Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[Hugh Johnson]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or (2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.


This is pretty easy. 121.651(a)(1). Opspecs rule. They are FAA approved. End of discussion. If your opspecs say you can do jato takoffs from grass strips, you can.

You guys that think you need 3 rvr's for take off are ignorant morons. Those are landing only. WTF do you care what the rvr is 9000 feet down the runway?

It's obvious, in these 6 pages, about 3 guys understand the rules they fly under.

 

[gunfyter]

Show me the OpSpecs that say you can takeoff with less than 1600 RVR and ONLY one RVR reported?

Nobody has that OpSpec.

 

[regionalcap]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or (2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.


This is pretty easy. 121.651(a)(1). Opspecs rule. They are FAA approved. End of discussion. If your opspecs say you can do jato takoffs from grass strips, you can.

You guys that think you need 3 rvr's for take off are ignorant morons. Those are landing only. WTF do you care what the rvr is 9000 feet down the runway?

It's obvious, in these 6 pages, about 3 guys understand the rules they fly under.

Are you aware that you do need 3 RVR's if you use 300 RVR? The ignorant morons comment was not necessary.

 

[gunfyter]

Are you aware that you do need 3 RVR's if you use 300 RVR? The ignorant morons comment was not necessary.

300 RVR?

 

[rustypigeon]

If you think that Jepps are controlling then you are doing your company a disservice, (unless you enjoy making the extra $$ waiting for RVR's to go up!) Please call your training department and talk to one of your in-house sim instructors. They will tell you that ops specs dictate when you can takeoff, not Jeppesen.
I have to stop reading this thread, its too irritating for a Saturday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

I have worked for one 135 operator and two different 121 operators, all of which were issued the op specs to use lower than standard minimums. I never knew there was this much confusion on the issue. At every operator I have worked for, if the jepps had a higher requirement than the op specs, we had to use the more restrictive.

At my current company, we were approved to use 5/5/5 long before any of the airports we served were approved to use 5/5/5. It was common knowledge among the pilots and the training dept that we effectively wouldn't be able to go below 6/6/6 because no airport we served had takeoff mins lower than that, as dictated in the Jepps.

The 121 company I worked for prior had the same interpretation. I was able to find my old FOM and this is what it says verbatim....

Takeoff minimums applicable to all Part 121 Operators are published on the Jeppesen Approach Charts for each airport in the block titled 'Takeoff'. At some airports, obstructions or other factors require the establishment of higher than standard takeoff minimums and/or IFR departure procedures to assist pilots during an IFR climbout.

I had never heard a disagreement on what this meant in the 3 different companies, and hundreds of pilots I have flown with... That is, until I read this thread.

 

[Kenny]

This thread is extremely worrying because when you can or can't legally take off shouldn't ever be in question or a gray area.

The 10-9 is always the lowest required vis. Just because your ops-specs allow you to launch with a lower visibility requirement does not mean you can disregard the requirements of the 10-9.

Think of it this way, where I work we are authorised to do ILS approaches down to 1800rvr with the AP and FD. However, if the requirements on the approach plate are higher, it doesn't mean I can disregard them and do the approach anyway.

Guys, rather than argue or rely on Website hearsay, this might be a really good time to talk to your respective training depts and find out for yourselves.

 

[TapitLight]

I was the original poster on this thread and someone had asked which flight I was that morning out of those listed KSBN departures.

I was due off at 6:01am we ended up being out at around 9:00 am. So we got to witness the only two Part 121 departures during that 3 hour period of 1/8sm visibility, the Pinnacle flights.

ASH7217

Departure Status Details
Airport: (SBN) South Bend Regional
City: South Bend, IN, US Scheduled: 6:04 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 8:57 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009


Arrival Status Details
Airport: (ORD) O'Hare International Airport
City: Chicago, IL, US Scheduled: 6:01 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 9:52 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 (runway) Landed on runway 231 min later than scheduled at gate.

 

[deadstick]

WOW!

I feel like I should fill out a NASA form for just reading this thread.

Yep...

 

[Metro752]

I will LOL if the FAA subpoenas user information for enforcement action here.

WTF guys, how do you not know what the rules are flying around in 50+ seat jet airplanes???

 

[ChickenSled]

I was the original poster on this thread and someone had asked which flight I was that morning out of those listed KSBN departures.

I was due off at 6:01am we ended up being out at around 9:00 am. So we got to witness the only two Part 121 departures during that 3 hour period of 1/8sm visibility, the Pinnacle flights.

ASH7217

Departure Status Details
Airport: (SBN) South Bend Regional
City: South Bend, IN, US Scheduled: 6:04 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 8:57 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009


Arrival Status Details
Airport: (ORD) O'Hare International Airport
City: Chicago, IL, US Scheduled: 6:01 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 9:52 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 (runway) Landed on runway 231 min later than scheduled at gate.

I'm just asking, because during the time frame you describe, flightaware shows me 7 different aircraft getting out of there before you. 1 Commutair, 1 ASA, 1 CHQ, 3 Pinnacle, and a King Air.

You are saying the only departures were two Pinnacle flights. So, either there is a major bug with flightaware where it makes up 5 flights which never happened, or there is something really wrong with your story. Which one is it?


ASH7217 CRJ2Chicago O'Hare Intl (KORD)Thu 10:18 ESTThu 09:53 CSTThu 09:35 CST
FLG2941 CRJ2Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW)Thu 08:34 ESTThu 09:09 ESTThu 09:00 EST
N930MC BE9L(CY72)Thu 08:17 ESTThu 14:33 GMTThu 14:23 GMT
FLG2890 CRJ2Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP)Thu 07:32 ESTThu 07:37 CSTThu 07:37 CST
CHQ6045 E145N Kentucky Intl (KCVG)Thu 06:47 ESTThu 07:27 ESTThu 07:21 EST
FLG2354 CRJ2Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW)Thu 06:42 ESTThu 07:17 ESTThu 07:08 EST
ASQ5303 CRJ2Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (KATL)Thu 06:41 ESTThu 08:13 ESTThu 08:11 EST
UCA8732 DH8BCleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE)Thu 06:08 ESTThu 07:07 ESTThu 06:54 EST

 

[Metro752]

There was a Mesa flight out after 10am that I did not include originally because looking at the METAR for that time the weather had improved, and they obviously were not one of the planes that departed with 1/8sm vis.

KSBN 261454Z 12007KT 1/2SM FG OVC001 01/01 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP196 T00110011 58015 $
KSBN 261554Z 12007KT 1/4SM FG OVC001 03/03 A3007 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 SLP189 T00280028
KSBN 261654Z 11007KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC003 04/03 A3005 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 1/2 SLP183 T00390026 $


Chickensled, not sure why you are jumping on the OPs case, unless you're a PCL guy.


4-1-0 it dude!

 

[TapitLight]

I have a long story for that morning. I was operating ASH7217 SBN-ORD. Our original departure time was scheduled at 6:04am. When I arrived at the plane I immediately found that we had a low hydraulic quantity. MX was called and the mechanic was coming from off field. He got to the plane at 6:20, finished in 5 mins and we boarded. We had to deice due to the FZFG and we knew we would have to wait out the visiblity becase we had learned that it has just dropped to 1000RVR. We deiced and headed for the runway. During our taxi to the runway we got a call from ops stating our deicing was not done with correctly heated fluid and we would need to come back to the gate. This was a shocker! Glad they caught us huh! We went back to the gate and decided just to wait out the visiblility there. And there we waited until our departure around 900am. There were some breaks in the visilbity prior to 630am or so in which a few other planes got out. But there was a period of a few hours where there were no visibility changes and two Pinnacle plans and the PART 91 King Air departed. The story is straight. If we would not have had that slight MX delay we would have bet the weather and been on our way.

 

[SEVEN]

Pull the Freak'n Plug Already!!!

There is a definitive answer...

OpSpecs require at least 2 working RVRs for less than 1600RVR takeoff mins.

SBN RW 27L has ONLY ONE RVR....

1000 RVR takeoffs are not allowed.

Right! Pinnacle had NO right launching out of SBN that morning unless they were 91. Jepps require 1600R RVR and the LIDMO-whatevercrap requires 1/4 mile. Either way both flights took off illegally and will probably be reported. It's amazing to me that this blatent lack of saftey is still going on at 9E. Time to pule the plug. Enough is enough. Go pull this crap at a shotty freight company, not when your carrying innocent passengers who don't even know what they are doing when they boarded those planes in SBN.
Was there even a takeoff alt? God help us all!

oh yeah...one more thing...is there a timeline to paint the 200's at 9E in DAL colors?
I wonder why not?!?
Hint: Delta Connection carriers NO NOT have red tails.....

 

[ChickenSled]

There was a Mesa flight out after 10am that I did not include originally because looking at the METAR for that time the weather had improved, and they obviously were not one of the planes that departed with 1/8sm vis.

KSBN 261454Z 12007KT 1/2SM FG OVC001 01/01 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP196 T00110011 58015 $
KSBN 261554Z 12007KT 1/4SM FG OVC001 03/03 A3007 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 SLP189 T00280028
KSBN 261654Z 11007KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC003 04/03 A3005 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 1/2 SLP183 T00390026 $


Chickensled, not sure why you are jumping on the OPs case, unless you're a PCL guy.


4-1-0 it dude!

I am indeed. And thanks for the good natured jab at the memory of two dead colleauges. Nice to know that you were lucky enough not to die everytime you thought no one was watching and you thought it would be fun to try something stupid.

Every captain I've ever flown with at Pinnicle would take 2 minutes to pull out their FOM, read where it says in plain english, One RVR -> 1600, unless the LIDO is more restrictive and RVR is controlling if available. The AOI for SBN says 1/4 mile, which is equivalent to 1600, which all makes sense. Come on guys, this stuff is easy, and it is written right in your book, just look it up.

I'm pretty sure the tower knows you need 1600 to take off on that runway as well. And yet, they cleared six 121 aircraft to take off when this guy is saying the RVR was only 1000.

So, what is going on here, I dunno. Maybe we have a Mesa guy who doesn't like clouds and is getting some heat for unnecessarilly delaying a flight for over three hours. I've sat in the right seat and watched it happen. To take some heat off himself he jumps on the internet and makes a seven page thread out of it.

What I do know is that there are six captains that should really be filling out ASAP reports right now because someone is on the internet accusing them of taking off illegally. I don't even know if that is an option for ASA and Commutair, pretty sure CHQ has it.

The other thing I know for sure is there are a bunch of guys posting on here who should go dust off their FOM/GOM and review this stuff.

 

[RJLoser]

I have a long story for that morning. I was operating ASH7217 SBN-ORD. Our original departure time was scheduled at 6:04am. When I arrived at the plane I immediately found that we had a low hydraulic quantity. MX was called and the mechanic was coming from off field. He got to the plane at 6:20, finished in 5 mins and we boarded. We had to deice due to the FZFG and we knew we would have to wait out the visiblity becase we had learned that it has just dropped to 1000RVR. We deiced and headed for the runway. During our taxi to the runway we got a call from ops stating our deicing was not done with correctly heated fluid and we would need to come back to the gate. This was a shocker! Glad they caught us huh! We went back to the gate and decided just to wait out the visiblility there. And there we waited until our departure around 900am. There were some breaks in the visilbity prior to 630am or so in which a few other planes got out. But there was a period of a few hours where there were no visibility changes and two Pinnacle plans and the PART 91 King Air departed. The story is straight. If we would not have had that slight MX delay we would have bet the weather and been on our way.

Sounds fishy.