Why East Pilots are mad

[TWA Dude]

Not according to the East pilots. They rather see the airline fold then have the West get a windfall that is to be avoided per ALPA merger policy.

Prove it!

Trust me

No.

 

[MCDU]

Prove it!No.

Get over it Marty. This place is going Ch. 7 anyway. Who Cares anymore?

Last edited by becket; Yesterday at 16:59.

I am not the only one thinking it will self destruct.
The award is just not going to work. Sorry that you are still hoping for the windfall at the expense of the East pilots.

M

 

[Metrojet]

East pilots are mad because West pilots are going to continue to bring expose USAPA's lies and deceit. We will also continue to fund the fight, no matter how long it takes.

Here is an example of how the USAPA Las Vegas representative was treated in Charlotte. It was a Q&A session by Lee Seham, USAPA's attorney. Kind of makes you wonder what they are trying to hide.

This a portion of the Las Vegas update.

Fellow pilots,

May 21, 2009, is a day that I will remember for many years to come. It is the day that I became entirely convinced that the future of our careers at US Airways were in grave danger.

On May 20, 2009, Capt. Jeff Wagner and I flew to CLT, on our days off, with the purpose of attending the announced CLT Domicile meeting that was to be open to all USAPA members in good standing. Because of the extremely limited opportunity that I am provided to access the union’s legal counsel (even as a member of the union’s governing body), I felt that the opportunity to finally have my questions answered was worth the trip. Moreover, the opportunity to ask those questions in a public forum was even more encouraging, as USAPA is a union designed to be transparent and controlled directly by the line pilots.

On the morning of May 21, 2009, and after just 5 hours of sleep in the cheapest CLT motel that we could find, Jeff and I met to finalize the questions that we planned to ask Lee Seham later that day. We prepared 6 questions, all related to the trial. We were not so naïve as to expect straight answers to these simple questions from Mr. Seham, as we all know that this is impossible. Typically, Mr. Seham’s answers to simple questions that only require a 3-word response consist of a 10-minute circular dialogue. Therefore, the purpose of our visit was to publicly ask the sorts of questions that many pilots are afraid to ask, but for which the pilot group is entitled to answers. After all – this union does belong to the pilots! This was the proper forum in which to ask these questions, as the meeting was supposed to be videotaped and made available for all pilots to view at a later time.

We arrived at the CLT conference room just before the beginning of the meeting. While Jeff and I began to exchange cordial salutations with many of the other pilots present, there were a few surprised faces among us and a few comments to the effect of, “what are you doing here?” We are USAPA members, and it is a USAPA meeting, isn’t it?

USAPA had a video camera already prepared to record the event. However, just to make sure that we would have access to the footage in a timely matter and without edit of material that USAPA determined to be “non-factual,” we decided to bring our own camera to set beside theirs. Our idea was not well received. As soon as we mounted the tripod, we saw what could only be compared to throwing a piece of dead fish in a shark tank. This is a consistent theme in USAPA; when the communications cannot be unilaterally controlled by USAPA, they are simply not permitted. The following dialogue then took place between CLT Chairman Pat Day and me:

Capt. Day: Marcio!! That’s not gonna happen!!

Marcio: What?

Capt. Day: The video. You will not tape it; it is not going to be allowed.

Marcio: Yes I will; I am a member in good standing, I am part of the BPR. You are taping, I am taping.

Capt. Day: I don’t care, this is MY meeting, and you are not taping.

Marcio: Why not, Pat? What do you have to hide?

Capt. Day: Because I said so, it is MY meeting.

Marcio: No, Pat, it is not YOUR meeting; it is a union meeting, a meeting for all members in good standing.

After about two minutes of not-so-friendly arguments, including a threat to call the police to have me removed, Pat had the courage to present a resolution to prohibit us from recording the event. The majority of the pilots present voted in favor of the resolution. Pathetic.

Not five minutes later, two of Charlotte’s finest entered the conference room, armed and ready. I can only presume that being 6’ 5” and 260 lbs, I am perceived as a threat by a crowd of over 50 other pilots. It did not take long before the officers realized that they had better things to do and left the meeting.

Make no mistake, Capt. Day was in charge of HIS meeting. While I certainly understand and respect that a chairman is always required to maintain some sort of order in a meeting, I have never ever witnessed a union meeting being run with such a tone of arrogance and superiority.

Capt. Day’s rules for participation were as follows: each pilot may only ask one question, no follow up questions, no comments on the answers and no cross talking. During the first several minutes of the meeting, Capt. Day enforced his rules with terms such as “shut-up!”, “sit down!”, “quiet now!”, “leave!” I can assure you that his tone never deviated from “unfriendly.” These comments were directed by Capt. Day at not only myself, but to several of the other members present.

May 21, 2009, is a day that I will remember for many years to come. It is the day that I became entirely convinced that the future of our careers at US Airways were in grave danger.”

During the past several weeks as your representative, I have had the opportunity to work with a number of pilots out East. I believe that many of these pilots are interested in working with us on issues for which we have mutual interest. The problem is that (in my opinion) a number of USAPA leaders share the same radical anti-West views. Also, Mr. Seham has the ability to influence the leadership, and consequently the line pilot. Yet few question him (mostly because they are denied the opportunity to), and he is presented by the USAPA leadership as somebody who is always right and makes no mistakes. I’m bewildered that nobody has attempted to reconcile his continued losses in the court system with his reputation of never being wrong.

It is very clear that many of our purported leaders don’t want anything to do with us. They have absolutely no intention of compromise or to improve the life of the “American Western” pilots. It is all or nothing, and they are much happier with nothing than something.



If you are an EMB pilot, next time you see Pat, ask him if it is possible to have the $35 mil that is coming their way to be allocated to help our EMB pilots get a place to sleep or to put food on the table. This question was actually asked of Pat, and his answer was: “the A330 guys will not like that.”

Finally, I want to warn you that some of the current leaders of USAPA have only one goal, DOH. I believe that they are so egocentric and inflexible that if they do not achieve their goal, the careers and the jobs of 35,000 people may be in danger. They have the microphone, and the microphone will not filter what goes through it. Capt. Day is a perfect example. The inflexibility expressed during the meeting is always present. Just a few days ago, during a BPR conference call, I wanted to discuss the topic of cross-domicile open time pick up, something that we in the West value. However, without even letting me say more than a few words, Capt. Day screamed from the top of his lungs: “Absolutely not.” But as I said, he is only an example. If that is the will of the CLT-based pilots, then I assume that we will continue to drive towards the cliff.



Sincerely,

Marcio

On a last note, I would like to say that, besides Pat Day, the other members of the CLT domicile treated me with respect and professionalism. Since this airline has other issues other than seniority, I am pleased to report that PHL reps and I have been working TOGETHER on other issues that I am sure will improve the quality of life of all our pilots.


That "Capt. Day" is a real Richard Cranium !!!!!!

Cowboy75 -

Once again - I ask the question - if the west pilots want any chance to get to vote on a CBA - why is the majority not open to discussing a 10 year fence between current east and west bases? And there have been discussions about the conditions and restrictions - in the event there is an opening and no one bids from their respective bases - then that position is open to all pilots system wide.

The reason the west pilots say NO - is because they feel that if there is more downsizing in PHX & or LAS - if the NIC was implemented - all the furloughs would come from former east pilots - thereby protecting all WEST pilots from further layoffs - at the expense of current EAST pilots. When the Nic first came out - it was apparent that some on the West couldn't wait for their East Captain slot - now some on the west feel they should be further insulated and get all the First Officer slots also if there are additional layoffs.

Honestly - 99% of the East pilots will never ever vote for a CBA that includes the Nic in its current form. We have lived under LOA 93 for 5 years and it really is time get a better contract - but not at a cost like the west is demanding - it is just not going to happen. I really hope and recommend you go to your fellow West pilots - and explain to them it is really time to come to a consensus that benefits us all (otherwise we will be in litigation for many many years - or until the next merger - and then all bets are off).

Metrojet

 

[reepicheep]

I think the majority of west pilots remember PSA & realize the US Airways cost structure makes continued viability of PHX/LAS questionable so what good are 10-year fences if the domiciles are closed?

 

[Metrojet]

I think the majority of west pilots remember PSA & realize the US Airways cost structure makes continued viability of PHX/LAS questionable so what good are 10-year fences if the domiciles are closed?

When the former PSA bases were closed - nobody was furloughed - the pilots were displaced to other bases. Yeah it sucked - but that is part of this job (commuting or moving - your choice).


Metrojet

 

[reepicheep]

When the former PSA bases were closed - nobody was furloughed - the pilots were displaced to other bases. Yeah it sucked - but that is part of this job (commuting or moving - your choice).


Metrojet

Exactly. Offering "protection" in the form of fences around domiciles is illusory. Domiciles come and go.

 

[Cowboy75]

Cowboy75 -
I really hope and recommend you go to your fellow West pilots - and explain to them it is really time to come to a consensus that benefits us all (otherwise we will be in litigation for many many years - or until the next merger - and then all bets are off).
Metrojet

Metro,

You have figured it out, I am very much an insider, having spent seven days in the courtroom. I was there for the verdict and there was not dancing in the streets. Just quiet resolve. If you think you are on the right side of the law and public opinion, I have the right to disagree. My fight is against USAPA, an organization formed to cheat a proceess both sides agreed was Final and Binding.

I agree, all bets are off.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am not the only one thinking it will self destruct.

You misunderstood. What I want you to prove is that the Easties will shut this place down. When they've successfully shut down US Airways out of spite I will believe you.

The award is just not going to work.

Try it before you knock it. I'm willing to give it a go.

Sorry that you are still hoping for the windfall at the expense of the East pilots.

Apology not accepted.

 

[152SIC]

AWA pilots and the PFT mentality has created some real mad East pilots.
Nice video to see why East Pilots are so mad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GikRJNqxPbs

Part 1 of 8


Plus, think about this scenerio:
How the United pilots and the Nic award would work. almost 800 East pilots accepted recall and would be on the list junior to ' save Dave '. United is about 40% larger than a combined AWA/ AAA list - a ratio would put around 1250 pilots ( on a joint UAL/AAA/AWA) junior. So, with 1500 pilots on furlough and adding in 1250 on a ratio, then the bottom - the bottom - AWA pilot would be 2750 numbers up the list with a 2005 DOH.

M

Pilots like yourself make me embarrassed to have chosen this profession. I hope that I am able to change careers before age catches up with me.

Time will tell. At age 36 it is hard to start over, but I am trying.

Meanwhile you girls can bitch all you want. And let mgt trample over what should be a respectable career.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I am not the only one thinking it will self destruct.

I bet your east pilot boyfriend has been very unhappy lately, thus you firing up the computer with more of your drivel!

The award is just not going to work. Sorry that you are still hoping for the windfall at the expense of the East pilots.

M

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding. Besides Mcdoosh, what do you care, you don't even fly for a major. Get back to flying that Beech 1900 for Gulfstream. Just think, in 10 years, you'll have that PFT job all but paid for!:laugh:

 

[MCDU]

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding

Well avoid windfall means avoid windfall. Active pilot means active pilot and not furloughed. Westies had no Widebodie flying. With Nic they get it all. Windfall, Widebodie and even got the profit sharing.

There is no way any other carrier would have reacted different. Just look at the Air Wisconsin and MVA merger. AWAC got put in to trusteeship and was forced into a complete screw job. Just ask the oldtimers that used to fly the 146 on how Air Whiskey pilots feel. To bad they are all gone and the senior boys are the MVA jerks.


Every major airline would have reacted the same if a 18 year pilot gets put behind some one who is on probation at some low cost, high turn around, bottom feeder airline that has played its part in the downward spiral of this profession, by working under commuter wages in the 90's, with no pension and no work rules. AWA and their contracts in allowing 90 seat jets and their desire to undercut all major working conditions played a huge role on how low to set the bar. AWA pilots were a disgrace for excepting and staying at such and airline prior to 9/11. Its no wonder they have been referred to as Mesa Grande .


Get it tourette boy. Do bad you washed out at Gulfstreeam Steve. You are a slime ball and I understand that you feel longevity means nothing, which does not surprise me. Its the 90's PFT crowd that wants it all.

M

 

[becket]

Marty,

Nic and the other two neutrals say you're wrong:

The NWA/DAL merger indicates You're wrong:

A Federal Judge decided time and again to keep the trial moving fwd. IOW, You're wrong:

A Jury of 9 citizens, in 90 minutes, determined that You're wrong.

Now it's the Appellate courts chance to once again inform you that "You're Wrong"

Injunction inside of 30 days and the Damages trial begins in August. Someone in your house is going to have to start handing over some of their paltry E190 paycheck to help pay the damages that their Fake Union, that they so enthusiastically cheered on, has caused. Probably should have thought a little longer about that recall thing...there's a reason the vast majority of furloughees never returned. US Air has a long history of trashing careers. Perhaps you didn't notice that? Hardly new information.

Anyway, I know you guys have a psychotic aversion to facts and reality but it's all there. Read the Transcripts. The trial actually DID happen and your Fake Union was found GUILTY OF DFR. You, (or someone you know) are liable and your Fake Union and their $$$$ will soon be parted for the West pilots benefit.

BTW, a DFR is an exceptionally rare conviction. There is only a handful in several decades of modern labor law. Good Job Seham. The West Attorneys agree, Lee Seham is the best thing that could have happened for the AWA pilots. I mean really, if one plans on forming a Fake Union to forcibly rape the minority, the least one could do is hire the worlds most incompetent, pathologically dishonest, ambulance chaser. Seham has delivered nothing but bone crushing defeats and mountains of embarrassment. If the East ever took off their Nic. colored glasses maybe they would see what is clearly staring them in the face. Nah...that would require a rational thought. Never gonna happen. Nevermind.

 

[xanderman]

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding

Well avoid windfall means avoid windfall. Active pilot means active pilot and not furloughed. Westies had no Widebodie flying. With Nic they get it all. Windfall, Widebodie and even got the profit sharing.

There is no way any other carrier would have reacted different. Just look at the Air Wisconsin and MVA merger. AWAC got put in to trusteeship and was forced into a complete screw job. Just ask the oldtimers that used to fly the 146 on how Air Whiskey pilots feel. To bad they are all gone and the senior boys are the MVA jerks.


Every major airline would have reacted the same if a 18 year pilot gets put behind some one who is on probation at some low cost, high turn around, bottom feeder airline that has played its part in the downward spiral of this profession, by working under commuter wages in the 90's, with no pension and no work rules. AWA and their contracts in allowing 90 seat jets and their desire to undercut all major working conditions played a huge role on how low to set the bar. AWA pilots were a disgrace for excepting and staying at such and airline prior to 9/11. Its no wonder they have been referred to as Mesa Grande .


Get it tourette boy. Do bad you washed out at Gulfstreeam Steve. You are a slime ball and I understand that you feel longevity means nothing, which does not surprise me. Its the 90's PFT crowd that wants it all.

M

Where do you work again?

Oh! And by the way can you please quote where in ALPA merger policy it says that once you reach the arbitration phase that the arbiter and his panel are bound by the same tenets suggested during the negotiation phase? You quote that a lot so I'd like to read it if you can produce it. Thanks.

 

[dispatchguy]

You know, my one year old daughter doesnt whine as much as the Easties

- Former AWA Dispatcher, fight the good fight!!!!

 

[reepicheep]

"There is no way any other carrier would have acted different"

Quite true; a merger with any other carrier would have produced essentially the same result. Every other pilot group in the industry understands putting formerly employed pilots below currently employed pilots. Every other pilot group understands putting F/O's - whether they were hired in 1989 or 1999 - below Captains.

We're all waiting - still waiting - for someone from AirTran, or Southwest, or Delta, to come on here and tell us they agree with the usair pilot group and would have bought into the DOH concept & put their 7 year Captains behind 20-year F/O's.

Everyone in the industry is sorry that usair management took a good thing in the 80's and proceeded to screw it up so royally for the next 20 years. Everyone gets why the pilots are mad. What no one agrees with is trying to steal back lost careers from another pilot group.