TOC.htm
__________________
 
Where do you work again?

Good question!
Some of MCdoosh's greatest hits:


Marty saying he doesn’t work for US Air.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848465#post848465

Marty saying he has nothing to do with this merger

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848322#post848322

Marty claiming to be a UAL pilot.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1224345#post1224345

So, where do you work doosh?
Or is this just more hot air from you Us Air east lover?
You better go out and supplement that Gulfstream pay McDoosh, your man may soon be out of a job!:laugh:
 
Last edited:
From USAPAWATCH.COM

The Charlotte reps never cease to amaze us with their ability to create divisiveness. With support for their crusade waning, it is clear that they are resorting to desperate measures to maintain absolute power.

“It is the recommendation of your domicile representatives that, if confronted in any airport, immediately call 911 from your cell phone and report the confrontation to local authorities.” – CLT Domicile Update 5/28/09

Capt. ‘General’ Day’s latest call to arms tasks east pilots to call 911 whenever they encounter west pilots. Imagine your surprise when you say ‘hello’ to your fellow aviator at the airport Starbucks and instead of offering a cordial reply the police are summoned. You may scoff at this scenario, but this is exactly what General Day is instructing his members to do.

Thankfully, most US Airways pilots have had enough of the divisiveness perpetuated by the Cleary and General Day types. If losing a major DFR case wasn’t enough, they now believe that the west will be pummeled into submission by the employ of scare tactics and threats of retaliation.

To be sure, there have been unprofessional encounters initiated by pilots from both sides. If General Day were a real union representative, he would encourage his members to contact their professional standards representative to resolve the issue. Before your next trip print out their contact information and carry it with you. It can be found on the Members Only Section of the USAPA website. Just click on ‘yellow pages’ on the left hand column. There are nine volunteers listed for your convenience.

It’s your choice. Obviously if you feel bodily harm is eminent, the proper authorities should be notified. But we all know this is highly unlikely. The next time a crew extends a friendly hello, ignore General Day and put the cell phone back in the pocket. Instead of dialing 911, just return the gesture or remain silent.

General Day’s divisive orders must be rejected. Fostering east/west unity must become USAPA’s number one goal. Like it or not, we will be sharing cockpits sooner than later.

TheEye also asks General Day to publish the unedited video of the CLT meeting for all members to examine. Hopefully the scene where he scoffs at two E190 pilots will be included so we can witness the General proclaim that the A330 pilots are not interested in their plight. Of course this excerpt will probably be cut from the published version as it is diametrically opposed to his empathetic (and fake) plea for their cause in today’s domicile update.

The bottom line is General Day doesn’t care about the E190 pilots nor is he interested in building east/west unity.

Sitting on the sidelines is unacceptable.

It’s time to join.
 
"Bad boys bad boys, wachya gonna do? Wachya gonna do when they smile at you..."

Officers responding to a 10-96 (Pilot adding cream to his coffee at Starbucks). 7 Mary 4 and 5 are on Segway pursuit of suspects wearing a red lanyard with flight kit sticker "U-S-A-P-A S-U-C-K-S" .

Call the CIRP team into action and leave the cops alone.
 
Yeah now that's getting pretty stupid. So far, I'm not a Day fan, just from what I've read about him. Perhaps a bad apple. I was heartened to read from the west reps that they had good dealings with the PHL reps. I know them to be good people, and we need all the good people we can get.

I actually get a kick out of watching west pilots in the terminal. There was the guy a few months ago explaining to the credit card pusher (you know, the guys asking in CLT "sir, who did you fly in on today?" and then the puzzled look from the customer who thinks "what an idiot how else would I get here except to ride usair...") (anyway) here was this pilot explaining to the credit card boy what arbitration was and that binding wasn't what was happening to his boxers it's what's supposed to happen after arbitration and blah blah blah......hilarious! Then, there was the west capt the other day who took it upon himself to describe me as an easthole to his flight attendants. They were impressed. He probably "scored" later.
 
As a pilot working for another airline, I feel that way about the America West pilots. Every time, I jumpseat on America West, I have to hear their side of the story again. As someone who doesn't care, I want to say STFU, but I don't because I am grateful for a ride. When I ride on the East airplanes, they don't even bring it up and neither do I.

Hockey;
That's funny. When ever I've had an off-line pilot in the jumpseat, he or she usually asks for a thumb-nail sketch of what is going on. I usually keep it short with highlights from the trial.

As a commuter, I am ALWAYS asked about the merger / pilot list issue. I am careful to make statements that are true, and not use any distasteful language.

I am sorry for your inconvenience during your ride to work or home.
 
OMG! Those videos are awesome!

That was the boringest video I never watched. The first one has 600+ views. After that videos 2 thru 8 have about 60 views apiece. Don't think anyone really cares. Sorry Jack. Another waste of USAPA dues money. Lobbying on YouTube? What are we a bunch of high school kids?
 

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