Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[great cornholio]

Exactly.

In the ideal world, completly flat with no obstacles, we could rely entirely on the op specs to provide our visibility requirements.

With a temporary obstruction, a notam will be issued about a tempory increase in takeoff mins. (you read all your notams right?)

Here is one for KAGS... TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: RWY 35, 300-1 1/4 OR STANDARD WITH MINIMUM CLIMB OF 356 FT PER NM TO 500. TEMPORARY CRANE 5505 FT FROM DEPARTURE END OF RWY, 324 FT LEFT OF CENTERLINE, 200 FT AGL/320 FT MSL. TEMPORARY CRANE 6057 FT FROM DEPARTURE END OF RWY, 1262 FT LEFT OF CENTERLINE, 200 FT AGL/355 FT MSL. ALL OTHER DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED.

Now at airports that have permanent obstructions (mountains, buildings, towers) you have permanently higher mins, and those are published in the jepps. I again go back to the Williamport PA (IPT) example. Runway 27 requires 500-1 due to a mountain to the west. The interesting thing about IPT is that it also has a ceiling requirement. This is because a VMC climb must be made to a heading of 300 after takeoff.

You guys saying that the Op Specs supercede the Jepp numbers... Are you willing to depart runway 27 at IPT with 1/4 vis with a fed sitting in your jumpseat? Your Op Specs say you can with adequate visual reference, but the jepps say you need 500-1.

I busted out my GOM and the ops specs say that for non published takeoff minima I can go all the way down to 600 RVR provided I see certain things out the front window.

It also says that if published take off minima is standard or less than standard that I can still go down to 600 RVR depending on what I see out my front window.

KAGS with the temp notam I can still go down to 600 RVR provided I can meet that climb gradient.

KIPT I have to go with whats published cause there is no cimb gradient given which could take the min down to "standard"

 

[TapitLight]

So are you saying that at South Bend you can take their single 1000RVR report from a single RVR reporting station and turn that into situation where you will go with visibility that is less that what is required on the back of the 10-9 page.

it could very well be:
touchdown RVR 1000
midpoint RVR 0
rollout RVR 0

This may be one reason that KSBN has a higher min of 1600RVR, because they are relying on only one RVR report.

I still say you can not disregard the Jepp charts, it is there for a reason.

 

[surplus1]

I won't join the 'debate' about what you can or cannot do - but I will say this:

I find it no less that incredible/appalling that you can not agree on such and important thing.

This raises a whole lot of issues that have nothing to do with takeoff minimums. Issues that are far more serious.

I can only wonder as to what other 'disagreements' might be out there. Is safety really that much in doubt?

WOW!

 

[cocknbull]

Does SBN have a SMGCS chart? If not I don't think 121 air crews air allowed to taxi below 1200 RVR!

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Does SBN have a SMGCS chart? If not I don't think 121 air crews air allowed to taxi below 1200 RVR!

First I've heard of that.... I don't think JFK has one of those charts yet it doesn't shut down at 1000 RVR.

 

[rustypigeon]

KAGS with the temp notam I can still go down to 600 RVR provided I can meet that climb gradient.

KIPT I have to go with whats published cause there is no cimb gradient given which could take the min down to "standard"

I used the KAGS notam because I knew they had the notam and I could find it quickly. I am sure there are airports out there with the same kind of notam without the climb gradient qualifier.

My questions for you in this case...
1. Do you think your op specs can override a notam increading t/o vis requirements?
2. If you can't override a notam that was issued because of a temporary obstruction, how can you override a published miminum issued because of a permanent obstruction?

 

[cocknbull]

First I've heard of that.... I don't think JFK has one of those charts yet it doesn't shut down at 1000 RVR.

Very True!

 

[cocknbull]

Ha Ha Ha, this is hilarious. I just read my op specs, fom, and faa docs on this matter and they all contradict each other! Some contradict each other within the same document!

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Does SBN have a SMGCS chart? If not I don't think 121 air crews air allowed to taxi below 1200 RVR!

Nope. You don't need a SMGCS chart to taxi below 1200 RVR. If it is <1200 and SMGCS procedures are in effect, then you use the SMGCS chart. It's like holding short of the ILS critical area. Only do it if you're told to.

For example, all those small 121 airports with one runway and one parallel taxiway. Do you really think you need a SMGCS chart to figure that one out?

 

[great cornholio]

So are you saying that at South Bend you can take their single 1000RVR report from a single RVR reporting station and turn that into situation where you will go with visibility that is less that what is required on the back of the 10-9 page.

it could very well be:
touchdown RVR 1000
midpoint RVR 0
rollout RVR 0

This may be one reason that KSBN has a higher min of 1600RVR, because they are relying on only one RVR report.

I still say you can not disregard the Jepp charts, it is there for a reason.

No I'm not saying that I can dept SBN with only one 1000 RVR report. I'm just saying that even though 1600 RVR is on the back of the Jepps I can go all the way down to 600 RVR if certain criteria are met. For me anything below 1600 RVR requires at least 2 working RVRs at or above the "next threshold" so for me the thresholds are 1600 RVR-1/4sm....1200 RVR....1000RVR....600RVR, each of which require different things to be seen out my window.

I know for a fact that we disregard the back of the Jepss unless they are higher than standard. The training dept makes a point to tell us that. They said it in New hire 5 years ago and again in every recurrent, upgrade, downgrade, etc class I've ever been in. Just like can derive alternate mins so unless its an "NA" we can ignore the "for filing as an alternate" numbers on the back of the Jepps too.

 

[great cornholio]

I used the KAGS notam because I knew they had the notam and I could find it quickly. I am sure there are airports out there with the same kind of notam without the climb gradient qualifier.

My questions for you in this case...
1. Do you think your op specs can override a notam increading t/o vis requirements?
2. If you can't override a notam that was issued because of a temporary obstruction, how can you override a published miminum issued because of a permanent obstruction?

My ops specs just say "non published" or "published" take off mins. I'm guessing that it doesn't matter if it is published on the back of the Jepp or in a NOTAM. All it says is that if the takeoff mins require a special procedure then you can't reduce that unless there is a climb gradient that can be met which would make the special procedure obsolete.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I feel like I should fill out a NASA form for just reading this thread.

 

[SEVEN]

Wow. It is almost disturbing the amount of interpretations going on. Guys, 121 op specs give you the authorization to use less than standard t/o mins. ie 5000/1. If tower is reporting 1000 rvr, the Jepp plate says 1600rvr, your op specs say 500rvr, YOU ARE NOT LEGAL TO DEPART. Your op spec which authorized you to depart with rvr down to 500 does not mean you can do that at any airport. The airport also has to have authorization down to 500 rvr. It is your op specs or published, what ever is greater.

You are correct. Hopefully this ends this thread. If there is any doubt about this topic......look no further, jehtplane is right.

 

[SEVEN]

.............................................

 

[Metro752]

Ok here we go.

Flights that departed in the morning on 2/26 from SBN.

FLG2941 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Thu 08:34 EST Thu 09:09 EST Thu 09:00 EST
N930MC BE9L (CY72) Thu 08:17 EST Thu 14:33 GMT Thu 14:23 GMT
FLG2890 CRJ2 Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) Thu 07:32 EST Thu 07:37 CST Thu 07:37 CST
CHQ6045 E145 N Kentucky Intl (KCVG) Thu 06:47 EST Thu 07:27 EST Thu 07:21 EST
FLG2354 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Thu 06:42 EST Thu 07:17 EST Thu 07:08 EST
ASQ5303 CRJ2 Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (KATL) Thu 06:41 EST Thu 08:13 EST Thu 08:11 EST
UCA8732 DH8B Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE) Thu 06:08 EST Thu 07:07 EST Thu 06:54 EST



Here is your SBN weather for 2/26 in the morning....

KSBN 260954Z 00000KT 1/4SM FZFG VV001 M03/M03 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP209 T10281033
KSBN 261054Z 00000KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M03/M03 A3014
KSBN 261154Z 11003KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M02 A3013 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/4 SLP210 T10111017 11006 21033 50003
KSBN 261254Z 10003KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M01 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP206 T10111011
KSBN 261354Z 11005KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M01 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP205 T10061006

 

[Metro752]

My first thought was, maybe they were delayed, or canceled carrying pax, and blasted off 91 to repo the plane.

 

[EL10]

Takeoff Minimums
OPS Spec: C056

The RVR reports, when available for a specific runway, are controlling for all operations on that runway. Other runways at the same airport which do not have RVR reporting equipment are controlled by the reported visibility.

The takeoff is governed only by visibility minimum. If a ceiling requirement is specified for takeoff, it too is controlling.

Takeoff minimums are specified on the airport plan view page (10-9, 11-1, etc., AOI and RAR in LIDO) or supplemental data pages (10-7, CCI, etc.) of the Route Manual. If a newly commissioned facilities meet the specifications of the required minimums may be used prior to the Route Manual pages being updated.

Lower Than Standard Minimums
OPS Spec C078

When takeoff minimums are not published for a particular runway or airport, standard minimums and any lower than standard takeoff minimums authorized in operations specifications are authorized.

 

[jehtplane]

Takeoff Minimums
OPS Spec: C056

The RVR reports, when available for a specific runway, are controlling for all operations on that runway. Other runways at the same airport which do not have RVR reporting equipment are controlled by the reported visibility.

The takeoff is governed only by visibility minimum. If a ceiling requirement is specified for takeoff, it too is controlling.

Takeoff minimums are specified on the airport plan view page (10-9, 11-1, etc., AOI and RAR in LIDO) or supplemental data pages (10-7, CCI, etc.) of the Route Manual. If a newly commissioned facilities meet the specifications of the required minimums may be used prior to the Route Manual pages being updated.

Lower Than Standard Minimums
OPS Spec C078

When takeoff minimums are not published for a particular runway or airport, standard minimums and any lower than standard takeoff minimums authorized in operations specifications are authorized.

Thank you...

 

[Scapegoat]

People, the back of the 10-9 is NOT CONTROLLING for airlines! Period. Please read the 121 reg that was posted earlier in this thread. You must look at what you are authorized to do (based on ops specs). Ops specs are issued based on training at your company. I know we cant use certain Cat 2 apchs that use the MM for the DH or ones that use barometric pressure, though they are listed as 1200' RVR Cat 2's. We also cant use the CAT 2 in BOI because of the apch lights that it has. We need ALSF 1 or 2's.
If you think that Jepps are controlling then you are doing your company a disservice, (unless you enjoy making the extra $$ waiting for RVR's to go up!) Please call your training department and talk to one of your in-house sim instructors. They will tell you that ops specs dictate when you can takeoff, not Jeppesen.
I have to stop reading this thread, its too irritating for a Saturday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

 

[ChickenSled]

Ok here we go.

Flights that departed in the morning on 2/26 from SBN.

FLG2941 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Thu 08:34 EST Thu 09:09 EST Thu 09:00 EST
N930MC BE9L (CY72) Thu 08:17 EST Thu 14:33 GMT Thu 14:23 GMT
FLG2890 CRJ2 Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) Thu 07:32 EST Thu 07:37 CST Thu 07:37 CST
CHQ6045 E145 N Kentucky Intl (KCVG) Thu 06:47 EST Thu 07:27 EST Thu 07:21 EST
FLG2354 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Thu 06:42 EST Thu 07:17 EST Thu 07:08 EST
ASQ5303 CRJ2 Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (KATL) Thu 06:41 EST Thu 08:13 EST Thu 08:11 EST
UCA8732 DH8B Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE) Thu 06:08 EST Thu 07:07 EST Thu 06:54 EST



Here is your SBN weather for 2/26 in the morning....

KSBN 260954Z 00000KT 1/4SM FZFG VV001 M03/M03 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP209 T10281033
KSBN 261054Z 00000KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M03/M03 A3014
KSBN 261154Z 11003KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M02 A3013 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/4 SLP210 T10111017 11006 21033 50003
KSBN 261254Z 10003KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M01 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP206 T10111011
KSBN 261354Z 11005KT 1/8SM FZFG VV001 M01/M01 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP205 T10061006

TapitLight, your profile says you fly a CRJ, so I'm assuming you were in the ASA plane.

According to Flight Aware, you were the second one to leave that morning, right after Commutair.

Unless you were in N930NC. If so, why not mention that you saw CHQ take off as well?

Something isn't adding up.