Why East Pilots are mad

[reepicheep]

When the former PSA bases were closed - nobody was furloughed - the pilots were displaced to other bases. Yeah it sucked - but that is part of this job (commuting or moving - your choice).


Metrojet

Exactly. Offering "protection" in the form of fences around domiciles is illusory. Domiciles come and go.

 

[Cowboy75]

Cowboy75 -
I really hope and recommend you go to your fellow West pilots - and explain to them it is really time to come to a consensus that benefits us all (otherwise we will be in litigation for many many years - or until the next merger - and then all bets are off).
Metrojet

Metro,

You have figured it out, I am very much an insider, having spent seven days in the courtroom. I was there for the verdict and there was not dancing in the streets. Just quiet resolve. If you think you are on the right side of the law and public opinion, I have the right to disagree. My fight is against USAPA, an organization formed to cheat a proceess both sides agreed was Final and Binding.

I agree, all bets are off.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am not the only one thinking it will self destruct.

You misunderstood. What I want you to prove is that the Easties will shut this place down. When they've successfully shut down US Airways out of spite I will believe you.

The award is just not going to work.

Try it before you knock it. I'm willing to give it a go.

Sorry that you are still hoping for the windfall at the expense of the East pilots.

Apology not accepted.

 

[152SIC]

AWA pilots and the PFT mentality has created some real mad East pilots.
Nice video to see why East Pilots are so mad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GikRJNqxPbs

Part 1 of 8


Plus, think about this scenerio:
How the United pilots and the Nic award would work. almost 800 East pilots accepted recall and would be on the list junior to ' save Dave '. United is about 40% larger than a combined AWA/ AAA list - a ratio would put around 1250 pilots ( on a joint UAL/AAA/AWA) junior. So, with 1500 pilots on furlough and adding in 1250 on a ratio, then the bottom - the bottom - AWA pilot would be 2750 numbers up the list with a 2005 DOH.

M

Pilots like yourself make me embarrassed to have chosen this profession. I hope that I am able to change careers before age catches up with me.

Time will tell. At age 36 it is hard to start over, but I am trying.

Meanwhile you girls can bitch all you want. And let mgt trample over what should be a respectable career.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I am not the only one thinking it will self destruct.

I bet your east pilot boyfriend has been very unhappy lately, thus you firing up the computer with more of your drivel!

The award is just not going to work. Sorry that you are still hoping for the windfall at the expense of the East pilots.

M

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding. Besides Mcdoosh, what do you care, you don't even fly for a major. Get back to flying that Beech 1900 for Gulfstream. Just think, in 10 years, you'll have that PFT job all but paid for!:laugh:

 

[MCDU]

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding

Well avoid windfall means avoid windfall. Active pilot means active pilot and not furloughed. Westies had no Widebodie flying. With Nic they get it all. Windfall, Widebodie and even got the profit sharing.

There is no way any other carrier would have reacted different. Just look at the Air Wisconsin and MVA merger. AWAC got put in to trusteeship and was forced into a complete screw job. Just ask the oldtimers that used to fly the 146 on how Air Whiskey pilots feel. To bad they are all gone and the senior boys are the MVA jerks.


Every major airline would have reacted the same if a 18 year pilot gets put behind some one who is on probation at some low cost, high turn around, bottom feeder airline that has played its part in the downward spiral of this profession, by working under commuter wages in the 90's, with no pension and no work rules. AWA and their contracts in allowing 90 seat jets and their desire to undercut all major working conditions played a huge role on how low to set the bar. AWA pilots were a disgrace for excepting and staying at such and airline prior to 9/11. Its no wonder they have been referred to as Mesa Grande .


Get it tourette boy. Do bad you washed out at Gulfstreeam Steve. You are a slime ball and I understand that you feel longevity means nothing, which does not surprise me. Its the 90's PFT crowd that wants it all.

M

 

[becket]

Marty,

Nic and the other two neutrals say you're wrong:

The NWA/DAL merger indicates You're wrong:

A Federal Judge decided time and again to keep the trial moving fwd. IOW, You're wrong:

A Jury of 9 citizens, in 90 minutes, determined that You're wrong.

Now it's the Appellate courts chance to once again inform you that "You're Wrong"

Injunction inside of 30 days and the Damages trial begins in August. Someone in your house is going to have to start handing over some of their paltry E190 paycheck to help pay the damages that their Fake Union, that they so enthusiastically cheered on, has caused. Probably should have thought a little longer about that recall thing...there's a reason the vast majority of furloughees never returned. US Air has a long history of trashing careers. Perhaps you didn't notice that? Hardly new information.

Anyway, I know you guys have a psychotic aversion to facts and reality but it's all there. Read the Transcripts. The trial actually DID happen and your Fake Union was found GUILTY OF DFR. You, (or someone you know) are liable and your Fake Union and their $$$$ will soon be parted for the West pilots benefit.

BTW, a DFR is an exceptionally rare conviction. There is only a handful in several decades of modern labor law. Good Job Seham. The West Attorneys agree, Lee Seham is the best thing that could have happened for the AWA pilots. I mean really, if one plans on forming a Fake Union to forcibly rape the minority, the least one could do is hire the worlds most incompetent, pathologically dishonest, ambulance chaser. Seham has delivered nothing but bone crushing defeats and mountains of embarrassment. If the East ever took off their Nic. colored glasses maybe they would see what is clearly staring them in the face. Nah...that would require a rational thought. Never gonna happen. Nevermind.

 

[xanderman]

Once again, your east coast lover will have to get over it. Binding means binding

Well avoid windfall means avoid windfall. Active pilot means active pilot and not furloughed. Westies had no Widebodie flying. With Nic they get it all. Windfall, Widebodie and even got the profit sharing.

There is no way any other carrier would have reacted different. Just look at the Air Wisconsin and MVA merger. AWAC got put in to trusteeship and was forced into a complete screw job. Just ask the oldtimers that used to fly the 146 on how Air Whiskey pilots feel. To bad they are all gone and the senior boys are the MVA jerks.


Every major airline would have reacted the same if a 18 year pilot gets put behind some one who is on probation at some low cost, high turn around, bottom feeder airline that has played its part in the downward spiral of this profession, by working under commuter wages in the 90's, with no pension and no work rules. AWA and their contracts in allowing 90 seat jets and their desire to undercut all major working conditions played a huge role on how low to set the bar. AWA pilots were a disgrace for excepting and staying at such and airline prior to 9/11. Its no wonder they have been referred to as Mesa Grande .


Get it tourette boy. Do bad you washed out at Gulfstreeam Steve. You are a slime ball and I understand that you feel longevity means nothing, which does not surprise me. Its the 90's PFT crowd that wants it all.

M

Where do you work again?

Oh! And by the way can you please quote where in ALPA merger policy it says that once you reach the arbitration phase that the arbiter and his panel are bound by the same tenets suggested during the negotiation phase? You quote that a lot so I'd like to read it if you can produce it. Thanks.

 

[dispatchguy]

You know, my one year old daughter doesnt whine as much as the Easties

- Former AWA Dispatcher, fight the good fight!!!!

 

[reepicheep]

"There is no way any other carrier would have acted different"

Quite true; a merger with any other carrier would have produced essentially the same result. Every other pilot group in the industry understands putting formerly employed pilots below currently employed pilots. Every other pilot group understands putting F/O's - whether they were hired in 1989 or 1999 - below Captains.

We're all waiting - still waiting - for someone from AirTran, or Southwest, or Delta, to come on here and tell us they agree with the usair pilot group and would have bought into the DOH concept & put their 7 year Captains behind 20-year F/O's.

Everyone in the industry is sorry that usair management took a good thing in the 80's and proceeded to screw it up so royally for the next 20 years. Everyone gets why the pilots are mad. What no one agrees with is trying to steal back lost careers from another pilot group.

 

[BeCareful!]

Everyone in the industry is sorry that usair management took a good thing in the 80's and proceeded to screw it up so royally for the next 20 years. Everyone gets why the pilots are mad. What no one agrees with is trying to steal back lost careers from another pilot group.

No one is trying to steal anything. No one is asking or even suggesting that one of your young captains fly with one of our FO's. The NIC, undiluted with a reasonable fence as it is, would place some of you insulting whipper snappers in the left seat barking "gear up, grandpa!" to people who don't deserve that. You guys act like such holes on here and you wonder why there's resistance. Jesus....what unckle muckers.

TWA....that's mighty big of you to be willing to give the NIC a try. I'll bet there would be guys junior to you who were captains here when you got hired at TWA.

In any case, y'all have fun wearing out your keyboards trashing anyone with a different viewpoint. Maybe if you spend enough time on the Internet it will all go away.

 

[TWA Dude]

No one is trying to steal anything.

Sorry but that's not true. Nicolau decided the new seniority list by mutual agreement. The East's failed attempt to get something better than the Nicolau list means the West would get something worse. That is stealing.

TWA....that's mighty big of you to be willing to give the NIC a try.

Oh come on, you've read what Marty MCDU has written. He deserves all the derision he gets.

I'll bet there would be guys junior to you who were captains here when you got hired at TWA.

So? My furlough job was at Trans States and in fact I did fly as captain to FOs who'd been my captain at TWA. Sad, but that's the harsh reality of this industry.

The current USAirways is a brand new airline formed from two previous ones. At the time of the merger the bottom active pilot at US Airways was a junior pilot no matter how many years longevity nor what seat he previously occupied. You can't be both senior AND junior, right? So why should a junior pilot at USAirways be put senior to a junior pilot at AWA? To see the answer to this question and more please re-read the Nicolau award.

 

[Ocity]

Sorry but that's not true. Nicolau decided the . At the time of the merger the bottom active pilot at US Airways was a junior pilot no matter how many years longevity nor what seat he previously occupied. You can't be both senior AND junior, right? So why should a junior pilot at USAirways be put senior to a junior pilot at AWA? To see the answer to this question and more please re-read the Nicolau award.

C'mon T-way. Logic and irrefutable, Fact-based reality has no business being discussed with an East guy. It's their personal kryptonite. The can't handle it.

 

[PHXFLYR]

.......................

 

[hockeypilot44]

You know, my one year old daughter doesnt whine as much as the Easties

- Former AWA Dispatcher, fight the good fight!!!!

As a pilot working for another airline, I feel that way about the America West pilots. Every time, I jumpseat on America West, I have to hear their side of the story again. As someone who doesn't care, I want to say STFU, but I don't because I am grateful for a ride. When I ride on the East airplanes, they don't even bring it up and neither do I.

 

[xanderman]

Find that quote yet MCDU?

 

[UALjan15]

When I ride on the East airplanes, they don't even bring it up and neither do I.

Of course they don't--they know the rest of the industry lost all respect for them when they turned there back on binding arbitration. There aren't a lot of sympathetic ears out there to whine to. Does a Catholic priest bring up in sermon how much fun he has with your sons?

 

[Carl S.]

99+% of jumpseaters are going to say how it is going, if they care I do not know. They are not going to disagree strongly with a crew that is giving them a ride. Do you tell your host at dinner that it sucked? I do not think so. All this jumpseat talk or no talk is pure B.S. Just get your facts from your local PACER account before any side gets to manipulate it. The truth will set you free young grasshopper!

 

[Cowboy75]

PHOENIX DOMICILE UPDATE


May 29, 2009​

The Federal Judicial System​

The Appeals Process​

The losing party in a verdict by a trial court in the federal judicial system normally is entitled to appeal the decision to a federal court of appeals. In a civil case, either side may appeal the decision. In the case of Addington, et al v USAPA, the trial court was the District Court of Arizona. This district court is located in the middle region of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, and the appeal would be reviewed by the 9th Circuit Court located in San Francisco, California.


The following are some fact only bullet points of the Federal appeals process.

A litigant who files an appeal is known as an "appellant."

In this appeals case, the appellant will be USAPA.

In the trial court, USAPA is known as defendant.

​

A litigant defending against the appeal is known as the "appellee."

In this appeals case, the appellee will be Addington, et al.

In the trial court, Addington, et al is known as Plaintiff.

​

Typically, the first step is to file a notice of appeal in the district (trial) court where the case was decided.

Normally, the appellant must file an appeal within 30 days of issuance of the final court order1 in the case.
The district court informs the court of appeals and other parties involved.
In a civil appeal, the district court may require appellant to file a surety bond (Fed. R. App. P.7).

This bond or other tangible security may be necessary to guarantee payment of costs on appeal.


​

A three judge panel from the appeals court works together to make a decision based on the record of the case established by the trial court.

Judges are assigned to panels randomly.

The panel can include judges from a variety of sources including:

A senior circuit or district judge.

The district judge can be from a district court within the particular circuit, and/or
A visiting circuit or district judge from another circuit.

​

It is important to note that the appellate court "does NOT receive additional evidence" or hear witnesses.
Factual findings of the trial court may also be reviewed by the court of appeals.

However, overturning a lower court's decision based on factual grounds occurs only if the findings were "clearly erroneous."

​

The appellant has the burden to prove that the trial court made a substantial legal error that affected the decision in the case.

Legal arguments are offered to the panel by the appellant in a written document called a "brief."
Through the brief, the appellant tries to convince the judges of an error in the trial court and petition to have this decision reversed or remanded back for a new trial in the district (trial) court.

​

The appellee files a reply brief to demonstrate that the trial court gained the correct outcome.

If an error was committed by the trial court, the appellee brief will explain why the error was not significant enough to affect the outcome of the case.

​

The appeals court can make a decision based on written briefs only. However, many times, the court will hear oral arguments.

The appeals court generally requests oral argument in slightly more than 50 percent of appeal cases.
During oral argument, a structured discussion of the disputed legal principles occurs between the appellate attorneys and the judges.
The appellant and appellee are typically given 15 minutes to present oral arguments to the court.
In certain cases, the oral arguments will be heard en banc which means by a larger group of judges than the original 3. Most times, en banc arguments will be heard by all2 the judges of the particular circuit.

As of 2009, there are 29 authorized judgeships to the 9th Circuit.
As a matter of course, it is generally rare to have en banc review in any of the 12 circuits.

​

Oral arguments are open to the public.

The 2nd and 9th Circuit will review requests to allow for electronic and photographic coverage of oral arguments.
The 7th, 8th, and 9th Circuits make available Internet digital recordings of oral arguments.

​

The court of appeals decision is normally the final ruling in a case although there are exceptions.

The decision is normally accompanied by an opinion explaining the courts rationale.

A decision may be reached by a 3-0 or 2-1 vote.
A decision will take into account and apply any relevant precedents and similar cases already decided by that court, or by the U.S. Supreme Court.

​

The court of appeals can send the case back to the trial court for additional proceedings.

Recent history of the 9th Circuit provides approximately a 5-10 percent chance of overturning a decision originally made by the trial court.

​

A party in the case, either the appellant or appellee, can request the Supreme Court to hear the case.

Party requesting Supreme Court review is required to file Writ of Certiorari (pronounced sƏr-shee-Ə-rair-ee) or "Cert" for short.
Certs narrow or limit the scope of Supreme Court appeal jurisdiction.
The Supreme Court "will agree to hear a case only when it involves an unusually important legal principle, or when two or more federal appellate courts have interpreted a law differently."
Only 1-2 percent of Certs are granted annually by the Supreme Court.

​

Based on data from the 2007 Annual Report of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, the total median time from filing an appeal to final disposition in appellate court was 18.6 months.

2006 statistics were only slightly better at 15.5 months
2008 court statistics have yet to be released.
Compared to the other circuit courts, the appeals process of the Ninth Circuit takes 20-25 percent longer due to the higher case load.
Once an appeal case is fully briefed, Ninth Circuit judges decided cases fairly rapidly. In 2007, final disposition of the appeals court occurred in .2 months for a case submitted on briefs and 1.2 months for a case in which oral arguments were heard.

​

Notes:

1 It appears that in this particular case, the 30 day requirement will be waived due to the different time lines of injunctive relief (scheduled order delivered in late-June 2009) and a jury trial for damages (not officially scheduled; Possibly late August 2009). Plaintiffs – Appellees have already filled motion with no objection in district court.
2 Unique to the 9th Circuit Court, because of its larger size relative to other circuits, a "limited en banc" review would be called of a randomly selected 15 judge panel versus the full court.

Sources of Fact Information:

Understanding the Federal Courts, http://www.uscourts.gov/understand03/content_1_0.html

The 2007 Annual Report of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/publicat...Report2007.pdf

United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/rules/FRAP/Rules_TOC.htm
__________________

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Where do you work again?

Good question!
Some of MCdoosh's greatest hits:


Marty saying he doesn’t work for US Air.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848465#post848465

Marty saying he has nothing to do with this merger

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848322#post848322

Marty claiming to be a UAL pilot.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1224345#post1224345

So, where do you work doosh?
Or is this just more hot air from you Us Air east lover?
You better go out and supplement that Gulfstream pay McDoosh, your man may soon be out of a job!:laugh: